Tom Hargrave and Kegkits.com (www.ic3.gov)

[bernerbrau]

You did and thanks for the opportunity to make things right. I've not heard anything else from you so I assume the Stir Plate 3000 is working fine?

No complaints on the 3000, except I've had a bock starter sitting on it for the last 2 months that I haven't gotten around to stepping up.

 

[Beerrific]

Screw Me once, shame on you. Screw Me twice, shame on Me. (Not me, but the collective HBT Me.) Just keep that in mind.

 

[Airborneguy]

Isn't it funny how he keeps saying HE was screwed over? I hope everyone remembers what customers went through with this dude still taking orders when his communication was non-existent and nothing was being shipped.

Tx, isn't this guy pushing the line talking about his business while not being a vendor? Boot him!

 

[nukinfuts29]

Brass balls or maybe just a thick head. And anyways I did not intentionally screw anyone over. I failed and a lot of people were hurt, including me.

You seem to think that is good enough. You are using a blanket excuse to justify what is literally hundreds of screwed over customers. You weren't hurt, you are the only one who came out on top in this. Had you refunded every single dime and then shipped product out, or refunded product cost and shipped product out for the cost of shipping, then you could say you were hurt. Even then you would have simply been doing right by your customers.

The truth is you have NO leg to stand on, and NO RIGHT to be here on this forum regardless of reason or intention. You have NO RIGHT to be on here listing links to your scam artist of a "business", and your posts are a blatant insult to the intelligence of our members and our community.

If you had one ounce of caring for your customers and the homebrewing community, you would have shut down the ability to order from your websites, refused to take any more money, and filled orders and fixed your problems. But you didn't. You chose instead to pay for yesterdays problems with tomorrows money. You ran a float, and at most points along the ride you just looked at the list of pending orders and said "**** 'em".

I view your actions as criminal. You don't deserve to view this community as a guest, let alone sit there as a member and respond. I would ask how many people you had to screw to pay for that premium membership, but the truth is you screwed enough people to buy us all a premium membership.

And BTW, I decided to re-open this thread by commenting and I could have just let things lie as they were. But I believe in addressing and solving issues & I guess that's why I'm still in business.

You decided to respond in the hopes that people would forgive you and send you more money. Go away.

Isn't it funny how he keeps saying HE was screwed over? I hope everyone remembers what customers went through with this dude still taking orders when his communication was non-existent and nothing was being shipped.

Tx, isn't this guy pushing the line talking about his business while not being a vendor? Boot him!

Amen.

 

[SwampassJ]

 

[thargrav]

Isn't it funny how he keeps saying HE was screwed over? I hope everyone remembers what customers went through with this dude still taking orders when his communication was non-existent and nothing was being shipped.

Tx, isn't this guy pushing the line talking about his business while not being a vendor? Boot him!

No - I did not say I was screwed over - I did say that some customers kept product and then filed for chargebacks and then got their money back. It was part of a comment I made about people in general.

And no, I'm not drumming up new business. I don't expect anyone I hurt to ever buy from me again and I also don't see how dragging up old dirt will help my business. I only woke this thread back up by commenting to try and explain what went wrong and to warn homebrewers to watch for others going down the same path.

The bottom line is I screwed up the business. And in the process I hurt a lot of people, including myself. But that was 2 years ago, so why do you and others continue bashing me? Will this continue 5 years after the business failed (3 years from now)? Ten years after the business failed? And if the answer is "as long as your in business" then I suggest you plan for a very long run.

 

[nukinfuts29]

No - I did not say I was screwed over - I did say that some customers kept product and then filed for chargebacks and then got their money back. It was part of a comment I made about people in general.

And no, I'm not drumming up new business. I don't expect anyone I hurt to ever buy from me again and I also don't see how dragging up old dirt will help my business. I only woke this thread back up by commenting to try and explain what went wrong and to warn homebrewers to watch for others going down the same path.

