To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In

[Yankeepride15]

Old school here, been 2-stage fermenting for years.

Jamil and John talk about how home brewer's fermenters have broad bottoms (unlike commercial conicals) , but what about home brewers using conical fermenters for 10 gallon batches ?
Still no harm fermenting for 4 weeks in a conical?

Also, is there still a viable yeast colony suspended in the beer after 30 days for the purpose of bottle carbonation?

As far as your question about broad bottom v conical, I think the other contributing factor was the head pressure of hundreds or thousands of gallons of beer on top of a narrowing column, which increased yeast autolysis. 10 gal home conicals don't have that pressure on the yeast, making them acceptable for use in the long single primary process.

 

[two_hearted]

So I'm doing my first batch of IPA and moved it to secondary and dry hopped after first week. How important is temperature control during the three weeks the recipe calls for in the secondary?

You sure it didn't say to ferment for 3 weeks and then dry hop in secondary vessel for one week? Once fermentation is complete, you can let your beer rise up to the low 70s without too much ill effect. What matters is that it is not swinging up and down.

 

[two_hearted]

Wow,

Just read all of this thread. Quick question. I have a basic Porter sitting in the primary. Plan on leaving there for about two months, due to my travel plans. At the end of the first month, I'd like to add some fresh mint and fresh vanilla beans that have been steeping in Cognac for a month. Can i throw it all in the primary, about 16 oz of Cognac (mint & Vanilla beans too) without harming the beer. About 16 oz of Cognac. It will be in a grain bag ( Mint and Vanilla). The cognac plus mint and vanilla will spend a month in the primary total. Opinions?

For that long I would rack off of your yeast before adding the cognac. That seems like a ton of booze to be adding. I wonder what the abv will end up at and if it will effect the yeast in suspension. Do you bottle condition or keg?

 

[Silverback23]

For that long I would rack off of your yeast before adding the cognac. That seems like a ton of booze to be adding. I wonder what the abv will end up at and if it will effect the yeast in suspension. Do you bottle condition or keg?

Yeah, I'm wondering all the same things, which is why I'm reaching out for help on this issue. I bottle condition.

What's your rational for racking to the secondary?

Thanks.

 

[Puddlethumper]

You sure it didn't say to ferment for 3 weeks and then dry hop in secondary vessel for one week? .

Yah. I read the recipe correctly. The reason I posted the message as I did is so those who had a copy of Palmer's book could, if they chose to, look at the recipe and enter their comments. From your question I must assume you either don't own the book or didn't bother to read the recipe.

 

[Darwin18]

Yah. I read the recipe correctly. The reason I posted the message as I did is so those who had a copy of Palmer's book could, if they chose to, look at the recipe and enter their comments. From your question I must assume you either don't own the book or didn't bother to read the recipe.

Are you talking about the "Victory and Chaos IPA" from How to Brew by Palmer? It's hard to know what recipe you're talking about when you don't reference it directly or post a link to it. The "Victory and Chaos IPA" recipe does say 1 week primary and 3 weeks secondary:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter19-3.html

This one doesn't reference dry hopping but it's an old recipe. Dry hopping for three weeks isn't typical. I usually go for 5 - 7 days maximum unless you like the taste of grass, then go ahead for three weeks. I'd also say that unless you really have your pitching rates down that one week in primary is likely not enough for fermentation to be complete.

 

[Clef051]

I use to transfer all the time, but now it is just a waste of time. The only time that I transfer now is if I'm saving the yeast and I'm going to dry hop the beer

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

Just a thought - isn't the whole autolysis thing in beer something of a carryover from winemaking experience? I understand that in winemaking you are much more likely to hit alcohol tolerance limits and so when primary ends you have a lot of stressed and dead yeast. For the higher ABV% wines the habit is to get the wine off the lees ASAP.

Contrast that to beermaking where the yeast are often not up against their alcohol tolerance and are basically just going dormant after the fermentables run out. If beer trub was all dead yeast no one would bother washing it, right? Most of the time there is more living yeast coming out of the carboy than going in.

