Thoughts on tannins and astringency

[hlmbrwng]

I brewed my first all-grain batch yesterday, after about 5 months of planning and researching.. Well, it was ideally all-grain, but the efficiency was pretty damn low (couldn't calculate it exactly) and so had to add some light dried extract at the end of boil to reclaim some gravity.

I believe that the mash pH my have been too high. Possibly up to 6.1, but issue was that my pH meter, which I though was calibrated, was not. So this is guess. After all the research I did, I slacked on the pH. I figured with all the dark specialty grains in the grain bill that it would have taken care of itself. I tasted after each running, pre-boil, and post-boil. I found there to be the over-steeped black tea taste. Although my girlfriend thought I was being crazy, it was very obvious to me.

This morning (about 14 hours after and before there was an obvious fermentation), there was a lot of trub already at the bottom. About 3/4 gallon. Is it possible that a lot of the astringent flavors were coming from the material (protein and what not) that is now laying at the bottom of the carboy? This is going to sit in the primary for 3 weeks, and so I probably won't taste until closer to that time. But my fear is that our beer is going to have this flavor. I have read that gelatin can help pulled out some of the tannins and might do that if the flavor is still there.

 

[hlmbrwng]

I also want to add that the recipe that I based mine off of used 10 lbs of munich liquid malt extract. I did not realize it, since I thought it was an all-grain recipe, that it called for liquid extract. I instead used 10 lbs of munich malt in the mash, and then of course had to make up for the lower ppg of the grain compared to the liquid extract by adding dried extract at the end of boil. I guess I would have avoided a lot of the tannins if I used liquid extract, but also if I mashed properly it shouldn't have been a problem either. I guess with 21 lbs of grain, there is a lot of potential for tannin extraction.

 

[RM-MN]

I brewed my first all-grain batch yesterday, after about 5 months of planning and researching.. Well, it was ideally all-grain, but the efficiency was pretty damn low (couldn't calculate it exactly) and so had to add some light dried extract at the end of boil to reclaim some gravity.

I believe that the mash pH my have been too high. Possibly up to 6.1, but issue was that my pH meter, which I though was calibrated, was not. So this is guess. After all the research I did, I slacked on the pH. I figured with all the dark specialty grains in the grain bill that it would have taken care of itself. I tasted after each running, pre-boil, and post-boil. I found there to be the over-steeped black tea taste. Although my girlfriend thought I was being crazy, it was very obvious to me.

This morning (about 14 hours after and before there was an obvious fermentation), there was a lot of trub already at the bottom. About 3/4 gallon. Is it possible that a lot of the astringent flavors were coming from the material (protein and what not) that is now laying at the bottom of the carboy? This is going to sit in the primary for 3 weeks, and so I probably won't taste until closer to that time. But my fear is that our beer is going to have this flavor. I have read that gelatin can help pulled out some of the tannins and might do that if the flavor is still there.

I think your girlfriend might be right. Unless you raised the temperature of the mash to over 170 you didn't extract much tannins. Going by the reading of an uncalibrated pH meter isn't a good idea and even one that is calibrated may not help much as they can be inaccurate too. RDWHAHB

 

[perle]

See how the beer comes out before getting too excited about it. It's hard to know exactly what will happen, just from tasting the wort. I've had some porters come out astringent to my liking, but mellow completely into a delicious beer after 6 weeks or so in the bottle.

 

[hlmbrwng]

Thank you for the input. This brew has been a learning experience for sure. Typically I like to jump into things quickly in over-excitement. But we really took time in learning about different factors that could effect the flavor. And we took the time to learn about all the new equipment we are using. I realize now that even after all the studying, I can't judge how well things will turn out until we actually employ the methods.

A big frustration is that after finding a nice used wine fridge and converting it to a fermentation chamber with dual-stage thermostat, I think I broke the fridge while trying to give it a thorough cleaning. Seems like anything that can go wrong, sometimes just goes wrong. It's working well enough at the moment, but I get the feeling there is a slow leak someone. I hope it holds out at least for the first few days of fermentation.

 

[kh54s10]

I have been brewing all grain for over 4 years and have yet to measure pH. I have read of tannin extraction and it seems that it is becoming an outdated idea in how it is encountered. Current idea is that it takes a combination of high temperatures AND pH levels that you are unlikely to encounter while homebrewing.

Any time I taste my homebrew, I take that with a grain of salt. I find that the taste quite often is VERY different between wort to beer and again uncarbonated to carbonated.

Let this one finish before making any conclusions. If it then has astringency or tannin flavors, look over your processes to try to determine any mistakes or improvements that can be made.

My guess is that the beer will be good - without any great off flavors.

 

[pepindavid]

For what it's worth (I'm quite a rookie, having brewed a grand total of three batches so far), I had the exact same ideas after tasting the unfermented wort (and even the uncarbonated beer): it felt that it was overly harsh, almost astringent. Same thing a week or so after bottling. Give it an additional two weeks it really changes character, mellowing out a lot, flavors blending, etc. My second batch (now three weeks in the bottle) is pretty good, though with a bit of harsh bitterness. I may have been overshooting my IBUs (full volume boil and slow cooling process).

As they say, RDWHAHB.

One thing I noticed is that it seemed harsher if it stayed in fridge only a few hours before opening (versus a 24-hour stay in the fridge). Maybe the yeast in suspension has something to do with it?

 

[hlmbrwng]

One thing I noticed is that it seemed harsher if it stayed in fridge only a few hours before opening (versus a 24-hour stay in the fridge). Maybe the yeast in suspension has something to do with it?

Perhaps its because the tannins can bind to proteins, which can drop out of the beer?


I didn't get a good hot-break either, since I have a 16 gallon kettle on a kitchen stove. The boil was not violent. I know that hot-break doesn't always happen, but this could be a potential problem in future batches. Also, I forgot to use my irish moss.

Not sure about the cold-break, but the temp dropped fast.