The bottom line is I screwed up the business. And in the process I hurt a lot of people, including myself. But that was 2 years ago, so why do you and others continue bashing me? Will this continue 5 years after the business failed (3 years from now)? Ten years after the business failed? And if the answer is "as long as your in business" then I suggest you plan for a very long run.

How many times are you going to say this? You are one of those people that can never simply take responsibility for something. It's always someone else's fault, or there's some comment to go along with it. You're a scam artist dude, even if you did loose out what do we care? I'm sure not a single one of your victims gives a second thought about you and your "losses".

And you know what, I hope some of them did keep merchandise after they filed charge backs. ALL of your customers should have got a full refund and something to benefit from.

People like you always end up in jail, and some day it will come around on you. At least maybe you can be the guy that makes the hooch, and then you only have to be one guys girlfriend instead of the gen-pop play toy. As you put it to us, I suggest you plan for the long run.

 

[Airborneguy]

Whatever. Just take a look at the tags that show up at the bottom of this page. I know no one will ever see the words "criminal" and "scam" listed next to my name.

 

[thargrav]

You don't know me and you have never met me and yet you know exactly who I am and what I'm all about.

If I brought myself to your level I'd write about 5 paragraphs about you, etc, etc. But I don't play that way.

So, since you are obviously making this personal and I don't know you, I give up and will not post any more to this thread.

 

[nukinfuts29]

You don't know me and you have never met me and yet you know exactly who I am and what I'm all about.

If I brought myself to your level I'd write about 5 paragraphs about you, etc, etc. But I don't play that way.

So, since you are obviously making this personal and I don't know you, I give up and will not post any more to this thread.

I know you aren't talking to me, I was one of the unfortunate people who hit the checkout button on your excuse for a website.

 

[nukinfuts29]

I know you aren't talking to me, I was one of the unfortunate people who hit the checkout button on your excuse for a website.

You know, perhaps this could be a good opportunity for you. I ordered a 5 gallon used keg from you last summer (2010), and I never saw the keg or my money. Paypal told me where to go basically, and you never made it right. Quite frankly, I gave up after 7 months.

So if you are truly looking to turn things around, make it right publically here in a show of good faith. Send me the keg.

 

[Beerrific]

But that was 2 years ago, so why do you and others continue bashing me?

This is why....

You know, perhaps this could be a good opportunity for you. I ordered a 5 gallon used keg from you last summer (2010), and I never saw the keg or my money. Paypal told me where to go basically, and you never made it right. Quite frankly, I gave up after 7 months.

So if you are truly looking to turn things around, make it right publically here in a show of good faith. Send me the keg.

 

[nukinfuts29]

Well bud you may choose to do it in private, but the public wants answers. There is no reason to respond to me in the shadows, so I'm here to light it up and I will respond to you here.

This PM came in response:

We've not turned things around yet - I still owe my landlord and one supplier a lot of money and we won't be clear for at least one more year. But we are catching up. This is why I PM'd you instead of responding through the public forum. We just don't have the money to refund even 10% of the customers I hurt. Also, with all of the chargebacks and customers keeping stuff at the end I really don't know who I owe stuff to.

I don't have any used kegs in stock but I have no problem sending something else close to the same value. Just plug in the order through the web site & choose check payment. Also, I need your name so I can match the order up with you and ship it.

And BTW, did you read the Keg Cowboy posts? He is one of the resellers I was trying to warn the list about. He's also one of the "more vocal" customers I hurt.

Thanks, Tom

I have no problem ordering something and posting when you make right by it, no problem at all. That is the entire point of this discussion. You obviously have a lot to catch up on, so that I will do here in a bit and PM my information over. To be honest what I order probably won't even come close to what I spent, simply because I know what it is like to be hurting and I have no intention of making it difficult for you to take a step in the right direction.