 

[Denny]

Just a thought - isn't the whole autolysis thing in beer something of a carryover from winemaking experience? I understand that in winemaking you are much more likely to hit alcohol tolerance limits and so when primary ends you have a lot of stressed and dead yeast. For the higher ABV% wines the habit is to get the wine off the lees ASAP.

Contrast that to beermaking where the yeast are often not up against their alcohol tolerance and are basically just going dormant after the fermentables run out. If beer trub was all dead yeast no one would bother washing it, right? Most of the time there is more living yeast coming out of the carboy than going in.

It's more related to commercial brewing. In the use of that tall, thin (relatively) fermenters that commercial breweries use, there is tremendous pressure on the yeast. With homebrewers using short, wide fermenters, that concern is reduced or eliminated.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

How tall are these tanks? The articles I have read indicate that below 50 MPa there is no problem. 50 MPa is 493 atmospheres or about 16,000 ft or over 3 miles of water.

Hmmm...beer three miles tall....ahhhhh.....

 

[Puddlethumper]

Are you talking about the "Victory and Chaos IPA" from How to Brew by Palmer? It's hard to know what recipe you're talking about when you don't reference it directly or post a link to it. The "Victory and Chaos IPA" recipe does say 1 week primary and 3 weeks secondary:

You're right. I've posted this question in several locations with little response. Thought I did that here. Don't much like a**holes and I sure hate it when it turns out to be me.

 

[shotgunsteve]

Hey folks, I've read through most of this thread and haven't seen an answer to my question.

I'd like , but I'm concerned about sanitation. In my secondary carboy, I have an airlock and do not fear the beer getting infected. But my primary is just a large bucket with a lid... should I put this lid on tight?

Usually I leave the lid loose for the few days the beer is in the primary before transferring to the carboy.

To complicate, sometimes my batch bubbles over and leaves a huge mess, which must only increase the likelihood of a wild yeast or something taking hold...

 

[Homercidal]

Hey folks, I've read through most of this thread and haven't seen an answer to my question.

I'd like , but I'm concerned about sanitation. In my secondary carboy, I have an airlock and do not fear the beer getting infected. But my primary is just a large bucket with a lid... should I put this lid on tight?

Usually I leave the lid loose for the few days the beer is in the primary before transferring to the carboy.

To complicate, sometimes my batch bubbles over and leaves a huge mess, which must only increase the likelihood of a wild yeast or something taking hold...

First, it's ok to leave the lid loose to allow the Co2 to escape. But some people have been known to get fruit flies in their bucket because the gap was big enough to let them in. If you are not worried about fruit flies, then have at!

Second, if you are having blow off problems you need to investigate a "BLOW OFF TUBE" which would help solve the problem of a blow off making a mess. This device would require the lid to be tight so the gunk doesn't escape past the lid seal, but it doesn't have to be air tight.

The important thing to understand here is that bacteria and stuff like that aren't flying around under their own power looking for food. They are carried around on other things and by wind currents. The other things are like saliva, fingers, dust, grain, etc.

They can't fly UP into your fermenter!

So the air lock helps to keep Oxygen from oxidizing your beer, and as a secondary function can help keep bacteria from getting in there as well. But you don't need an airlock to keep bacteria out, you only need to keep stuff from FALLING INTO your fermenter. So a loose lid is ok.

In actuality, it's kind of hard for bacteria to contaminate a fermentor under normal conditions. Common practices such as sanitizing equipment (That could have collected bacteria from sitting around), your hands (picking up bacteria form your mouth, and from touching stuff that sat around), and of course not opening up your fermentor in places where there are a lot of bacteria such as near your grain, especially crushed grain which is floury, near furnace vents (Lots of air currents that can push bacteria into an opened fermentor).

In general it's safe and common to open a fermentor for short periods to rack or check gravity. The odds of getting enough bacteria into the fermentor to grow into a real infection is very small. After the fermentation is under way, there is enough alcohol to help prevent spoilage, and once it's done, there is a LOT less food for the bacteria to consume as well.

In summary my advice is to feel free to close the lid and use a blow off tube to prevent the gunk from making a mess.

