To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In

[dndlyon]

IIRC, John and Jamil also spoke about leaving in the primary. Stating it was not necessary to leave beer in the primary more than 2 weeks, then bottling (as opposed to 4 weeks which has been a standard line here). May have even been on the same podcast. I believe it was the most recent one on bottling and kegging.

Glad you mentioned this! I'm new, hooked, and impatient I need those buckets back so I can make more!

I heard / read somewhere:
**1 week in primary, 2 weeks in secondary, 3 weeks in the bottle, then into the fridge. If you don't secondary, then 2 weeks in the secondary and 3 weeks in the bottle.

Then I start reading more and it seems people are going 4 weeks in primary on average. So, here's the question: What is the minimum time in the bucket if you don't secondary? I know that the real answer is, "the beer will tell you". But I don't know my beer well enough yet. In general, I bottle when the hydrometer reading is steady for several days. What else do you take into account when you bottle - for example - bottle when the hydrometer reading is steady, the beer is clear, and it is a full moon on Thursday?

Thanks for your thoughts! I'm learning a lot here just lurking around.

 

[Revvy]

Glad you mentioned this! I'm new, hooked, and impatient I need those buckets back so I can make more!

I heard / read somewhere:
**1 week in primary, 2 weeks in secondary, 3 weeks in the bottle, then into the fridge. If you don't secondary, then 2 weeks in the secondary and 3 weeks in the bottle.

That doesn't factor in the lag time that often happens to our yeast (as illustrated by the "Fermentation can take 72 hours...." thread. )

If you have a 3 day lag time while the yeast is reproducing, and then arbitrarily decide to rack your beer on the 7th day, you are racking with only 4 days or so of fermentation and more than likely racking way too soon.

You see many threads were new brewers who do that panic becausue suddenly they see this ugly growth on top of their beer after a couple days in secondary. That growth we end up telling them after they post a picture is a krausen and it's because it wasn't finished fermenting to begin with, and got kicked up agin by racking.

OR they post after a week or two in secondary that their beer is stuck somewhere between 1.030 and 1.020....and we tell them that happened because they again racked too soon. and left the yeast they needed to finish the beer behind....

Or they rack over when there is still even a krauzen on top.

So I don't believe in using the 1-2-3 method unless you are counting 1 on the day you actually see a krauzened formed on top of their beer.

In Mr Wizard's colum in BYO awhile back he made an interesting analogy about brewing and baking....He said that egg timers are all well and good in the baking process but they only provide a "rule of thumb" as to when something is ready...recipes, oven types, heck even atmospheric conditions, STILL have more bearing on when a cake is ready than the time it says it will be done in the cook book. You STILL have to stick a toothpick in the center and pull it out to see if truly the cake is ready.....otherwise you may end up with a raw cake....

Not too different from our beers....We can have a rough idea when our beer is ready (or use the 1-2-3 rule which, like I said, doesn't factor in things like yeast lag time or even ambient temp during fermentation and do things to our beer willy nilly, like moving it too early, or thinking our beer is going to be drinkable at 3 weeks....but unless we actually stick "our toothpick" (the hydrometer) in and let it tell us when the yeasties are finished...we too can "f" our beer up.

You can't really do something arbitrarily, you have to learn to "read" your beers, the hydrometer is the best way to do that.

For me, the earliest I would leave my beer in primary is 14 days, but that's to rack to secondary for another two weeks or more if I'm adding something.

My aim is to make the best beer possible, so I am not trying to rush my beers through. I brew enough to have a huge pipeline, so if my beers average 2 months from grain to glass, and win me medals, I'm not going to change.

My answer to those folks who say they want to free up their primaries so they rush their beer through, I say, get more primaries. Buckets are cheap.

 

[zuesy]

My answer to those folks who say they want to free up their primaries so they rush their beer through, I say, get more primaries. Buckets are cheap.

My wife asked if I wanted another carboy for Xmas; I said "Hell no woman! Get me more buckets!"

 

[joety]

I've not heard that four weeks is standard here. I've heard minimum 10-11 days, preferably three weeks. I think the commentary has also said if you leave it up to four weeks nor worries about autolysis.

 

[Revvy]

My wife asked if I wanted another carboy for Xmas; I said "Hell no woman! Get me more buckets!"

You have a helluvawoman there!

I've not heard that four weeks is standard here. I've heard minimum 10-11 days, preferably three weeks. I think the commentary has also said if you leave it up to four weeks nor worries about autolysis.

