To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In

[Scooby_Brew]

Every time I rack the beer from the primary into the next vessel I always somehow disturb the slurry on the bottom and land up with a hazy beer. I use an auto siphon. That's why I like to use the secondary, I just have a hard time getting a clear beer without it.

 

[Denny]

I'm with you, Scooby, and it's not like I haven't done the 4 weeks in primary thing too. But I'm not dogmatic about it, I'm pragmatic...I do what works. If I'm not getting the clearing I want in primary, I have no problem with racking to a secondary. It's results that count, not rules.

 

[Walker]

I'm going to kick this horse again.....

I have always used secondaries, ever since I started brewing. The seed of doubt was planted in my head on this forum that perhaps it isn't worth it. I continued to use them anyway because I needed things in the 5 gallon carboys so that I could put three of them into my ferm chamber at the same time (not possible with three 6.5's).

However, I finally found my "stride" with my brewing schedule and now really need two fermenters in the fridge at the same time, so I decided to cast the secondaries aside and roll for a while. The last two batches I have kegged and and tapped plus one more batch in the fermenter are my "no secondary" experiments.

I am not pleased.

My new beers are significantly less clear after 6 weeks (4 weeks in primary @ 65*F, 2 weeks in keg @ about 45*F) when compared to the batches that I secondaried (2 weeks in primary, 2 weeks secondary, 2 weeks in keg).

That settles the debate for me personally.

 

[ben229]

So it all boils down to clairity?

 

[Walker]

I can't really address the flavor... yet.

Let me clarify about clarity. I always get chill haze in my beers for the first couple weeks at serving temp. After that they will clear up completely. However, the beers I have now that I did not secondary have more than just chill haze issues going on; They still have a lot of yeast left in suspension.

I'm sure they will eventually clear, but since they are in kegs already, I'll be sucking yeast cake into my glass for a while before that happens. Maybe I should I have left them in primary longer than a month, but I am not going to make a change to my process that will require me to wait even longer for my yeast to settle.

So, I can't comment on whether the flavor will eventually be better or worse, because right now these things just taste like yeast.

So, I guess my opinion is that not using a secondary (for me) seems to mean that I need to keep my beers in fermenters longer than 1 month. Using a secondary gets me where I want in just 1 month, so I am going to keep using them.

 

[Grasslands]

Would the above situation be improved if you racked to a tertiary - say a bottling bucket - instead of directly into the keg from the primary? Or would you be convinced that there'd still be too much yeast in suspension -ultimately hindering clarity?

 

[Walker]

Would the above situation be improved if you racked to a tertiary - say a bottling bucket - instead of directly into the keg from the primary? Or would you be convinced that there'd still be too much yeast in suspension -ultimately hindering clarity?

I'm not following you here. If I rack from primary into some other container before going to the keg, then that other container is a "secondary".... which is what I prefer to do.

 

[Grasslands]

I'm not following you here. If I rack from primary into some other container before going to the keg, then that other container is a "secondary".... which is what I prefer to do.

Well, I guess technically it'd be a secondary. When I think of using a secondary, I usually think it in terms of conditioning for a period of time, rather than immediately into the keg right afterwards.

Maybe a temporary-secondary?

 

[Walker]

Well, I guess technically it'd be a secondary. When I think of using a secondary, I usually think it in terms of conditioning for a period of time, rather than immediately into the keg right afterwards.

Maybe a temporary-secondary?

Oh... Ok. I see what you mean.

The only way racking into something before the keg will help is if you give it some time to let the yeast settle before moving into the keg. "Immediately" moving into the keg won't really do anything.

I can literally watch the beer clear when I use a secondary. A couple of days after racking I start to accumulate sediment on the bottom and I can watch a line basically move down the carboy where there is cloudy beer towards the bottom and much clearer beer at the top.

When I was in the middle of these experiments with no secondaries, I had two beers in the ferm chamber that were less than 1 week apart in the process. One went to secondary as normal (this was the 'older' beer) and the other was left in primary. I could see the one in secondary clearing as described above, but the one in primary did not follow suite.

 

[Denny]

I can literally watch the beer clear when I use a secondary. A couple of days after racking I start to accumulate sediment on the bottom and I can watch a line basically move down the carboy where there is cloudy beer towards the bottom and much clearer beer at the top.

That's the same thing that drove me back to using a secondary more often than not.

 

[Brewham]

I wonder why the yeast would drop faster just because it is in a new bucket. Wouldn't it drop just as fast in the primary? What would cause the yeast to remain in suspension longer in the primary that it would in a new bucket?

I am not arguing with your results - just wondering why that would be. I always thought he purpose of the secondary was to get off the yeast cake and trub. It really had nothing to do with making the beer appear clearer.

 

[Walker]

I wonder why the yeast would drop faster just because it is in a new bucket. Wouldn't it drop just as fast in the primary? What would cause the yeast to remain in suspension longer in the primary that it would in a new bucket?

I am not arguing with your results - just wondering why that would be. I always thought he purpose of the secondary was to get off the yeast cake and trub. It really had nothing to do with making the beer appear clearer.

