To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In

[Revvy]

What do you guys use for primary fermentation Carboy or Bucket? Can you use either and leave it in primary and not rack to secondary? I have a 6.5 bucket and a 5g carboy. I was thinking about starting to do some 2.5g batch's and buying two 3g carboys to use for primary.

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I have everything from plastic water jugs, to buckets to 1 glass carboy to several Betterbottles of all sizes, and even my old mr beer keg, and I have month long primaried in all of them. Again it really doesn't matter, there is NO limitations to who can long primary. This doesn't require any thought about doing, there's nothing special you need to do or use.

You all are just over thinking it or discussing it; There's really no questions that need to be asked, or answered, just be like Nike;

Most of us who have been doing it for years just did it by accident. We couldn't get to our beer for whatever reason for a month (I was out of town from the point where I would have normally racked to secondary, for two weeks.) And I just went ahead and bottled when I got back. And the beer turned out better than previous batches. So I started doing it.

And I submitted a bunch of beers in a contest. There were 2 that were secondaried and 2 that were long primaried, and the LP ones got higher scores and better comments about clarity and crispness that the ones I secondaried. So that was enough to realize there was something to this....and I never looked back. And my scores have consistantly been better than any I ever submitted before. All from just leaving my beer in primary for a month.

 

[BillyBroas]

Really glad I posted this as there are some great comments in here. A couple of my favorites:

On Saturday I had 2 Bjcp judges informally tasting my beers during the big brew day (One of them a beautiful woman). She facebooked me the next day and said;

"There's nothing that is such a relief as someone asking you to try their brews and finding that they're clean and free of off aromas or flavors... all of yours were so nice that way!"


All three of them were month long primaries.

FWIW, I got a gold certificate for a brown ale at the 2009 SW NHC - it was primaried for 6 weeks (no secondary)

I scored a 45.0 on a brown ale at the 2010 Great Arizona Homebrew Competition (highest overall score for a beer) and it was primaried for 2 months (no secondary).

We could debate it all we want but the proof is in the pudding. In fact I almost regret posting this since once the word really gets out the competition is going to be stiff

Secondly- when we talk about the "yeast cleaning up after themselves' we're talking about the yeast having plenty of time to go the extra mile and pull a lot more proteins and stuff out of solution which results in overall clarity. Think of it like polishing the beer molecules. The beer as a whole takes on a cleaner, and crisper flavor profile and overall visual clarity, including reducing chill haze proteins.

Just look at what AB does with their use of beechchips. The chips provide more surface area for the yeast to land on which increases the amount of yeast in direct contact with the beer. The yeast then reabsorbs those off-flavors to clean up the beer.

From Mr. Wizard:

"These long, curly chips add a tremendous amount of surface area that yeast settles on during lagering. Diacetyl and acetaldehyde reduction during aging requires yeast and beer to interact, and that is precisely what the beechwood chips do for the brewer...Beechwood chips give yeast a large surface area where they can hang around and interact with the aging beer."

Leave the yeast alone and they'll reward you.

 

[joety]

Anyone who is all worked up about getting a little kicked up yeast or other trub into their keg need only a wait a few days and tap a glass. The tube pulls of the bottom. Whatever it can't pull shouldn't be enough to affect the taste of your beer. If it's something that precipitated out in the ferementer, it's going to settle out just fine in the keg. Using a secondary or bright tank will not in itself create any additonal precipitation; only finings, temperature changes, etc., can do that and it makes no difference if its in glass or stainless.

 

[seabrew8]

.
I have everything from plastic water jugs, to buckets to 1 glass carboy to several Betterbottles of all sizes, and even my old mr beer keg, and I have month long primaried in all of them. Again it really doesn't matter, there is NO limitations to who can long primary. This doesn't require any thought about doing, there's nothing special you need to do or use.

You all are just over thinking it or discussing it; There's really no questions that need to be asked, or answered, just be like Nike;

Most of us who have been doing it for years just did it by accident. We couldn't get to our beer for whatever reason for a month (I was out of town from the point where I would have normally racked to secondary, for two weeks.) And I just went ahead and bottled when I got back. And the beer turned out better than previous batches. So I started doing it.

And I submitted a bunch of beers in a contest. There were 2 that were secondaried and 2 that were long primaried, and the LP ones got higher scores and better comments about clarity and crispness that the ones I secondaried. So that was enough to realize there was something to this....and I never looked back. And my scores have consistantly been better than any I ever submitted before. All from just leaving my beer in primary for a month.

