This is going to be another expensive hobby

[Soulshine2]

I stopped by the LBHS after dropping the infused cigars off at the distillery a few doors down. I talked again to the young man who helped me find the yeast. I expanded on what I want to brew, what I plan on doing and after reading How to Brew last couple days ,which he said was great that I had read it, I am getting a better idea what needs to be done and I think I may go the BIAB method for a more economic and simpler start and I can get a better idea from the start on AG batches instead of training myself for an extract batch only having to re-learn how to AG . AG doesn't seem difficult at all , just a few more steps . Like I analogized - its like saying I took a can of Campbells condensed soup (LME) and I made soup(beer)...No I didn't, I opened a can and added water and heated it up and ate it.
When I want to make SOUP ,I get a big pot(mash tun), and a stick of butter and clarify the onions beforehand(malt and roast the barley)broth or stock (water)and organic vegetable and meat (add the previously malted /roasted barley )add some heat (mash)and spices(yeast) and wait for it to simmer(ferment)then add the garnish and fresh ground pepper(hops)before serving(bottling). NOW I have what I want and I actually made it myself .
The young fella "Jake"said that AG is about half the ingredient price as LME and I'll be able to tweak recipes.
Need to get my house in order first but I think I can do this. I apologize if I came off as unappreciative ,there were a lot of advice given and much of it was on a lot of overpriced electronic engineering equipment I don't have money nor space for ...yet. Maybe in a few years when I'm able to retire I will consider stepping up a notch or two on the high tech . For now I just want to make beer and see how it turns out. I thank all of you for the advice so far.
BTW- I have a batch of (Actually Bob's Red Mill) barley I am malting since Tuesday, its chitting nicely and as of 5 minutes before I started this post the rootlets are 1/8" . I had done a small batch previously for "another project" which I refer to as "corn chowder" and it turned out great , roasted it to a light tan and soon added to a mash. The results came away with a light sweet caramel flavor as was intended. IMO I have a 12 yr old Glenfiddich tasting product. SO, thats at least one process I already kinda know how to do .

 

[mongoose33]

IMO I would start with an extract brew. That was one nice thing about the MoreBeer kit, it included one.

Brewing isn't rocket science but neither is it so simplistic we can just assume that the entire process from beginning to end will be completed flawlessly. The brew day can be split into two segments: pre-boil (where we don't care as much about sanitation because the result will be boiled, sanitizing it), and post-boil (where after boiling great care should be exercised to keep things sanitized).

The more steps you take upon yourself at the outset, the greater the chances you'll make a mistake--and to what, then, will you attribute a bad tasting beer? Bad water? Bad PH? Incorrect crush? Bad mix of ingredients? Poor mash temperature? There are many things to get right on the cold side.

I'm a scientist, and one of the things we do is try to eliminate alternative explanations--and in brewing, there's a lot of them.

It's interesting that you're malting, but almost nobody malts their own grain. That might be someplace you get later, but for now, simpler is better.

And FWIW, you'll find the advice above in books, not just from cantankerous old internet denizens.

 

[Soulshine2]

well see thats me, I'm the "almost nobody" that does things. I grow tobacco . I did brain tan leather. I used to do taxidermy. I built a functioning wood chipper from a cut away picture once. I built a cedar strip canoe that I still have...its just my way . I have this thing inside me that drives me to do weird, maybe unorthodox things.
I have a horticulture degree so the whole barley malting process is just another hort project crossover(like tobacco) .
But I get what youre saying. Thanks

 

[DrunkenCanuck]

As someone with GAS, being a guitar player is a more expensive hobby than brewing beer.

 

[z-bob]

well see thats me, I'm the "almost nobody" that does things. I grow tobacco . I did brain tan leather. I used to do taxidermy. I built a functioning wood chipper from a cut away picture once. I built a cedar strip canoe that I still have...its just my way . I have this thing inside me that drives me to do weird, maybe unorthodox things.
I have a horticulture degree so the whole barley malting process is just another hort project crossover(like tobacco) .
But I get what youre saying. Thanks

I totally understand where you're coming from. But leave the malting and the hop-growing to the experts at first, until you get gain a little bit of competence in the brewing part. Making your own malt can be the next step. When things go wrong (and they will) you need to be able to guess intelligently what went wrong so you can make changes to try to correct it. If you don't have *any* ingredients or processes that you can trust, you have no base for troubleshooting. It will get frustrating very quickly.

