Tmavé Pivo - Recommendations?

[cactusgarrett]

And to continue my recent foray into the more obscure/historical brews, I'll be trying my hand at a tmavé pivo. I only found the one thread from a few years ago and a couple articles, but am relying solely on this article, due to Ivan Chramosil's involvement. Does anyone have any recent experience with this style to lend some suggestions/recommendations? From Chramosil, I pieced together this plan:

7.0 gal boil (60min)
5.5 gal into the fermenter
OG: 1.056 (intentionally on the bigger side of the style)
IBU: 35
SRM: 25

50% German Pils
30% Munich (10L)
15% cara-munich II
5% carafa II special

1oz Sterling for 60min (25 IBU)
1oz Saaz for 20min (7 IBU)
1oz Saaz for 5min (3 IBU)

WLP800, ferment at 48°F
Soft water profile
Double decoction to hit 131°F, 144°F, and 156°F
(i know... "modified malt, no protein rest, blah blah blah" but i saw some feedback that said it could help with head retention amongst other things; thought i'd give it a try)

 

[cactusgarrett]

Anyone? Getting WLP800 from Morebeer Wednesday, as my local and online sources don't have it or the Wyeast equivalent. No idea why.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Maybe you would have had more interest with the English style name -- Czech Dark Lager (Tmavé Pivo is literally "dark beer" in Czech).

It's not my style at all, but I see a bunch of articles and recipes when searching for it in English.
https://beerandbrewing.com/make-your-best-czech-dark-lager/
https://vinepair.com/articles/czech-beer-dark-lager/
...

Hope this helps. Sorry if I'm on a totally different page here.
Cheers

 

[Vale71]

Does anyone have any recent experience with this style to lend some suggestions/recommendations?

I recently spent a month in the Czech Republic and my liver is still recovering, does that count?

I'd say you're on the right track but still need a couple of adjustments.
Lose the Pils malt, it has no place in a historically accurate Tmavé. Besides that, you want very low final attenuation and using light malt goes in the opposite direction.
5% Carafa is way too much. The roastiness in Tmavé is very subdued. I wouldn't go higher than 2% for the first attempt. 15% Cara is also too much if paired with decoction.
Kudos on the double decoction but you really need to skip the protein rest. Also do not decoct for less than 60 minutes each time.
If you are building your water avoid any sulfate additions.
I'd also go 100% Saaz but I realize Sterling is probably cheaper in the US as it is locally grown.

 

[ccous]

I recently spent a month in the Czech Republic and my liver is still recovering, does that count?

I'd say you're on the right track but still need a couple of adjustments.
Lose the Pils malt, it has no place in a historically accurate Tmavé. Besides that, you want very low final attenuation and using light malt goes in the opposite direction.
5% Carafa is way too much. The roastiness in Tmavé is very subdued. I wouldn't go higher than 2% for the first attempt. 15% Cara is also too much if paired with decoction.
Kudos on the double decoction but you really need to skip the protein rest. Also do not decoct for less than 60 minutes each time.
If you are building your water avoid any sulfate additions.
I'd also go 100% Saaz but I realize Sterling is probably cheaper in the US as it is locally grown.

Lose the Pils in favor of what? I thought thats the proper base malt for the style. It’s not a Munich dunkel. Agree with the rest.

 

[Vale71]

In favor of Munich. Dark beers were originally brewed not because of a fad but because dark malt was the only base malt available.
Using light malt and then darkening the beer (most often with the help of coloring agents) is a modern variation (or perversion, if you like) which does not give the same result as far as taste and mouthfeel go.
Having tasted repeatedly today's most succesful (and historically accurate) example of the style (U Fleků in Prague) I'm willing to bet my whole brewing gear that the one malt that they definitely don't use is Pilsner malt.

 

[Paulaner]

I've brewed these beers too many times to count and I've visited the Czech Republic just for beer every year for as long as I can remember and would agree and disagree with previous posts. Keep the Pils malt, but definitely cut down on the Caramunich and the Carafa. Also, I wouldn't go past a 30 min hop addition and attenuation on these beers should be higher, I routinely halt fermentation to around 1.012 or so. I'm not gonna start an argument about this, but as you taste different Czech dark beers they're all similar, but quite different so keep experimenting till you find what you like. The whole decoct don't decoct is like beating a dead horse, one thing I've noted is decocting on the home brew scale introduces too much o2 and stress to your wort so you'll never be able to duplicate what is done on the commercial scale, if possible just perform a step mash and limit o2.

 

[SanPancho]

Id simply add that the old czech guy i knew would use vienna or light munich as base. Which would mean you could lower the specialty malts but still have rich flavor.

As to mashing, personally id just do a normal rest and a mashout near 170.

I still have some CL680 if anyone interested. FYI.