You must not have been reading too many of the discussions about it then. 3-4 weeks is pretty much the standard around here for those who don't primary. Though few do 2-3 months as well.

 

[joety]

You have a helluvawoman there!



You must not have been reading too many of the discussions about it then. 3-4 weeks is pretty much the standard around here for those who don't primary. Though few do 2-3 months as well.

I assume you mean those who don't secondary. Yes, four on the outside, but generally what I've seen is three, including posts from you.

 

[samc]

On average for me 10 days primary, 5 days cold crash primary, into serving keg and 2 weeks on CO2. Then start tasting and usually it's pretty good at that point but gets better 6-8 weeks in total. Then the second 5 gallons which has been waiting patiently for me several more months gets dry hop if needed and is as good as anything you would want to drink.

 

[markcurling]

Having read a lot on this forum I'm increasing to 3 week primaries. My fermenter is a bucket with a non-airtight lid (i.e. no airlocks, blow-off tubes etc), is oxygen contamination likely to be a problem in this set up given the low yeast activity after 3 weeks?

 

[tamoore]

I've been going 3 weeks all in primary, dry hopping the last week before a cold crash. I think I'm going to change it up a bit and dry hop at the end of week one, then two more weeks on the hops before the cold crash.

I'm still trying to refine my process.

 

[Denny]

I heard / read somewhere:
**1 week in primary, 2 weeks in secondary, 3 weeks in the bottle, then into the fridge. If you don't secondary, then 2 weeks in the secondary and 3 weeks in the bottle.

Let the beer make the schedule, not the calendar.

 

[j1laskey]

I have gone up to a month in primary then transferred to secondary for two weeks....and it tasted like it smelled....DELICOUS

Secretion Brewery

 

[dndlyon]

You can't really do something arbitrarily, you have to learn to "read" your beers, the hydrometer is the best way to do that.



My aim is to make the best beer possible, so I am not trying to rush my beers through. I brew enough to have a huge pipeline, so if my beers average 2 months from grain to glass, and win me medals, I'm not going to change.

My answer to those folks who say they want to free up their primaries so they rush their beer through, I say, get more primaries. Buckets are cheap.

As a microbiologist, I can testify that the wee beasties do things in their own time and way - so absolutely - I need to learn how to "read" my beer and you have all given me some great comments to think about (greatly appreciated!).

I guess I'm just the typical newb - too interested in what kinds of things I can do to the brew (some intentional and some not so intentional) that I am spending all of my time worrying about 1> what I did wrong, 2> what I forgot to do, 3> how it's going to taste, 4> what I can do different next time, and most importantly 5> how many buckets I can fit in the "beer room" before the husband blows his top and tosses me and the beer out in the garage (maybe I've got an "in" though because I brew the beer!)

Off to get more primaries! Thanks for all the input!

 

[jjwineaux]

CRAP! I am confused (again)...
Per my LHBS: he recommended that after 9 DAYS I needed to decide whether to go to secondary (which he confirmed wasnt necessary) OR bottle it and condition for the next 4 weeks. I had normal brewing conditions (at least that is what I have summized after a bunch of questions) and opted to bottle it up. I filled two plastic bottles during my bottling and they are firming up nicely....that part that confuses me is that the lengths of time y'all are discussing are much longer than what I was advised. BTW, the LHBS recommended this time line so that I would not get the plastic glove flavor from the spent yeast. I love this guy- he is old school and has been around for decades, but I am really confused....

 

[Revvy]

... the LHBS recommended this time line so that I would not get the plastic glove flavor from the spent yeast. .

But's that's what we're talking about, that doesn't happen these days, our yeast is much healthier than it was back in the day.

 

[jjwineaux]

But's that's what we're talking about, that doesn't happen these days, our yeast is much healthier than it was back in the day.

AHHHHH....you are so wise...

 

[Six_O_Turbo]

Provided you use that healthy yeast, and not some outdated pack of yeast that's been kicked around on the floor of the LHBS for the last year.

 

[joety]

Provided you use that healthy yeast, and not some outdated pack of yeast that's been kicked around on the floor of the LHBS for the last year.

You never know. Kicking it around may keep the little buggers active.

 

[Mermaid]

after reading this thread I've decided that I need to buy a 2nd carboy.. because I'm going to want to get another batch started before my first one is ready to be bottled

Thanks, guys. Very helpful thread.

 

[keon]

Awesome thread everyone! You have just saved me a lot of work now that I won't be using a secondary anymore. Guess I will have time to brew more batches of beer.