I honestly have no idea why it would be this way. I couldn't think of any reason why it would settle faster in a secondary than in a primary, which is why I went ahead and tried it to see what happened.

Maybe my results are not typical, but I did at least try the no-secondary with more than one batch before forming my opinion.

 

[joety]

I don't know if this is helpful, but in winemaking you tend to rack the wine back and forth multiple times in an effort to "polish" it. I have not made wine in years, but I seem to recall that clarification was a primary reason for doing this.

 

[Denny]

I honestly have no idea why it would be this way. I couldn't think of any reason why it would settle faster in a secondary than in a primary, which is why I went ahead and tried it to see what happened.

Maybe my results are not typical, but I did at least try the no-secondary with more than one batch before forming my opinion.

I did the no secondary thing for 2-3 years before deciding to try secondary again. I think it has something to do with the physical motion of moving the beer to secondary, but I have no science to back that up.

 

[Kahuna]

A couple of years ago, I tried this experiment: I brewed 10 gallons and split it evenly between two carboys. One I left in a primary for four weeks and the other I moved to secondary after two weeks. Both were kegged at four weeks, conditioned on CO2 for three weeks and brought to a homebrew club meeting for a blind tasting.

There were some subtle differences between the two. Half the club preferred the primary only, the other half the secondary version. What was interesting was that a couple of our most vocal "Primary Only" advocates liked the secondary version better and one of our Secondary advocates liked the "primary only" better.

 

[Starderup]

I've not heard that four weeks is standard here. I've heard minimum 10-11 days, preferably three weeks. I think the commentary has also said if you leave it up to four weeks nor worries about autolysis.

I just bottled an American Wheat on August 1st that was in the plastic primary bucket for almost six weeks. Forget autolysis. It may exist, but don't worry about it. Indulge your yeast. They keep working long after the enclosed directions tell you.
This American Wheat is so clear, it is amazing. Now, I know you should pour 2/3s of it, swirl and pour the rest, but I can't bring myself to do it. You have probably seen pics of Kristallweizen. This beer is almost that clear.

 

[Rick500]

I just won second place in competition with a barleywine that was in primary on the yeast for about 16 weeks. No worries at all.

 

[BillyBroas]

I just bottled an American Wheat on August 1st that was in the plastic primary bucket for almost six weeks. Forget autolysis. It may exist, but don't worry about it. Indulge your yeast. They keep working long after the enclosed directions tell you.
This American Wheat is so clear, it is amazing. Now, I know you should pour 2/3s of it, swirl and pour the rest, but I can't bring myself to do it. You have probably seen pics of Kristallweizen. This beer is almost that clear.

I just won second place in competition with a barleywine that was in primary on the yeast for about 16 weeks. No worries at all.

This is great guys, and congrats on the medal Rick. I just popped open my APA which was in the primary for 5 weeks - crystal clear

 

[borealis]

Has anyone observed that the type of yeast makes a difference? I've been doing the one month primary and have liked the results, but I do notice a difference in the sediment at the bottom of my bottles depending on the yeast that I have used. Some is much more compact and some is easier to disturb when pouring. I know that yeasts have different flocculation attributes, but am wondering if this plays a role in this discussion in terms of clarity. Thanks.

 

[Dziuggy]

just read fthough all of this. i just brewed belgian strong pale, on monday now trying to decide on fermentation schedule. it seems like lots of people like primary only, so i am inclined to do that (especialy this being big beer - sg 1.085 or so)

i bottle for the time beeing and most proponents of primary only seem to keg. so is it ok to leave it in primary for 3-4 weeks and then bottle? or should i leave it longer in the primary.

cheers

 

[BmillaTheBrewzilla]

i bottle for the time beeing and most proponents of primary only seem to keg. so is it ok to leave it in primary for 3-4 weeks and then bottle? or should i leave it longer in the primary.

cheers

This is what I have done for my last several batches and I have been very happy with the results. I am sold on the "no secondary" thing- and I always bottle.

 

[Dziuggy]

I will just say that I use a secondary for every beer that is not a wheat. 2 or 3 weeks in primary and one week in secondary on gelatin and polyclar. Any dry hopping is done in the secondary with polyclar and gelatin and pellets.

I seem to always get some haze if I don't use a secondary. It's bothersome that people chest thump and declare 27 weeks in primary MAKES BETTER BEER.

I have 9 ribbons in the last year (including 1st place HBT Hefe out of 28 beers) and one Best of Show for an American Lager out of 90 beers. I am not a great brewer like Jamil or Denny but my beers are good, IMO, and I use a secondary.

well to each his own.

i can see that some people see benefits of secondary, mainly clearer beer.

i just got this bug recently and am much more concerned with my technique and taste of my beers. so at this point i dont see benefit of secondary for my purpose.

also from reading a lot it seams that everyone has their own way, and there is no wrong one. just like you posted you succses in winning someone else did who does not do secondary. so i think brewer is more important than steps taken.

i like the RDWHAHB attitude, and plan doing just that. i like to get perfect results but after much reserch it looks like, there is so many variables that you just have to figure out what works for you, and don't get coaght up in doing things "the right" way

this site is amazing, but i dont thik you can take things word byy word as it seems different things work for different people

cheers!! you guys rock

 

[Starderup]

just read fthough all of this. i just brewed belgian strong pale, on monday now trying to decide on fermentation schedule. it seems like lots of people like primary only, so i am inclined to do that (especialy this being big beer - sg 1.085 or so)

i bottle for the time beeing and most proponents of primary only seem to keg. so is it ok to leave it in primary for 3-4 weeks and then bottle? or should i leave it longer in the primary.

cheers

I don't keg and i can definitely recommend leaving it in the primary for at least 4 weeks. For a big beer like that one, you may want to put it in a secondary after that, or just let it sit in the bottle for a good 6-9 months.