What I don't get is calling out Keg Cowboy? They have issues, and it's a whole separate thing. Shedding light on the issues of someone else is not a good way to promote a positive image.

So with that said I will get an order in and send you the information. Don't take this post as an attack, if you are truly looking to make amends with the community this is actually in your favor.

 

[nukinfuts29]

Information sent via PM

 

[thargrav]

I did not call out Keg Cowboy specifically. Also, scan through my posts and you'll see that I never have bashed anyone else in a effort to look good. I did PM the info only to you and you copied the PM into this thread. But now that it's out, I do believe they are in trouble. They are making the same excuses I made when I was in trouble. And I believe that there is only one outcome once you get to where I was at.

I believe that some others who advertise on this list are also in trouble.

Here is the exact statement I made earlier in this thread.

And BTW, I see some other resellers advertising on this site going down the same path I went down. It's easy to see once you've been there. I won't mention who because it's not fair to them but I will say that any business that continuosly comes up with excuses for being late is in serious trouble. You know who they are.

 

[nukinfuts29]

Fair enough.

 

[Airborneguy]

If I was a paying vendor on this forum, I'd be pissed about this thread.

 

[MeatyPortion]

Yes and no.

Yes, for the reason that it seems obvious that Mr. Hargrave is using this thread as a vehicle to advertise his business.

No, because that business has such a shoddy reputation on this forum.

I think if he truly wants to make things right he should contact each customer he was unable to deliver product/return payment to and keep a running tab in this thread with verification from those customers on the status of their orders and what he has done to right each situation. Is that a bit unfair? Arguably, but so was the position he took in the past and if he truly wants to re-invent his business and make things right he'll do this. At any rate, that's my suggestion. Good luck to all.

 

[nukinfuts29]

Update:

Before I even woke up this morning I had a confirmation email with a tracking number, and the package I ordered last night for a resolution has shipped via USPS.

I will confirm when I receive it, probably Tuesday possibly Monday, but it would appear to me at least that he is making an effort. I'm but a drop in a large pond, but he has to start somewhere.

 

[pickles]

This thread needs to be deleted. This is nothing more than a shameless ploy to dupe more people in to buying from you. I was fortunate enough to get my kegs and regulator. The regulator however is complete junk! He's totally plugging all three of his sites.

 

[nukinfuts29]

This thread needs to be deleted. This is nothing more than a shameless ploy to dupe more people in to buying from you. I was fortunate enough to get my kegs and regulator. The regulator however is complete junk! He's totally plugging all three of his sites.

Did you read any of my posts?

 

[pickles]

Yeah, I read the whole thread. I'm glad you're getting a consolation prize. Should I not post my disgust for this guys ploys? The more people that speak out, the more likely it is to be deleted; which it should be.

 

[nukinfuts29]

Yeah, I read the whole thread. I'm glad you're getting a consolation prize. Should I not post my disgust for this guys ploys? The more people that speak out, the more likely it is to be deleted; which it should be.

Consolation prize? I take personal offense to that. In any event, being so understandably angry how can you not acknowledge a step in the right direction? He will probably never make it all right, but if he tries than that should count for something.

 

[pickles]

How is that offensive? You're not getting what you paid for and he wasn't offering to make it right. You outed him publicly (which I'm glad you did) and he's playing along. This guy is a scumbag! Besides, I don't understand why you needed to ask if I read your posts, seems a bit condescending. A tracking number and a prompt email aren't going to change my mind about this scam artist.

 

[Bobby_M]

Of course it makes sense to play ball with someone in a public forum. What about the hundreds of other victims who aren't around here to be the poster children for a redemption campaign?

 

[thargrav]

This is Tom again from kegkits.com.

I would love to give people I hurt what I owe them but I can't because sales are not nearly where they were when I failed. If I stopped today and gave everything I have in inventory to customers I hurt I would have nothing left and would settle with MAYBE 10% of them. And then I would have no business at all and I would still owe many thousands of dollars to suppliers and my landlord.