You may wish to double check your fermentation temps. Blow off can happen at nearly any temperature, but I've noticed that since I got my temps down in the better range (low to mid 60s) I've gotten a lot less blow off (for normal gravity beers) and cleaner tasting beers.

 

[shotgunsteve]

Wow thanks Homercidal for the quick and detailed response!

I usually don't have blowoff problems, but for the first time added a few cups of malt extract in the primary to juice the finished product alc % - I'm guessing this may be why. the temp in the basement sits between 66-69.

Great advice, I'll invest in a blowoff tube with bung which can easily be replaced with an airlock.

 

[JustLooking]

... for the first time added a few cups of malt extract in the primary to juice the finished product alc % ...

 

[Homercidal]

Wow thanks Homercidal for the quick and detailed response!

I usually don't have blowoff problems, but for the first time added a few cups of malt extract in the primary to juice the finished product alc % - I'm guessing this may be why. the temp in the basement sits between 66-69.

Great advice, I'll invest in a blowoff tube with bung which can easily be replaced with an airlock.

Ok, but you did mix with water and boil a little bit before adding, right? You know, to sanitize it??

And 66-69 is not bad, but remember that you are measuring ambient air temp. The fermentation process can add 5 degrees or more when it's really going. It wouldn't be bad to use a swamp cooler with a few frozen soda bottles to keep it down in that range during the high tide of fermentation.

Then again, if you are happy with the results you get, no worries!

 

[shotgunsteve]

haha yes it was sanitized in boiling water before adding. should have clarified and thanks for checking.

I also was not clear on the temperature, I stated the temperature of the fermenting bucket 3 days in, not the basement. My bad.

Looking forward to seeing what the difference of skipping secondary with my own eyes!

 

[hbtasdfg]

The secondary myth is a way to increase sales of glass carboys in "everything you need" kits which have a lot of profit margin.

 

[JustLooking]

You wouldn't happen to be wearing a foil hat?

 

[cheddarhed3]

Wow, this is a great thread, especially for newbies like me. I have yet to venture into BIG beers and have a Chinook IPA in primary for about a week now as I write this. I'm gonna stay outta the secondary and add the 2 oz Chinook hops for dry hop in a sanitized muslim bag straight to the bucket. At this stage in my brewing "career" I'm all about reducing exposure times and experimentation. Thanks for all the good info guys. Cheers.

 

[Inkguy]

This is a very interesting thread to me, because of points made regarding secondary being an old school of thought due to the yeast available.
I started brewing in 1999, using Dave Miller's Complete Handbook of Brewing, and he wrote over and over about autolysis. All the recipes mentioned packets - I assume dry yeast. So secondary was the way to avoid autolysis, by getting the beer off this presumably inferior quality yeast.
I have always used liquid - except on a few occasions when dry was required - so it's interesting to learn that there probably was never an issue, and that 70+ batches with secondary were unnecessary. I never thought to question the logic of secondary, and never thought about the layer of yeast in secondary being wasted, as it would have been useful to clean and attenuate the beer in primary. Clear beer is not too much of an issue for me, both in not having an issue but also not caring, but the tight yeast cake and added attenuation are. I'm sure my recent issue with bottle bombs is from just this subject - racking to secondary instead of leaving it in primary, then bottling too soon, so that there is still sugar that the yeast can ferment, in addition to the priming sugar.
Now it all makes sense: brewers make wort; yeast makes beer, so let them do their thing.
I have a mild fermenting on a 1469 yeast cake that has a weird mead-y smell, so I am all for leaving it as long as possible to let the yeast clean it up. It fermented out in about 3 days at 70, and filled my airlock for about a day and a half, so I'm sure that it was too warm and too short a time. It's also why I usually stick to White Labs: never have these issues with temperature/taste/smell. But that's another topic.

 

[Puddlethumper]

This is a very interesting thread to me, because of points made regarding secondary being an old school of thought due to the yeast available.
I started brewing in 1999, using Dave Miller's Complete Handbook of Brewing, and he wrote over and over about autolysis. All the recipes mentioned packets - I assume dry yeast. So secondary was the way to avoid autolysis, by getting the beer off this presumably inferior quality yeast..