 

[PassionBeer]

If the trick is to not use your calendar as a schedule for primary-to-secondary transfer, how can you get a gravity reading without opening the primary bucket and releasing that CO2? Isn't the whole point to keep that CO2 blanket there until you're ready to move to secondary?

My first beer I just used the airlock as the guide, when it slowed, a lot, I transferred. But I did it before it finished fermentation.

Any advice for my next batch based upon my techniques?

 

[BillyBroas]

If the trick is to not use your calendar as a schedule for primary-to-secondary transfer, how can you get a gravity reading without opening the primary bucket and releasing that CO2? Isn't the whole point to keep that CO2 blanket there until you're ready to move to secondary?

My first beer I just used the airlock as the guide, when it slowed, a lot, I transferred. But I did it before it finished fermentation.

Any advice for my next batch based upon my techniques?

C02 is heavier than air so you're not going to lose the whole blanket when you take a gravity reading. The beer will also keep giving off CO2 to reestablish the blanket. So yes, open it up and take a gravity reading while trying to disturb the beer as little as possible. When the reading stays the same over the course of a few days, fermentation is over. What we are advocating here, however, is that additional time in the fermenter will help to clean up your beer after fermentation is over.

 

[BillyBroas]

After reading a bunch of "I still use a secondary" posts on here I just want to point out that I didn't start this thread to say that an long primary/no secondary is hands down better than using a secondary. I posted to debunk the myth about autolysis and the fears that many brewers have about leaving their beer on the yeast cake. Many of us have found that the no secondary results in better beer, while others have found the opposite.

Do whatever works for you. There is no single way to brew, but at least give the long primary a shot and don't be scared of the autolysis boogeyman. Mr. Palmer is responsible for much of this fear, but has has corrected himself, which is why I posted his conversation with Jamil.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

If the trick is to not use your calendar as a schedule for primary-to-secondary transfer, how can you get a gravity reading without opening the primary bucket and releasing that CO2? Isn't the whole point to keep that CO2 blanket there until you're ready to move to secondary?

My first beer I just used the airlock as the guide, when it slowed, a lot, I transferred. But I did it before it finished fermentation.

Any advice for my next batch based upon my techniques?

I would just give the beer enough time to finish fermenting, then rack it to secondary and catch a sample as I get the siphon going. If going to a secondary I don't see much point in taking a gravity reading first.

I know lots of folks say don't go by calendar but most properly pitched/aerated ales should reach terminal gravity within a week easy. And most of us intend to primary for longer than that. So I don't see the need to take a gravity reading before racking to a secondary if you've primaried for a couple of weeks or more. After a couple of weeks the FG of most ales isn't going any lower (whether it 'finished' or not), so just rack it and catch a sample along the way.

 

[Denny]

i bottle for the time beeing and most proponents of primary only seem to keg. so is it ok to leave it in primary for 3-4 weeks and then bottle? or should i leave it longer in the primary.

cheers

Perfectly fine to go 3-4 weeks in primary. If you primary in a bucket, I wouldn't go a lot longer than that. If you primary in SS or glass, you can give it more time if you want to.

 

[Starderup]

If the trick is to not use your calendar as a schedule for primary-to-secondary transfer, how can you get a gravity reading without opening the primary bucket and releasing that CO2? Isn't the whole point to keep that CO2 blanket there until you're ready to move to secondary?

My first beer I just used the airlock as the guide, when it slowed, a lot, I transferred. But I did it before it finished fermentation.

Any advice for my next batch based upon my techniques?

First advice is to not use the airlock for anything other than releasing pressure. Unless you are positive your fermentation vessel is totally airtight, it is useless.
Secondly, don't use a secondary.

 

[Starderup]

After reading a bunch of "I still use a secondary" posts on here I just want to point out that I didn't start this thread to say that an long primary/no secondary is hands down better than using a secondary. I posted to debunk the myth about autolysis and the fears that many brewers have about leaving their beer on the yeast cake. Many of us have found that the no secondary results in better beer, while others have found the opposite.

Do whatever works for you. There is no single way to brew, but at least give the long primary a shot and don't be scared of the autolysis boogeyman. Mr. Palmer is responsible for much of this fear, but has has corrected himself, which is why I posted his conversation with Jamil.

I am totally sold on leaving the beer in the primary for 4-6 weeks. My beers are amazingly clear now. An added bonus is one less container to clean, and less exposure to contaminants.