To recirculate or not- EBIAB

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bendog15

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Ive read a lot on here about recirculating mash and the general consensus seems to be that recirculating your mash doesn’t always improve efficiency. It’s more related to the crush setting on your mill. I’ve always batch sparged in a 10 gal cooler and never had a problem with efficiency.
In designing my new electric kettle I have to place a false bottom over the heating element to avoid bag scorching. This will leave a good 2 to 3 inches of dead space under the grain bill. (I want to do full volume single vessel biab) So I’m worried that the liquid in the dead space will just lay under the grain bill, not achieving conversion. Therefore, I feel that I need to recirculate with that setup. Thoughts?
 
bendog15 said:
In designing my new electric kettle I have to place a false bottom over the heating element to avoid bag scorching. ?[/QUOTE}

Who says you HAVE to use a FB?
Only if you want to automate and add heat during the mash.

You could certainly omit a FB, heat to strike and mash in, and insulate the kettle. For minor temp adjustments you could power the element on low power and stir constantly to raise mash temp a bit.
If you want auto temp control, a FB and pump is a good way to go about it.

You could start simple basic manual ebiab w basic system and expand as you see fit.

Not sure how well it works, but the new high gravity electric system claims such low watt density that you can fire the element during the mash without a FB and pump....and without scorching.
Click to expand...
 

Wow I was literally just looking at high gravity’s website! Good call. They claim their setup does not burn bags that come into contact with the Blichmann element. Sounds good to me! I wasn’t too crazy about false bottoms, pumps, and recirculating mash. I’m a simple brewer and have made amazing beers with an insulated cooler and keggle for 6 years.
I may just be pulling the trigger on that soon. Can’t wait to be an electric brewer!
 
bendog15 said:
Wow I was literally just looking at high gravity’s website! Good call. They claim their setup does not burn bags that come into contact with the Blichmann element. Sounds good to me! I wasn’t too crazy about false bottoms, pumps, and recirculating mash. I’m a simple brewer and have made amazing beers with an insulated cooler and keggle for 6 years.
I may just be pulling the trigger on that soon. Can’t wait to be an electric brewer!
Click to expand...

If you own the mill for the grain instead of buying already milled you can set the mill much tighter than most. With that finer milling, the starches gelatinize very quickly and conversion follows. It happens so fast that you don't need to worry about heating or even insulating the kettle. Heat the water to strike temp, turn off the heating element, put the bag in and stir in the grains. Cover the kettle and wait 30 minutes (conversion will have happened sooner but it takes time for flavor to be extracted). Pull the bag of grains out and let hang to drip out while you heat the wort to boil.
 
RM-MN said:
If you own the mill for the grain instead of buying already milled you can set the mill much tighter than most. With that finer milling, the starches gelatinize very quickly and conversion follows. It happens so fast that you don't need to worry about heating or even insulating the kettle. Heat the water to strike temp, turn off the heating element, put the bag in and stir in the grains. Cover the kettle and wait 30 minutes (conversion will have happened sooner but it takes time for flavor to be extracted). Pull the bag of grains out and let hang to drip out while you heat the wort to boil.
Click to expand...

Roger that. I do own a grain mill. And i will be crushing much finer!
 
bendog15 said:
... I have to place a false bottom over the heating element to avoid bag scorching...
Click to expand...

That's only if your bag is in the kettle while the element is firing. As RM-MN pointed out, you can brew just fine without that situation ever occurring. You don't have to use a false bottom.

Regarding re-circulation, ask yourself why you would want it. Is it because that's what's included in the "systems" that are for sale, so it must be better? Is it because you think you need it to control temps? Do you think you need it to achieve decent efficiency? Etc.
 
LittleRiver said:
That's only if your bag is in the kettle while the element is firing. As RM-MN pointed out, you can brew just fine without that situation ever occurring. You don't have to use a false bottom.

Regarding re-circulation, ask yourself why you would want it. Is it because that's what's included in the "systems" that are for sale, so it must be better? Is it because you think you need it to control temps? Do you think you need it to achieve decent efficiency? Etc.
Click to expand...