I bought a couple of pounds of tobacco leaves from an Amish farmer a few years ago when it was still legal to do so. I intended to make my own cigars; I don't smoke, I'm just a sucker for that sort of thing (saw Jimmy Stewart rolling a cigar in Shenandoah) and know its a dying artform. I still have most of it around here somewhere; I assume it's still good if the moths haven't gotten to it, just dried out.

 

[mongoose33]

I totally understand where you're coming from. But leave the malting and the hop-growing to the experts at first, until you get gain a little bit of competence in the brewing part. Making your own malt can be the next step. When things go wrong (and they will) you need to be able to guess intelligently what went wrong so you can make changes to try to correct it. If you don't have *any* ingredients or processes that you can trust, you have no base for troubleshooting. It will get frustrating very quickly.

I looked back through one of my books, "Homebrew All-Stars" by Drew Beechum and Denny Conn. Very good book, IMO.

Each "All-Star" has their own section detailing what they like, don't like, various ingredient and process information, and in many cases, advice for new brewers.

In Gary Glass' section he offers this "Parting Advice":

NEW BREWER: Sanitize everything, and I do mean everything, that touches your wort/beer post boil. But that's the obvious advice that every new brewer gets, and so here's something more unique: despite what many will tell you, don't start homebrewing by brewing all-grain. Take it easy, eliminate as many variables as possible your first time by brewing a simple extract kit. From there you can build your experience and knowledge to confidently try more complex brewing techniques.

Like OP, I've done a lot of...weird?...hobbies in my life, from developing and publishing game theory for fantasy baseball to making custom golf clubs to learning how to reload ammunition to....a lot of things. Now homebrewing. Much of that was hugely accelerated by the internet, forums and youtube and dedicated sites.

What I've learned over the years is that I will greatly shorten the learning curve if I seek out and listen to older and wiser hands. Their accumulated wisdom is something that should be heeded unless one wants to spend a lot of time banging one's head against the wall of a barely-moving learning curve.

I don't write this to convince OP; he's clearly decided how he's going to do this, and more power to him. I write this for others who might be reading this thread and wondering how to proceed.

 

[Tommydee]

While I agree with the advice to start extract, I expect the OP will want to move to AG immediately after first successful extract, which will probably be batch 2 or 3. This is what many are doing, as good BIAB is a temp probe, bag, pH meter, and chiller away...and to make extract clearer, chances are you have a chiller already. So, it is good to buy kettle with this in mind.

 

[mongoose33]

While I agree with the advice to start extract, I expect the OP will want to move to AG immediately after first successful extract, which will probably be batch 2 or 3. This is what many are doing, as good BIAB is a temp probe, bag, pH meter, and chiller away...and to make extract clearer, chances are you have a chiller already. So, it is good to buy kettle with this in mind.

I've done 28 batches; my first 3 were extract, and that was about right. Since then, all-grain.

 

[FranklinNewhart]

Just a note to folks just starting out. I am going way back to the 1960's. First I was an underage teenager that wanted beer but couldn't buy it. Had to actually go to a library in a bigger town than I lived in to find out about making Beer. That done I had to find the ingredients at a time when hardly anybody made beer for themselves and I had to get something for equipment. Went to the feed store to buy Malt and they didn't stoke it but they could get it. There was a choice of one malt in those days that you could buy on special order from the feed store. As for the Hops, I found some growing wild along the rail road track in a Pin Cherry tree. Now for the equipment. All I had available for a brew pot was Mom's Blue Enamel Canning Pot. And for a fermenter I had a real gem. A Medelta Pottery Ceramic Crock. It took two boils in that pot to fill the crock. Put a wooden lid on it and that was it. I used Flieshmans Yeast because that is what was available. I managed to brew a beer that was pretty good from a teenagers point of view. It was probably crap but it got me and my friends drunk so who cared. Now for bottling, I had no capper but you could find lots of bottles with screw caps in those days so I managed there. Total cost in 1960's dollars, Well about 5 bucks for the bag of Malt. The Yeast was in the cupboard and Mom didn't miss any if you took some.