In his latest book "Brew Like a Pro" (c2012 Storey Publishing) Dave Miller revisits this point. He still uses a secondary but for a different reason. He says that autolysis is probably a non-issue at this time. His secondary is used as "settling tank".

It becomes a choice of use of a secondary vs. filtering vs. cold crashing the beer. If you have a filtration system you can draw directly from the fermenter to the bottling bucket or keg. (He does point out that there are some strong opinions about benefits/concerns related to filtration). To allow a beer to drop clear naturally may take some time so moving the beer to a smaller vessel for this period will free up a fermenter, hence the use of a 5 gal. bucket or carboy as a "settling tank". Natural clearing can be accelerated by cold crashing which can be accomplished in either the primary fermenter or in a secondary, depending on the homebrewer's situation and preference.

 

[kidmeatball]

I'm a little concerned to leave my beer in the primary for so long because it has a poor seal on the lid. Its just a huge bucket with a well fitted, but not sealed lid. I'm concerned it will have too much headroom and therefore too much oxygen will get at it. Maybe my next batch I'll rig up the lid with an airlock and just wrap the lid down with some saran wrap. For now, the plan is about a week primary, 10 - 14 days secondary, bottle for three.

 

[RM-MN]

I'm a little concerned to leave my beer in the primary for so long because it has a poor seal on the lid. Its just a huge bucket with a well fitted, but not sealed lid. I'm concerned it will have too much headroom and therefore too much oxygen will get at it. Maybe my next batch I'll rig up the lid with an airlock and just wrap the lid down with some saran wrap. For now, the plan is about a week primary, 10 - 14 days secondary, bottle for three.

Carbon dioxide fills that space between the lid and your beer and it is heavier than air. Unless you disturb it by opening and closing it a bunch your beer will still have that CO2 and no oxidation will occur. :rockin:

You're more likely to introduce oxygen during the transfer to the secondary than by leaving the beer in the primary.

 

[mjcoss]

I read through *most* of the many pages, and I'm still not sure what the *right* answer is. I am clearly in the camp of don't use a secondary unless there is a clear reason to do so. To me, those reasons are
1) I adding something (dry hop, fruit, etc) to the beer, or
2) it's a big beer and will be sitting for a long time

Just brewed a Scottish Wee-Heavy ale, made a 2 L starter, and put it in the primary bucket. Now I'd be of the opinion, that after a month in the primary, I would move it to a secondary to finish for the next 3 months or so.

Is this reasonable or is the consensus that it will be fine sitting in the primary for 4 months?

 

[torque2k]

I read through *most* of the many pages, and I'm still not sure what the *right* answer is. I am clearly in the camp of don't use a secondary unless there is a clear reason to do so. To me, those reasons are
1) I adding something (dry hop, fruit, etc) to the beer, or
2) it's a big beer and will be sitting for a long time

Just brewed a Scottish Wee-Heavy ale, made a 2 L starter, and put it in the primary bucket. Now I'd be of the opinion, that after a month in the primary, I would move it to a secondary to finish for the next 3 months or so.

Is this reasonable or is the consensus that it will be fine sitting in the primary for 4 months?

Even for a Wee Heavy, that sounds like a LONG time in ANY container. Personally, I would leave it in the primary for up to 1.5 months (since it's not dry-hopped), then transfer to bottles as I don't/can't keg (yet). In the bottles for at least a month, then drinky drinky. I've had a wee heavy sit in bottles for six months, and they come out clean and with no hot alcohol burn, very smooth. That way, like it's been mentioned, you're able to free up a fermenter for the next batch which DOESN'T need to sit for long periods. You're still bottling with a bit of yeast in suspension, so cleanup will still happen in the bottle.

I will say, though, that I now only do primary in plastic carboys, never buckets. It seems safer to me for long periods, less likely to allow air in (yes, even with a bed of CO2, there's bound to be "breathing" caused by back pressure, such as when outside doors are opened and closed). That's just an opinion, though. Why not try it out, see how it works for you? If you don't like how it came out, chalk it up to experience. Come back and let us know how it worked!

