To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In

[Yankeehillbrewer]

Ok so now Oxidation/Staling is the main concern. But how REAL is that concern? I've been using a Secondary for the better part of 2 years now and I can say that I have never had the Wet Cardboard or Sherry off flavors that you should supposedly get from Oxidation. When should these flavors present themselves? right away, or after the beer has aged for X amount of time? I'm just really having a hard time seeing using a Secondary as a problem.

 

[JonK331]

Someone just posted this in another thread, it is really the most clearest answer I have seen. Even better than his hem and haw in the initial post in this thread.

Thanks Revvy, that is an awesome quote.

 

[piteko]

Thanks Revvy, really clear as you said.
I can tell my experimentation:
I was a secondary fermentation brewer and now I opened the first "first fermenter only" beer I made. It was the first IPA I made too (had many other styles, high and low fermentation, but always waited for this one).
The result: I never had a beer so clear and so good with only 3 weeks of conditioning (I was usually going for at least 6 weeks and the beer was on the top of flavour at 8-12 weeks of conditioning).

So, the tripel I was going to secondary will remain in the primary and I will test the "first fermenter only" procedure again.

Thanks again
Piteko

 

[Yooper]

What's his username....or is it one of those closely guarded secrets, like what rdwhahb stands for?

jamilz = jamil z.

 

[mikeysab]

Thanks Yoop, any ide of palmers?

 

[remilard]

Ok so now Oxidation/Staling is the main concern. But how REAL is that concern? I've been using a Secondary for the better part of 2 years now and I can say that I have never had the Wet Cardboard or Sherry off flavors that you should supposedly get from Oxidation. When should these flavors present themselves? right away, or after the beer has aged for X amount of time? I'm just really having a hard time seeing using a Secondary as a problem.

Very real. In my beer judging experience, beers primarily don't win because of either sanitation or oxidation issues.

Trans-2-nonenal is one of many things that will show up in oxidized beer. It happens to have an insidious wet paper aroma (get a vial of it sometime) but at low levels you might perceive it differently.

My advice is to intentionally oxidize some beer and taste it. This is easy to do during bottling. Once you get what oxidation tastes like, you will will start to notice it more. This is a blessing and a curse.

 

[remilard]

Thanks Yoop, any ide of palmers?

rockcandy?

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

Very real. In my beer judging experience, beers primarily don't win because of either sanitation or oxidation issues.

Trans-2-nonenal is one of many things that will show up in oxidized beer. It happens to have an insidious wet paper aroma (get a vial of it sometime) but at low levels you might perceive it differently.

My advice is to intentionally oxidize some beer and taste it. This is easy to do during bottling. Once you get what oxidation tastes like, you will will start to notice it more. This is a blessing and a curse.

I'd like to do this actually. Just shake a bottle up right before capping?

 

[user 19629]

This is what I found interesting
hmmm not 3 to 8 weeks?

"With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl."

 

[Denny]

If you're an AHA member, you can read Palmer's latest take on secondary in the Ask the Experts section of the AHA website. In a nutshell, he says the idea is based on outdated, irrelevant info and he recommends people not do a secondary.

 

[remilard]

If you're an AHA member, you can read Palmer's latest take on secondary in the Ask the Experts section of the AHA website. In a nutshell, he says the idea is based on outdated, irrelevant info and he recommends people not do a secondary.

Well apparently people were nice enough to republish much of it on this website, so there goes the incentive to join the AHA.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Well I've brewed 7 more batches, 5 lagers and 2 ales, since my original posting on this thread and I still haven't had to rack to a secondary, I guess I've been lucky so far.

 

[SwampassJ]

My advice is to intentionally oxidize some beer and taste it. This is easy to do during bottling. Once you get what oxidation tastes like, you will will start to notice it more. This is a blessing and a curse.

Will one of those air stones fit in a bottle? Would be pretty cool to test how much oxidation starts to cause the off flavors and how much before it jumps from carboard to sherry (or other way around).