 

[FranklinNewhart]

When I was 15 in like 1965 I used a Blue Enamel Canning Pot and a Medelta Pottery Ceramic Crock for the fermenter with a wooden lid. I picked my own wild Hops or else used Spruce cones. I managed to buy Malt from the feed store on special order for 5 bucks for a fifty pound bag. The yeast was Flieshmans bread yeast snagged from Mom's cupboard. That figures out to $5.00 bucks for 25 Imperial gallons of beer. that got drank by an underage teen and friends who where also underage. That was one and a half cents a bottle. If you are willing to scrounge and compromise then it can be one of the cheapest hobbies going. On the other hand I will just bet that after you have been brewing for awhile you will want and get all the nice Go-Ga's

 

[Soulshine2]

I totally understand where you're coming from. But leave the malting and the hop-growing to the experts at first, until you get gain a little bit of competence in the brewing part. Making your own malt can be the next step. When things go wrong (and they will) you need to be able to guess intelligently what went wrong so you can make changes to try to correct it. If you don't have *any* ingredients or processes that you can trust, you have no base for troubleshooting. It will get frustrating very quickly.

I bought a couple of pounds of tobacco leaves from an Amish farmer a few years ago when it was still legal to do so. I intended to make my own cigars; I don't smoke, I'm just a sucker for that sort of thing (saw Jimmy Stewart rolling a cigar in Shenandoah) and know its a dying artform. I still have most of it around here somewhere; I assume it's still good if the moths haven't gotten to it, just dried out.

what do you mean when it was still legal. Tobacco leaf can be bought. It has to have the main rib left in the leaf or else it becomes "processed" and the feds want a cut . Whole Leaf Tobacco sells it every day. I still buy some from them.
Moths don't eat tobacco, tobacco beetles do . If you still have that leaf it is probably just a little dried out but can be reydrated . Tobacco stores best below 12% moisture . Spray with distilled water and put it in a garbage bag to rehydrate overnight. Tobacco blending for cigars is probably a lot like you guys' beer recipes. If you do it right ,you'll know right away,because it works.
Guys, please don't take my want to do it my way to heart. I'm reading . I'm talking to the guy who runs the LHBS . He understands my situation with space and investment level. I understand the process. Just because I am not doing it how you do it doesn't mean I won't get to the something I'm after...a co-worker used to use this analogy all the time... Theres more than one way to cook a steak.
Theres self taught musicians that can't read music but they make awesome songs.
I'm not a trained sous chef either but know what goes together and I experiment from time to time. I can cook some kick ass food....which as I explained to my wife, this is basically cooking.

 

[z-bob]

I thought cured whole-leaf tobacco was taxed now, like pipe tobacco. But that wasn't the point. If you're going to and jump directly into the deep end of the pool (malting his own barley, for anyone just joining this thread), which I think is a bad idea but I wish you well, doing Mr Beer sized batches makes a lot of sense. You have the fermenters already, and you might already have a kettle. Good luck.

 

[z-bob]

I just thought of something. Maybe my tobacco analogy was a good one. I did roll and smoke a couple of little cigars, and proved that I could do it. They weren't very good, but since I don't smoke anyway that didn't matter. If I had to (zombie apocalypse, etc) I could roll cigars, and they were get better with practice; no need to practice now. And the next step would be to grow and cure my own tobacco (I have tobacco seeds)

So if making your own malt is the point, and brewing beer with it is just to test the malt to see how you did, carry on. But you don't need 5 or 10 gallons to do that, 2 gallons will do just fine.

 

[Stillraining]

well see thats me, I'm the "almost nobody" that does things. I grow tobacco . I did brain tan leather. I used to do taxidermy. I built a functioning wood chipper from a cut away picture once. I built a cedar strip canoe that I still have...its just my way . I have this thing inside me that drives me to do weird, maybe unorthodox things.
I have a horticulture degree so the whole barley malting process is just another hort project crossover(like tobacco) .
But I get what youre saying. Thanks

All good reasons not to mess with extract and go straight all gran from the get go. It adds 1.25 hours to your brew day and is dirt and I mean DIRT simple.

1) heat water to strike temp
2) Immerse grains in it and give a good stir.
3) Go make love to your lady for 30 min. ( assuming your using a cooler MT to lock in heat and dont have to monitor anything ) and that's why I recommend it to you...KISS
4) Get dressed...Start heating your sparge water
5) At 60 min in...Drain first running from MT. Start heating collected wort and Sparge remainder of volume needed with your now up to temp sparge water all at the same time.

Guess what?............ your an all grain brewer.

Never done it but I bet rolling a cigar is way more difficult.