 

[Puddlethumper]

A point that seems to be missed in this discussion is the permeability of the plastic bucket/carboy to oxygen. PET and polycarbobate are actually fairly permeable to O2 and that is where we need to be concerned about getting oxidized beer. If we are going to leave the beer in any vessel for a long time that vessel should be HDPE, glass or stainless.

I've been doing quite a bit of reading lately and I've spoken to a couple professional brewers in my area. From what I am learning very few professional brewers leave their beer in primary for more time than needed to complete the fermentation process --- 8-14 days max. After that initial fermentation period it is pretty much standard practice to move the beer to a "settling" or "bright" tank. This move gets the beer off the dead yeast pack and allows the opportunity to dry hop and/or add finings if desired. After a few days the beer is almost always cold crashed to remove chill haze and then filtered, and kegged or bottled.

We've been talking here about using a "secondary" fermenter when, in fact secondary fermentation is not a brewing activity -- it is a winemaking process. And why do winemakers choose to secondary? To reduce the chance of oxidation!

 

[BigFloyd]

A point that seems to be missed in this discussion is the permeability of the plastic bucket/carboy to oxygen. PET and polycarbobate are actually fairly permeable to O2 and that is where we need to be concerned about getting oxidized beer. If we are going to leave the beer in any vessel for a long time that vessel should be HDPE, glass or stainless.

I've been doing quite a bit of reading lately and I've spoken to a couple professional brewers in my area. From what I am learning very few professional brewers leave their beer in primary for more time than needed to complete the fermentation process --- 8-14 days max. After that initial fermentation period it is pretty much standard practice to move the beer to a "settling" or "bright" tank. This move gets the beer off the dead yeast pack and allows the opportunity to dry hop and/or add finings if desired. After a few days the beer is almost always cold crashed to remove chill haze and then filtered, and kegged or bottled.

We've been talking here about using a "secondary" fermenter when, in fact secondary fermentation is not a brewing activity -- it is a winemaking process. And why do winemakers choose to secondary? To reduce the chance of oxidation!

I understand your point Puddle, but if you're talking about leaving the beer in a plastic bucket primary for 3-4 weeks, O2 permeability has been shown to be a complete non-issue. It's really better to leave it and maybe pick up a miniscule amount of O2 than to run it through a siphon and very likely pick up a whole lot more. Long-term aging is, of course, a perfectly valid reason to get it off the yeast and into a non-permeable vessel.

The valid reasons that the commercial guys move the beer off the cake ASAP has been hashed and re-hashed here. Fortunately for us, their peculiar considerations in that regard are not worries at all for us. Lots of us make "bright" (clear) beer with no bright tank at all.

It is troubling that some of the kit instructions (Brewers Best comes to mind) still have new brewers rushing their beer (even stouts!) off the yeast cake in just a week, sometimes resulting in problems that we see posted here. I've also tasted a few of those oxidized beers at our local meetings since our LHBS sells those kits. I do wish that they would update those instructions. I tell our newer folks to toss them in the trash and provide them a substitute instruction sheet.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I understand your point Puddle, but if you're talking about leaving the beer in a Lots of us make "bright" (clear) beer with no bright tank at all.

It is troubling that some of the kit instructions (Brewers Best comes to mind) still have new brewers rushing their beer (even stouts!) off the yeast cake in just a week,

Having run into that issue when I was starting out I couldn't agree more. The kit makers aren't doing their customers or the hobby justice when they start new brewers off on the wrong foot by giving them poor instructions from the get-go.

The good news is that these kits, even with the poor instructions, still usually yield a pretty decent beer. The neophyte brewer only becomes aware of the faults in his process if he gets serious about brewing.

And, for what its worth, I bought a jug of an excellent oatmeal stout from a microbrewery not far from here. I asked the brewer about his process and he said he usually leaves it in primary for no more than 14 days.

 

[Puddlethumper]

It's really better to leave it and maybe pick up a miniscule amount of O2 than to run it through a siphon and very likely pick up a whole lot more. ]

How does a liquid gain oxygen through siphoning? I'm no chemist so I'm totally open to learning on this, but quite frankly, I can't see it.