But sorry, I can't do that. I have a obligation to my suppliers, landlord and family to try and make this thing work.

Also you need to understand that the easiest path for me to take would have been to restart. Then many of you would be happily buying from that new company not knowing it was run by me. A accoutant friend of mine told me that thay's the only way to move on and I'm starting to believe him.

And as far as the BBB is concerned? Yes I have a F rating with them and I earned it. I'm not proud of the rating but it is what it is. But dig a little deeper into the report and you'll see that 106 complaints were filed in the last 3 years but only one complaint was filed in the last 12 months! And most of the others were filed between 1.75 and 2.5 years ago!

And as far as me using this thread to promote my business? The last thing I'd do is re-activate a old, ugly thread just to have list members beat me up. I only responded to try and explain what really happened to kegkits.com.

I know that I won't change the minds of many list members and that's OK with me. Those of you in business probably understand and those of you who have gone through tough times or have failed in business really understand.

 

[masonsjax]

Tom should be in jail for his criminal actions. Businesses fail every day. This guy deliberately continued taking orders even when he knew he could not fulfill them. We're supposed to feel sorry for him now? I work very hard for my money and I'm upset that some of it helped keep this criminal operation afloat, which for some reason has continued to exist without repercussions. I don't wish bad things on anyone, but I do expect people to be accountable for their actions.

 

[Airborneguy]

Nukinfuts, you weren't a member during the thick of this incident. A ton of members got screwed, and although it appears you were one of them, him making it right by you for a relatively small order does not fix the CRIMINAL behavior this (guy) exhibited while the incident was ongoing. As was stated by Masonsjax, he continued to take orders and process payments long after he was not even attempting to ship product, communicate with or reimburse customers. If the "great" state of Alabama did its duty, he'd currently be in jail. I believe it is very likely that he made right by whatever customers he had within the state, which stopped the local authorities from prosecuting him.

You stated in another thread that you were "in law enforcement". I've been a police officer for ten years, and I'd jump at the chance to lock this guy up for what he did. By NY laws, he committed grand larceny many times over and deserves to be prosecuted for it.

 

[thargrav]

This is Tom again from kegkits.com.

Where in any of these posts did I ask anyone to feel sorry for me? None!

Where in any of these posts did I say I was not at fault? None!

Where in any of these posts did I come up with any excuses? None!

Grand Larceny is a very strong charge that also implies intent. If you knew the law you would understand this. The business failed and I am more than willing to admit that the failure was my fault but I did not intend to hurt anyone. I also did not intentionally steal from anyone - I stopped processing orders the day I ran out of money and ran out of options.

And as far as being accountable for my actions?

I could have easily been unaccountable for my actions by filing bankruptcy against my suppliers & landlord and walking out from under over $40,000 in dedt. But no, I'm trying to do the right thing and pay them off & I have at least a year to go. I'm trying to be accountable to the debts I've created.

Also, I would love to ship everything I owe to the customers I hurt but there is simply not enough to ship. But it's obviuos from your comments that you simply don't believe this so I won't bother explaining because you will just turn explinations into excuses.

I posted the link before, but here's why I failed - again:
NON VENDOR LINK REMOVED
Thanks, Tom

 

[Beerrific]

...people I hurt ... customers I hurt

You hurt? Weird description. You really mean the people you scammed, stole from, screwed over, conned, swindled, fooled, duped, cheated, tricked, defrauded, deceived, etc.

And as far as the BBB is concerned? Yes I have a F rating with them and I earned it. I'm not proud of the rating but it is what it is. But dig a little deeper into the report and you'll see that 106 complaints were filed in the last 3 years but only one complaint was filed in the last 12 months! And most of the others were filed between 1.75 and 2.5 years ago!

Seems to me that people are getting the idea and stopped ordering from you because YOU ARE A SCAMMER. The point being you won't have any BBB ratings if no one orders from you.