 

[rico567]

Last winter, I bought more plastic buckets and went to primary-only. The beer is just as good, maybe better (although that is perhaps from better technique on my part, too). Now my carboys sit except for dryhopping, special additiions, or when the recipe for a really big beer calls for it, e.g., my last two beers in the secondary were a MW Bigfoot
Barleywine and there's a Founders Breakfast Stout clone in there now.

This thread on extending the primary does appear to have opened up another familiar issue in the forums, though, which is "Well, the airlock is bubbling....but I have no beer, can I drink it this weekend?" The answer to this is to do a search relevant to establishing a beer pipeline. Once again, "revvy" (and others, too) have chimed in on this subject. It requires the extension of logistical thinking from what's on the shelf / in the keg now, storage, and what's wanted to drink next Spring when the tulips are up, or in the dog days of Summer.

When the homebrewer can achieve a disconnect between what is being brewed today and what is being consumed, then the pipeline problem has been solved and another issue falls away.

Of course, we live in a society where impatience and immediate gratification are taken for granted, as in Homer Simpson's immortal line "Whaddaya mean I have to wait a week to buy a gun, I'm mad now!"

 

[sportscrazed2]

If you are impatient and need beer right away don't homebrew and just go to the store and buy some beer. So if I'm vane and want super clear beer will secondary help at all? if not i would rather just invest in more primaries.

 

[Mermaid]

Last winter, I bought more plastic buckets and went to primary-only. The beer is just as good, maybe better (although that is perhaps from better technique on my part, too). Now my carboys sit except for dryhopping, special additiions, or when the recipe for a really big beer calls for it, e.g., my last two beers in the secondary were a MW Bigfoot
Barleywine and there's a Founders Breakfast Stout clone in there now.

This thread on extending the primary does appear to have opened up another familiar issue in the forums, though, which is "Well, the airlock is bubbling....but I have no beer, can I drink it this weekend?" The answer to this is to do a search relevant to establishing a beer pipeline. Once again, "revvy" (and others, too) have chimed in on this subject. It requires the extension of logistical thinking from what's on the shelf / in the keg now, storage, and what's wanted to drink next Spring when the tulips are up, or in the dog days of Summer.

When the homebrewer can achieve a disconnect between what is being brewed today and what is being consumed, then the pipeline problem has been solved and another issue falls away.

I figured out how to solve the problem of impatience - brew again. Brew more often, smaller batches.

With that said, I am rethinking the secondary thing too. I was rewarded with my patience this evening when I cracked open a 22 oz. bottle of the Dead Guy clone I brewed in September. Bottled in early October, put the 22 oz. in the fridge a week ago, opened it tonight, and GOAL!! It was beautifully carbed and conditioned and perfect to drink. I have been traditionally impatient but really - listening to the wisdom of some of the sage homebrewers here - just wait, then wait a little longer. In the meantime, buy something you like to drink (unless of course, you've got a pipeline).

 

[Johnny7890]

posted in the wrong place (whoops)

 

[BillyBroas]

Someone just posted this in another thread, it is really the most clearest answer I have seen. Even better than his hem and haw in the initial post in this thread.

Revvy, been meaning to say thank you for posting this for a week, so, thank you.

This is indeed clearer than the conversation I posted in the opening post.

 

[BrewBeer4fun]

I wish I would have read this thread a week ago. I just brewed my first batch this past weekend and the day after I ordered another glass carboy as a secondary. I guess I should use it to brew a second batch now instead. Thanks for a good read.

 

[BillyBroas]

I wish I would have read this thread a week ago. I just brewed my first batch this past weekend and the day after I ordered another glass carboy as a secondary. I guess I should use it to brew a second batch now instead. Thanks for a good read.

Oh you would have bought a second one eventually. Nothing wasted at all, so get that second one filled

 

[user 19629]

I agree with the whole pipeline, and don't be impatient point of view to brewing.
That being said, one should take into account that some folks don't have the time, money, space, or equipment to build up a stockpile of beer.

 

[Mermaid]

I agree with the whole pipeline, and don't be impatient point of view to brewing.
That being said, one should take into account that some folks don't have the time, money, space, or equipment to build up a stockpile of beer.