 

[mashpaddled]

This style is discussed, along with recipes, in For The Love of Hops

 

[cactusgarrett]

I recently spent a month in the Czech Republic and my liver is still recovering, does that count?

I'd say you're on the right track but still need a couple of adjustments.
Lose the Pils malt, it has no place in a historically accurate Tmavé. Besides that, you want very low final attenuation and using light malt goes in the opposite direction.
5% Carafa is way too much. The roastiness in Tmavé is very subdued. I wouldn't go higher than 2% for the first attempt. 15% Cara is also too much if paired with decoction.
Kudos on the double decoction but you really need to skip the protein rest. Also do not decoct for less than 60 minutes each time.
If you are building your water avoid any sulfate additions.
I'd also go 100% Saaz but I realize Sterling is probably cheaper in the US as it is locally grown.

Thanks for the recommendation, and i appreciate the time to respond. I gleaned that entire recipe from that Vinepair article where they interviewed Chramosil, who seems to have the style down: "Ivan Chramosil probably knows more about tmavé pivo than anyone on this planet, having served as the brewmaster at U Fleků for over 44 years before finally “retiring” in early 2016. He now consults at different breweries, including U Supa, in Prague’s historic Old Town."

Most of the things you mentioned: no pilsner, cara-munich and carafa amounts, decoction, etc. directly contradict his recommendation, though, so I don't know what to do with THAT....

 

[cactusgarrett]

I'm not gonna start an argument about this, but as you taste different Czech dark beers they're all similar, but quite different so keep experimenting till you find what you like.

Thanks. Since i have NO experience with the style, just leaning on those who do. So, i'm not too worried about trying to mimic what was done 200 years ago versus what is currently served in Prague - just want a good beer of a different style.

 

[cactusgarrett]

This style is discussed, along with recipes, in For The Love of Hops

And to throw another take on this, from that book:

 

[Paulaner]

Thanks. Since i have NO experience with the style, just leaning on those who do. So, i'm not too worried about trying to mimic what was done 200 years ago versus what is currently served in Prague - just want a good beer of a different style.

Carafa 2 will get you closer to UFleku while Carafa 3 will get you closer to Kout, since you say you've had neither 2 is less roastiness while 3 will bring the roast profile forward. I find the Carafa 3 to bring too much roast flavor so I've started using Carafa 2 with a single hop addition at 50 min, because I was getting the fresh Saaz flavors which I think are out of place in this beer.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Yup - i dig less roast vs more for most styles, so i planned on II.

 

[Velnerj]

Well here's my 2 Kč worth. Most breweries here in the Czech Republic do both light and dark lagers. I'm willing to bet the recipes are really similar for simplicity and cost reasons. In my experiences some of the tmavé pivo I've had tastes like a black version of the light lager.

Roastiness and caramel flavors are subdued at best and it seems like sometimes it's just your eyes playing tricks on you.

I'm willing to bet that pilsner malt is the base malt and, like the recipe that was just recently posted a Weyermann product. As I know a popular malt house near where I live (and other malt houses too) use Weyermann grains.

Aim for a dry finish, soft water profile and something close to the recipe posted above and you'll be OK.

One last note Czech tmavé pivo usually is in the 10-12°P range.

Good luck and have fun.

 

[Vale71]

Well here's my 2 Kč worth. Most breweries here in the Czech Republic do both light and dark lagers. I'm willing to bet the recipes are really similar for simplicity and cost reasons. In my experiences some of the tmavé pivo I've had tastes like a black version of the light lager.

That's probably because they are, with just coloring added. Very much like IKEA dark beer. Personally I like to aim a bit higher than that.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Okay - i'm taking a hybrid recipe approach and mixing a bit of Chramosil's suggestions and a bit of the recipe from "For the Love of Hops." Here's what i've got.

55% German Pils
32% Munich (10L)
10% cara-munich II
3% carafa II special
Hochkurz mash schedule (45min rests) with decoction to hit the beta

90min boil:
90min - 11g (0.4oz) Sterling (13 IBU)
60min - 28.3g (1oz) Saaz (12 IBU)
30min - 28.3g (1oz) Saaz (10 IBU)

The color is coming in a little light, but I'm sure the 90min boil and the decoction will help with that. Now, hopefully my Budvar yeast shipping from MoreBeer doesn't freeze solid while the mail isn't being delivered to me today. It's currently -27°F.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Regarding water, aside from "as soft as hell" (which i plan on doing), could someone suggest a Cl:SO4 ratio? Or does it not matter when they're both so low? Here's my current plan:

 

[ccous]

They are so low it doesn’t matter. Get a little sodium in there to enhance maltiness

 

[Paulaner]

Pretty much every lager I brew gets the same additions which end up being: Ca 23.6, Na 7.9, So4 23.9, Cl 53.9, K 9.7. The So4 and K are not added individually, but are from treating my water with SBT.