Revvy, i assume you primary using the same temp for the whole mth? Do you think its ok to primary for a mth then keg, chill and put it on 30psi for a few days and then serve?

That would be a simple method. I like to simplify things.

 

[Revvy]

Revvy, i assume you primary using the same temp for the whole mth? Do you think its ok to primary for a mth then keg, chill and put it on 30psi for a few days and then serve?

That would be a simple method. I like to simplify things.

You're pretty much cold crashing then, which will pull anything still up in solution down. That's a good plan.

 

[JBrady]

I never secondary even when dry hopping, I just wait for fermentation to slow down and dry hop. Works fine for me

 

[Revvy]

I never secondary even when dry hopping, I just wait for fermentation to slow down and dry hop. Works fine for me

I started doing that as well...Now I only oak or fruit in secondary, and that usually includes a tertiary as well.

 

[permo]

I pose this question, I am a huge propenent of extended primary fermentations, but what does a guy do for a strong ale, like Imperial Stout or Barley Wine? I like to leave them on Primary for 3-4 weeks and then move them to glass secondary for 3-9 months to age and mellow. Are you guys that don't secondary simply bottling after primary for these types of ales?

 

[Revvy]

I pose this question, I am a huge propenent of extended primary fermentations, but what does a guy do for a strong ale, like Imperial Stout or Barley Wine? I like to leave them on Primary for 3-4 weeks and then move them to glass secondary for 3-9 months to age and mellow. Are you guys that don't secondary simply bottling after primary for these types of ales?

No, I primary for a month, then rack to a secondary (I use betterbottles or whatever I have free) often I will stick some toasted oak in the secondary for a week, then rack to a tertiary for extended aging for 2-6 months before bottling. Then bottle conditioning for as long as that may take.

 

[machinelf]

Do any of you guys who dry hop in primary wash your yeast afterward? We wash our yeast most of the time, and it seems like all those hops would make that a bad idea, but if it's been done successfully...

 

[Yooper]

Do any of you guys who dry hop in primary wash your yeast afterward? We wash our yeast most of the time, and it seems like all those hops would make that a bad idea, but if it's been done successfully...

I've done it, but it's a bit more of a pain. Leaf hops come out ok, but the pellet sludge makes it tougher. If I'm planning on washing yeast, I dryhop in the secondary. If I remember to transfer. Sometimes I forget, because dryhopping in the bucket is so much easier, and then I go "oh, darn!" when I remember I have to wash that yeast!

 

[Revvy]

I think those times when I've harvested dry hopped pellet primary only beers, I've probably just had to do a "rinse cycle" a couple more times than I would if there weren't excess hops in there. But it's never seemed any bigger of a deal to me that washing yeast is period. I use a couple of 1 gallon mason jars when I rinse, I'll dump a gallon of water in to the bucket, then pour that into gallon one, then after that settles pour off the top stuff, add more water and transfer it to gallon two.

 

[ArcaneXor]

I prefer to make my starters a little bigger and harvest my yeast for washing from there. Much less trub, hops and dead yeast to deal with compared to harvesting from the primary.

 

[jpsloan]

Still a good idea to x-fer when you intend to age for 3+ months?

 

[Denny]

I let the beer decide for me. I avoid secondary if I can. If the beer isn't clearing the way I'd like after a month in primary, I xfer to secondary. For whatever reason, it seems to accelerate the clearing process.

 

[ArcaneXor]

Still a good idea to x-fer when you intend to age for 3+ months?

For long-term aging, it's best to transfer to a keg under a CO2 blanket. If a keg is not available, a secondary vessel (carboy, Better Bottle) will do. When leaving the beer on the yeast for an extended period (months), you can start picking up off-flavors from autolysis and such.

 

[ArcaneXor]

I let the beer decide for me.

That's really the best way to go all-around. Listen to what your beer tells you. Once you learn its language, it will tell you exactly what should be done to it and at what time.

 

[Revvy]

I let the beer decide for me. I avoid secondary if I can. If the beer isn't clearing the way I'd like after a month in primary, I xfer to secondary. For whatever reason, it seems to accelerate the clearing process.

But this is Denny we're talking about here, I thought you could just wave your hand and the yeast would fall out for you. That's why we have a yeast named after you, right? 'cause they just follow you everywhere.

 

[Denny]

But this is Denny we're talking about here, I thought you could just wave your hand and the yeast would fall out for you. That's why we have a yeast named after you, right? 'cause they just follow you everywhere.