Right

What I was getting at was that I enjoy the act of brewing.
I don't have the space to store 20 cases of beer, and I can't possibly drink it in any reasonble timeframe.

I've started brewing smaller batches so I can brew more often.

I have 2 6-gallon better bottles, 2 5-gal kettles, a tap-a-draft kit, and assorted other bits of equipment. I have used secondaries but have found better success in getting clear beer from using gelatin findings, not anything about the secondary in particular.

I'm doing 3 gallon all-grain batches now (brew-in-a-bag), putting 1.7 ga. into a tap-a-draft and bottling the rest.

Ideally I'll get to the point where I'll have a collection of various styles of homebrew in my "beer closet" so I can choose whatever suits me on any particular day.

 

[nickrjsmith]

Quick addition to this question.

If I just do a primary, do I fit the water bugy thing right off? Or do I leave the hole in the lid for a few days before putting in the water bung?

 

[joety]

Quick addition to this question.

If I just do a primary, do I fit the water bugy thing right off? Or do I leave the hole in the lid for a few days before putting in the water bung?

I would stick a blow off hose through the hole in the lid for several days until the fermentation starts to slow, then airlock (aka water bugy).

 

[Walker]

Walker, I really didn't understand your justification. How does space justify doing a secondary? You could just as easily have three beers in their primary fermentation in that same space. You can also use those carboys for primaries.

Am I confused as to what you were trying to say?

I'm digging way back in this thread, because I just noticed that I was asked a question and never answered it.

I keep my fermenters in a temp controlled fridge. That fridge is big enough to hold three carboys if at least one of them is a 5 gallon carboy. I cannot fit three 6.5 gallon carboys in there at the same time.

 

[JonK331]

I have used secondaries but have found better success in getting clear beer from using gelatin findings, not anything about the secondary in particular.QUOTE]

You can add gelatin right to the primary and it works just as well.

 

[as1084]

Sorry to bump this thread again, but since the whole racking to secondary issue has been resolved, I got another question.

Since Palmer says it is no longer necessary to use a secondary for most beers, is it better to use a bucket or carboy to primary for about a month? I know there are pros and cons to each one, so which do you guys prefer?

Because I just bought a 3rd 5 gallon carboy from my LHBS and going to return it for either a couple more buckets for primary (since I don't need to do a secondary for every beer, like I was doing before) or a 6.5 gallon glass carboy.

 

[rico567]

Might be best to start another thread, since this is a different question. OTOH, the question of plastic v. glass has been done many times. Personally, I do all my primary fermentation (and most of my beers are primary-only) in plastic buckets. I prefer the 7 gal. model from US Plastics, because the extra headspace means I don't have to worry about blowoff tubes & such. I have not read any substantive case that would persuade me that glass is better than plastic.

 

[piteko]

Might be best to start another thread, since this is a different question. OTOH, the question of plastic v. glass has been done many times. Personally, I do all my primary fermentation (and most of my beers are primary-only) in plastic buckets. I prefer the 7 gal. model from US Plastics, because the extra headspace means I don't have to worry about blowoff tubes & such. I have not read any substantive case that would persuade me that glass is better than plastic.

I agree to all of the above. I have one 25L fermenter and one 50L fermenter, both made of plastic. Had once a 25L glass fermenter, then I accidentally broke it and decided not to go back on glass (glass has some pros, but it's too heavy, too difficult to wash and too fragile in my humble opinion).

Cheers
Piteko

 

[JonK331]

Sorry to bump this thread again, but since the whole racking to secondary issue has been resolved, I got another question.

Since Palmer says it is no longer necessary to use a secondary for most beers, is it better to use a bucket or carboy to primary for about a month? I know there are pros and cons to each one, so which do you guys prefer?

Because I just bought a 3rd 5 gallon carboy from my LHBS and going to return it for either a couple more buckets for primary (since I don't need to do a secondary for every beer, like I was doing before) or a 6.5 gallon glass carboy.

I like 6.5 gallon glass carboys. Plenty of head room, easy to PBW clean, infinitely reusable. I like to keep plastic out of the process as much as possible.