Carry on.

 

[IdiotBrewing]

Never understood why people buy starter kits. Buy the shiny stuff on day one. Buy it all in one hit. Take the pain and then move on!

You have one pang of guilt as your family looks on disapprovingly, but you're all set to brew. Also, the kit starts paying you back from the very start.

 

[PADave]

Never understood why people buy starter kits. Buy the shiny stuff on day one. Buy it all in one hit. Take the pain and then move on!

You have one pang of guilt as your family looks on disapprovingly, but you're all set to brew. Also, the kit starts paying you back from the very start.

Because most people don't know enough about brewing, or if they will continue with it, to buy the shiny stuff on day one. I'm in the camp of get the bare minimum to brew, do a few batches, figure out what you need/want and go from there. I have a whole bin of equipment that now sits unused, that I "had" to have when I started brewing.

 

[Soulshine2]

now I think some of you guys are understanding my point of view on starting. low initial cost vs "cheap" starter kit...theres a definite difference.
PADave- I try to buy middle of the road instead of cheap or high end whether it be tools ,vehicles or coffee(or cigars) . Something that works , maybe its not the best in bells and whistles but it works for my needs.
StillRaining,z-bob- rolling cigars is a traditional or "Cuban" technique. Theres a few ways to do it but to do it right. If you want to look it up , I roll "entubado" . Yes it takes some skill. I doubt many people could roll a perfect one right off the bat. Probably like brewing beer. I'm willing to make a few mistakes and brew some crap before I get to the Mmmm batch. BTW- z-bob, I just pulled a batch of my own homegrown Perique(fermented condiment pipe tobacco method originating in St James Parrish ,Louisiana)
Thanks Guys...maybe some of you guys need a couple of my cigars to enjoy with your home brews for your help and advice.

 

[Soulshine2]

This just happened...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7903986&postcount=6560

 

[oylerck]

Amen on starting bare minimum. Plastic fermenter/bottling bucket, cheap mash tun cooler (get one with a spigot hole, do not try to drill one it's a pita) with homebuilt ball valve and screen from inside dishwasher hose, siphon tube size of spigot on bottling bucket, cheap stock pot 12-20 qt ( bigger starts to add dollars) sanitizer/cleaner(I used one step by itself for many batches) bottle capper and bottle filler. Packets of unflavored Knox gelatin added cold 24 hours before you transfer to bottling bucket if you want clear beer work wonders too.

Save beer bottles and wash them out immediately. Take off labels and sanitize in oven at 180F for 20 minutes. You will have to buy caps however.

Your first couple batches you do not need a full boil, add water afterwards... if you like the hobby a full boil is supposed to be a better beer but honestly if you end up not liking the hobby you waste money on the pot.

This is assuming you already have a wooden/plastic stirring spoon and a strainer and stove and thermometer in your house. Gas is best but electric will work and will take forever. If you have a turkey fryer even better because your house will not get hot and it will be much quicker.

Deals happen. I found a 10 gallon pot I purchased for $10 at work because no one was using it. Helps that I work in food industry... also found 9-gallon cooler for $2. Father in law gave me a turkey fryer that he wasn't using. Now have a homemade BrewEasy for less than $100, the pump was $60 (williamsbrewing.com)

Sorry a bit fragmented...

 

[skraeling]

Take off labels and sanitize in oven at 180F for 20 minutes.

or just starsan and not have to deal with lots of hot glass...

 

[oylerck]

or just starsan and not have to deal with lots of hot glass...

Just let them sit for 5-10 minutes and it's fine. I've done both and it's easier in the oven plus cheaper. Besides, you're not going to be in the oven with the bottles. Each their own.

 

[z-bob]

To remove labels from bottles, dissolve a handful of washing soda (maybe 1/4 to 1/3 cup) in a quart of hot water. Stir, stir, stir, until it dissolves. Pour that in a plastic bucket with about 3 or 4 gallons of cold water. Now just add beer bottles and wine bottles a few at a time as they'll fit or as you accumulate them. After soaking a few hours, typically overnight, most of the labels will just fall off. Even foil labels will scrape off easily. It also loosens any mold and crap dried in the bottoms of the bottles. Give them a quick scrub and a rinse and put them in whatever you're using for storage.

 

[Soulshine2]

The next step up in my opinion, is making 2 gallon batches of all-grain beer in the Mr Beer fermenter, or in a bucket and use the Mr Beer thing as a secondary (so you don't need to leave headspace). You probably have most of the equipment already.