 

[rustynuts]

Very helpful thread, thanks to the experts that took the time to type out all of this info Now, what to do with all these 5gal carboys. lol

 

[gunner11]

Very helpful thread, thanks to the experts that took the time to type out all of this info Now, what to do with all these 5gal carboys. lol

Use em!!! You can primary in a 5gal. Sure it may not be as useful as a 6.5gal, but with a blow off tube I have used them in primary.

 

[humann_brewing]

I haven't used a secondary in a loooong time and I dry hop 90% of my beers.

 

[Hopheader]

Only use secondary now for additions and dry-hopping, etc. And, since I'm Canadian and all we can really get our hands on (speaking for my region), 5gal glass is the way for me.

Haven't tried the Better Bottles; personally plastic phenol phobic but many use 'em.

p.s. heard another discussion just last night in a BJCP off-flavour tasting evening, re: autolysis.
It basically went something along the lines of big breweries / large-scale operations with large volumes and conical fermentors could be resulting in much more pressure down upon the yeast cake, thereby crushing the yeast cells and that we homebrewers using 5gal at a time don't need to worry so much. I'm no physicist but suppose it kind of makes sense with the 'pressure' discussion.

But isn't it more about the yeast cells basically cannibalizing themselves?

Either way--- I've been a single-stage fermenter for a couple years now basically just to get away from plastic and the extra handling/potential oxidization/potential for infection.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Glad you mentioned this! I'm new, hooked, and impatient I need those buckets back so I can make more!

I heard / read somewhere:
**1 week in primary, 2 weeks in secondary, 3 weeks in the bottle, then into the fridge. If you don't secondary, then 2 weeks in the secondary and 3 weeks in the bottle.

Then I start reading more and it seems people are going 4 weeks in primary on average. So, here's the question: What is the minimum time in the bucket if you don't secondary? I know that the real answer is, "the beer will tell you". But I don't know my beer well enough yet. In general, I bottle when the hydrometer reading is steady for several days. What else do you take into account when you bottle - for example - bottle when the hydrometer reading is steady, the beer is clear, and it is a full moon on Thursday?

Thanks for your thoughts! I'm learning a lot here just lurking around.

Like Revvy says, 4 days is too soon.

Whenever I did a Speed Brew (and racked at 4 days) I always ended up with diacetyl because I didn't give the yeast time to clean up after itself.

Now, I never rack until the FG is attained.

 

[Hopheader]

Hydrometers were created for a reason - to make the brewer wait until the beer is dang'ed good 'n' ready to be consumed.

Diacetyl or Acetaldehyde, take your pick, if you don't let your yeast finish the task.

J

 

[wcarter1227]

Very helpful thread, thanks to the experts that took the time to type out all of this info Now, what to do with all these 5gal carboys. lol

Edwort's Apfelwein is what you do with all those 5 gal carboys!

 

[torque2k]

Edwort's Apfelwein is what you do with all those 5 gal carboys!

Or make Root Beer for the kids!

I've gotta say, since starting up last year and making slight modifications every batch to get better results, treating yeast better rates #1 in most effective changes, with #2 being water composition. Making the leap from dry to liquid yeast, making an adequate starter, slightly raising temps after primary fermentation slows, and leaving it in the bucket have completely changed how my beers come out. Amazing, the difference from the first batches I did. :rockin:

 

[bdleedahl]

I would like to hear revvy comment on long primaries where a non-airtight bucket (with no airlock) is used... does this change anything? they don't sell primaries with airlocks at any of the local home brew stores

 

[user 19629]

It seems the consensus here is that a secondary is not necessary.
But from what I've gathered it also not necessary to leave it in the primary for a month or longer, which seems to be what a lot of people
here advocate. I understand giving the yeast time to "clean up", but if it's done fermenting and you've given it time so you don't taste any off flavors like diacetyl that the yeast will take care of isn't it ready to keg or bottle? Isn't arbitrarily telling a new brewer to let it sit in primary at least x weeks and don't drink any for at least x amount of weeks just as wrong as the rule of 1 week primary, 2 weeks secondary, and 3 weeks in bottle?
I just think because you can leave it the primary for x amount of weeks or months doesn't mean you should.

 

[Hopheader]

bd, don't know what kind of primary you're using up the road there in SK but if it is a typical bucket with a lid, get a bung, place an airlock into it, grab a pen, place bung on top of bucket lid, trace outline, grab drill with a hole-cutter/saw, drill (with lid off/no beer in primary of course, hahaha). Insert airlock.