Very good questions. My efficiency has been just fine using standard mash in a cooler with the occasional stir. I doubt recirculating will improve my efficiency all that much. The new system I’m buying does come with an option to recirculate. I’ll probably play with it for a few batches and end up going back to non-recirculated mash.
I’m not one for complicated brew days. It does sound fun to play with pumps, but i doubt I’ll keep doing it on the regular.
 
I have brewed BIAB style with and with out a pump, you will be fine with out one however I would recommend insulating your vessel but then I don't own a mill.

If you want to do a step mash you still can just raise the bag heat the wort put the bag back and stir.


Good Luck. Aamcle
 
I would think you would want to raise the temps up to around 168-170ish at the end of the mash cycle and then pull the bag to let it run out like a traditional mash out/sparge?
 
bendog15 said:
Wow I was literally just looking at high gravity’s website! Good call. They claim their setup does not burn bags that come into contact with the Blichmann element. Sounds good to me! I wasn’t too crazy about false bottoms, pumps, and recirculating mash. I’m a simple brewer and have made amazing beers with an insulated cooler and keggle for 6 years.
I may just be pulling the trigger on that soon. Can’t wait to be an electric brewer!
Click to expand...
I've got a HG system and both Dave and Blichmann suggest not to let the bag touch just in case the element does happen to get high enough to burn it and that's why they have the basket with the kit. However, even at a mashout of 168 or so, you should be fine.
 
Just recently switched to BIAB from a more traditional system. So I have a pump and all that other equipment, but I dont recirc. I had the same thoughts, but after listening to experienced BIAB'ers I opted to keep it as simple as possible. I've averaged 80% mash efficiency, and my brew on Sunday dropped less than 1F over 45min. I only do 30-45 min mashes now too. Wrapped in a sleeping bag with ambient at ~50F.

Why mash out with BIAB when you are heating while draining to get to a boil? You're not lautering for an hour or more so a mashout is unnecessary.
 
odie said:
I would think you would want to raise the temps up to around 168-170ish at the end of the mash cycle and then pull the bag to let it run out like a traditional mash out/sparge?
Click to expand...

There's no need to do a traditional mash out in BIAB. Just raise the bag and fire the heat for the boil. The wort will be passing through mash out temp range in a few minutes.

Mash out temp is not required for an effective rinse of the grain as the bag drains. Low 80's brewhouse efficiency without a mashout and without a separate sparge step speaks for itself.
 
Ok. Stuff I've been reading in my old (pre internet) books seems to indicate that heating the mash allows the wort to flow out better and also helps the flow/rinsing during sparge...even if you are mashing full volume and not gonna sparge, wouldn't raising the mash temps back to strike temps and then pulling the bag improve the drain? Isn't that the idea of raising the temp back up to 168-170ish for the mash out & sparge?

I mean in traditional 3V systems don't you raise the mash temp at the end and then commence recirculation, drain the mash tun, sparge the remnants and all?
 
The traditional reason for a high temp mash-out is because on a pro brewery scale, lautering can take a long time simply due to the volumes involved.

The wort is thus first raised to a temperature that will denature both alpha and beta amylase, in order to halt further conversion. If this wasn't done, the enzymes would continue to work during the long sparge, possibly producing a more fermentable product than the brewer was aiming for.

This is why mash-out often makes sense in a fly sparge homebrewing situation. But in BIAB where you lift the bag, lautering takes a very short time, and as LittleRiver says above, if you start heating to boil right after hanging the bag, you're basically doing the same thing as mash-out, just with the grain removed from the liquid.
 
odie said:
Ok. Stuff I've been reading in my old (pre internet) books seems to indicate that heating the mash allows the wort to flow out better and also helps the flow/rinsing during sparge...even if you are mashing full volume and not gonna sparge, wouldn't raising the mash temps back to strike temps and then pulling the bag improve the drain? Isn't that the idea of raising the temp back up to 168-170ish for the mash out & sparge?