Man, IF ONLY it worked that way! The reason people _think_ I'm a great brewer is because I never talk about the batches I screw up!

 

[Revvy]

Man, IF ONLY it worked that way! The reason people _think_ I'm a great brewer is because I never talk about the batches I screw up!

Neither do I. SO our secret's out now.

 

[SumnerH]

But this is Denny we're talking about here, I thought you could just wave your hand and the yeast would fall out for you.

No, no, no. He has to play his pipe to get the yeasties to do his bidding.

 

[l3agel]

What would be the problem with adding fruit to the primary? Why is a secondary necessary for that?

 

[Revvy]

What would be the problem with adding fruit to the primary? Why is a secondary necessary for that?

In my experience the combination of fermenting fruit goop, hops scum and trub usually makes for tough racking after. It's easier to eliminate some of it, by removing the trub.

 

[Denny]

No, no, no. He has to play his pipe to get the yeasties to do his bidding.

Sorry, I have other uses for the pipe! I play ukulele for the yeast!

 

[gplutt]

I used to secondary until I heard Jamil's podcast. My beers have definitely improved. I don't even secondary my lagers! I just cold store them in the primary. It sounds wrong, but I recently made a German Pils this way and it attenuated down to 1.007. Cleanest beer I have brewed, no off flavors. All secondaries do is oxidize the beer. The key is yeast health. Long exposure to clean yeast won't introduce undesirable flavors, but it will help clean up the beer.

about two or three weeks fermentation, three days diacetyl rest, and 6 weeks lagering in the same carboy, no transfer.

Edited for spelling.

 

[hal2814]

Do any of you guys who dry hop in primary wash your yeast afterward? We wash our yeast most of the time, and it seems like all those hops would make that a bad idea, but if it's been done successfully...

When I plan on washing a batch, I run my trub through a paint strainer bag after the boil on its way to the fermenter. If I dry hop, I'll do it in a large hop bag. Those steps make my trub noticeably cleaner when I start the wash from the primary.

 

[SkyWalker]

hmmm i am about to do my first brew tomorrow and i have a question...

would there be any reason why i shouldnt use a glass 5 gallon carboy for my primary for a 5 gallon batch of irish stout? my LHBS said that my primary fermenter has to be at least 6.5 gallons for a 5 gallon batch

i bought a plastic 6.5 gallon carboy and glass 5 gallon carboy so i could do a secondary into my glass, but after reading this thread i realized that secondary isnt necessary... if i can use a 5 gallon glass carboy as a primary for a 5 gallon batch, im going to brew another beer next week

 

[BillyBroas]

hmmm i am about to do my first brew tomorrow and i have a question...

would there be any reason why i shouldnt use a glass 5 gallon carboy for my primary for a 5 gallon batch of irish stout? my LHBS said that my primary fermenter has to be at least 6.5 gallons for a 5 gallon batch

i bought a plastic 6.5 gallon carboy and glass 5 gallon carboy so i could do a secondary into my glass, but after reading this thread i realized that secondary isnt necessary... if i can use a 5 gallon glass carboy as a primary for a 5 gallon batch, im going to brew another beer next week

You definitely don't need a 6.5 gallon carboy for a 5 gallon batch, it just makes it easier. Plenty of people on here do 5 gallon batches in 5 gallon carboys, you'll just need a blowoff tube for the krausen (foam) that raises up on your beer. Otherwise it will blow the top off your carboy and make a mess. Do a search and you'll see tons of threads on making them. Here's a good one.

 

[SkyWalker]

You definitely don't need a 6.5 gallon carboy for a 5 gallon batch, it just makes it easier. Plenty of people on here do 5 gallon batches in 5 gallon carboys, you'll just need a blowoff tube for the krausen (foam) that raises up on your beer. Otherwise it will blow the top off your carboy and make a mess. Do a search and you'll see tons of threads on making them. Here's a good one.

awesome thanks for the links! now i can do another batch at the same time with out buying another carboy

 

[Six_O_Turbo]

Like a lot of brewers here on HBT, I've discovered that the transfer to a secondary fermenter really isn't necessary, unless I am doing something like adding fruit or dry hopping. Leave it in the primary 3-4 weeks and I'm good to go.

IIRC, John and Jamil also spoke about leaving in the primary. Stating it was not necessary to leave beer in the primary more than 2 weeks, then bottling (as opposed to 4 weeks which has been a standard line here). May have even been on the same podcast. I believe it was the most recent one on bottling and kegging.