I mean in traditional 3V systems don't you raise the mash temp at the end and then commence recirculation, drain the mash tun, sparge the remnants and all?
Click to expand...

The difference in wort viscosity between cool and at mash out temps is so little as can be disregarded.
 
RM-MN said:
The difference in wort viscosity between cool and at mash out temps is so little as can be disregarded.
Click to expand...

yeah that kinda puts it in perspective...150 ish vs 170? both are pretty warm...it's not like room temp vs 170...
 
I bought the controller and hose/quick disconnects from HG. Blichman 240v boil coil for 15 gallon kettle. It does not burn my bag.I had a pump. So my single vessel BIAB is recirculating. My change was replacing HGs sprayer to a locline. The HG setup oxidizes the wort. https://www.loc-line.com/. I LOVE IT.
 
so your bag sits directly on the heater element while it on and nothing? I look down into my kettle and soon after I flip the switch I see heat waves and bubbles starting to form on the element...I'd be afraid to touch it.

Is this "boil coil" not the same as a water heater element?
 
ale_man said:
I bought the controller and hose/quick disconnects from HG. Blichman 240v boil coil for 15 gallon kettle. It does not burn my bag.I had a pump. So my single vessel BIAB is recirculating. My change was replacing HGs sprayer to a locline. The HG setup oxidizes the wort. https://www.loc-line.com/. I LOVE IT.
Click to expand...
I've read some do the same thing. Might you share some pics so we can enjoy your beer porn?
 
odie said:
...so your bag sits directly on the heater element while it on and nothing? I look down into my kettle and soon after I flip the switch I see heat waves and bubbles starting to form on the element...I'd be afraid to touch it. Is this "boil coil" not the same as a water heater element?
Click to expand...

The difference is the heat density per square inch. Your typical hot water heater element will have a much higher heat density than a ULWD (ultra low watt density) element. I believe the Boil Coil is even below ULWD elements in that regard.

Think about electric blankets. If you were to wrap yourself mummy style in electric blankets you could raise your body temperature high enough to kill you, without burning your skin.
 
odie said:
so your bag sits directly on the heater element while it on and nothing? I look down into my kettle and soon after I flip the switch I see heat waves and bubbles starting to form on the element...I'd be afraid to touch it.

Is this "boil coil" not the same as a water heater element?
Click to expand...
Yes it is hot, i would not touch it. It has never ever burned my bag.
 
I don’t remember what kinda density element I have. I just bought a SS one 120v 1500watts that I found
 
It’s enough wattage to bring to boil. I wanted to be able to plug in anywhere. Thus choice of element. Couldn’t find around 1800 watt unit. The limit of a 15amp circuit
 
Takes almost 3 hours to bring 12 cold gal to boil. But I’m only heating half that amount...and it’s already coming outta the mash tun at 150 followed by sparge at 170...so in reality it’s not a long wait
 
I was just gonna recirc because I want too. I have a pump and a controller that will automate the pumps if I wanna mess with it.

But I also considered trying to figure out a way to use Text to Voice to announce the steps in the program while brewing as they happen. :ban:
 
ale_man said:
I bought the controller and hose/quick disconnects from HG. Blichman 240v boil coil for 15 gallon kettle. It does not burn my bag.I had a pump. So my single vessel BIAB is recirculating. My change was replacing HGs sprayer to a locline. The HG setup oxidizes the wort. https://www.loc-line.com/. I LOVE IT.
Click to expand...

I just switched to that exact setup. My 20 gal ss brewtech kettle from HG has all the hoses, pumps, etc. I was recirculating with the basket inside, lined with the brew bag. The basket kept overflowing, spilling grain into the kettle. Even with the pump on super low. I’m ditching the basket and gonna let the bag rest directly on the coils. I also ditched the spray nozzle and bought the loc line sparge attachment. Brew day on Monday. Can’t wait.
 
bendog15 said:
I just switched to that exact setup. My 20 gal ss brewtech kettle from HG has all the hoses, pumps, etc. I was recirculating with the basket inside, lined with the brew bag. The basket kept overflowing, spilling grain into the kettle. Even with the pump on super low. I’m ditching the basket and gonna let the bag rest directly on the coils. I also ditched the spray nozzle and bought the loc line sparge attachment. Brew day on Monday. Can’t wait.
Click to expand...
Overthinking a simple concept....been there
I started with a bag in the basket. The basket does nothing. Then I tried recirculating that setup and it overflowed due to not enough flow through the bag and basket combo.

I ditched the basket and just use a bag now. No recirculating AND I kill the power on the element for the entire mash. Temps only drop a couple of degrees over an hour and it hasn't made a single bit of difference in the beer.....simple works

All the other stuff is to make the brewer happy but not needed....at all
 
JONNYROTTEN said:
Overthinking a simple concept....been there
I started with a bag in the basket. The basket does nothing. Then I tried recirculating that setup and it overflowed due to not enough flow through the bag and basket combo.

I ditched the basket and just use a bag now. No recirculating AND I kill the power on the element for the entire mash. Temps only drop a couple of degrees over an hour and it hasn't made a single bit of difference in the beer.....simple works

All the other stuff is to make the brewer happy but not needed....at all
Click to expand...

Couldn’t agree more... I feel with 5-10 gal batch sizes, recirculating, pumps and all the bells and whistles aren’t always the answer. I batch sparged in an igloo cooler for 6 years... occasional stir and beer always came out great.

Gonna try the loc line sparge and recirculating pump for a few more brews... but I’m sure eventually I’ll just ditch all that crap and do exactly what you’re doing...
 
JONNYROTTEN said:
Overthinking a simple concept....been there
I started with a bag in the basket. The basket does nothing. Then I tried recirculating that setup and it overflowed due to not enough flow through the bag and basket combo.

I ditched the basket and just use a bag now. No recirculating AND I kill the power on the element for the entire mash. Temps only drop a couple of degrees over an hour and it hasn't made a single bit of difference in the beer.....simple works

All the other stuff is to make the brewer happy but not needed....at all
Click to expand...

@JohnnyRotten what’s your efficiency like with your current method?
 
bendog15 said:
@JohnnyRotten what’s your efficiency like with your current method?
Click to expand...
I hit my numbers exactly usually. Or within a point or 2. I think the numbers are figured at 75% so I guess thats where I'm at
Killing the power works out nice. Never have to worry about overheating and with the power off I can leave the house and run around without worrying about anything. Last brew day I went to the gym and came back and started the boil. Makes for an easy brew day
 
What is wrong with recirculating in an EBIAB set-up? Since replacing the basket with a wire mesh false bottom and added the Loc-Line, recirculating works just fine for me.
 
bendog15 said:
@JohnnyRotten what’s your efficiency like with your current method?
Click to expand...

Funny...you think Johnny knows or cares much about efficiency lol

All Johnny cares is that the beer is good and the abv is close to where it should be....efficiency to Johnny is how quickly and easily he can bang out a tasty brew lol, that’s efficiency in Johnny’s eyes...

Some could learn something here [emoji23] lol JK!
 
whovous said:
What is wrong with recirculating in an EBIAB set-up? Since replacing the basket with a wire mesh false bottom and added the Loc-Line, recirculating works just fine for me.
Click to expand...

There is certainly nothing wrong with recirculating in an EBIAB set up.

Some just feel the added expense and effort aren’t worth it...especially for larger batches where mash temps are more steady.
 
I bailed on recirculating when I designed my system, reccomend you do the same. I never regreted it. Not even for a second. Recirculating as a cooling method makes some sense and I guess could save some effort. It is clear to me that some people don't want to just make beer, they also want to make things that make beer as part of the fun. If you are a gear head and want to design some sort of advanced system and that will bring you joy, go for it. If you just want a simple way to make beer, pass on some of this.
 
My system was already designed when I bought it. I am not trying to convince others to emulate me, I am just asking if there is a good reason to take the pump out of the system.

My system does not always produce great beer, but I attribute that to operator error rather than blaming it all on the Chugger pump.
 

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