Edit: for a typical 2 gallons batch beer, you might use 60 ounces of 2 row, 3 ounces of some kind of crystal malt, and a half ounce of hops. Less than $10. Wait, I forgot the yeast. Add another $2 for a half a packet of yeast.

re-reading the post...I actually like this idea. Keeps me at a highly affordable level and try the AG .
Thanks

 

[oylerck]

re-reading the post...I actually like this idea. Keeps me at a highly affordable level and try the AG .

Thanks

I've done it. Never had the kits, just the fermenter. My first batch was quite good actually.

 

[Soulshine2]

care to share what you did recipe-wise and what kind of beer you did. I see the Mr Beer kits and fermenters all the time on the cheap. Today saw 2 that were fermenters only for $8 at one thrift store .Most times I can find a full kit(but its at least 3 yrs old)at Goodwill for $5 and all I need is a packet of fresh yeast, Mr Beer wants $15 just for the fermenter.
I'm glad you posted up . Nice to see someone kind of in my same position and gotten more out of it than "clean, empty a can ,heat ,pitch yeast and wait" . I'd like to try the small scale AG and actually create something. While at the thrift store I saw an Igloo 5 gallon water cooler for $12 . I let it go but then had the idea... While most of these kits are for 2 gallon batches. Most "small scale " home brewing recipes are for either 5 gallons or 10 gallons. Why couldn't I take either one of those and split a 5 gallon in half or a 10 gallon into 1/3s and use the 5 gallon cooler for a mash tun? 5 gallon coolers are found pretty readily and cheap, as are food grade 5 gallon buckets. 2 gallons is a taste /12 pack, 3 1/3 gallons is a bit more but not overwhelming if it turns out I don't like what I made. See where I'm going with this? Simple proportions .

 

[z-bob]

Recipes scale linearly, for the most part. Take a 5 or 5.5 gallon recipe and multiply everything times 0.35 -- might want to convert to grams first -- and you'll be just under 2 gallons. The boil-off rate does not scale; you might have to add more water so you don't undershoot the volume, but you can add that later.

If you go too small you have to be creative to maintain steady mash temperatures, but there are people here who do 1 gallon all-grain brewing.

 

[FranklinNewhart]

I use unscented Lysol as a sanitizer. Buck a bottle at the Dollar store. Don't take much and three cold water rinses afterwards and it all good. Still use starsan in the bottle tree for the bottles though. The Lysol is just for the cookers and the fermenters.

 

[Soulshine2]

Recipes scale linearly, for the most part. Take a 5 or 5.5 gallon recipe and multiply everything times 0.35 -- might want to convert to grams first -- and you'll be just under 2 gallons. The boil-off rate does not scale; you might have to add more water so you don't undershoot the volume, but you can add that later.

If you go too small you have to be creative to maintain steady mash temperatures, but there are people here who do 1 gallon all-grain brewing.

right , thats about what I thought as well. 1(seems way too small to bother) ,2,5 and 10 gallons seem like normal recipe sizes ,but easy enough to double/triple,leave as is ,cut in half or 1/3's respectively to make a cheap 5 gallon cooler MT work and stay within a limited budget. Understand the water boil off /add rate. Much appreciated.

 

[oylerck]

right , thats about what I thought as well. 1(seems way too small to bother) ,2,5 and 10 gallons seem like normal recipe sizes ,but easy enough to double/triple,leave as is ,cut in half or 1/3's respectively to make a cheap 5 gallon cooler MT work and stay within a limited budget. Understand the water boil off /add rate. Much appreciated.

I can't say I knew anything at the time or what my gravity was but I split a 5 gallon batch in half. No idea what efficiency, but I didn't have a valve on my 5 gallon mash tun and no filter so I scooped the grains and smashed the liquid out.

Don't do that.

Get a ball valve, nipple and screen. You don't need a $50 bottom, just the inside of a dishwasher hose. most brass is lead free now or spend the $10 for a stainless kit.

If you decide to graduate to 5 gallon batches, your cheap mash tun can then become the hot liquor tank for fly sparge water and the screen can move to the new mash tun.

So easy. Here's the recipe I used: https://beerrecipes.org/Recipe/2656/citra-cascade-ipa.html

This is essentially what these guys do. A little boring but it gets the job done.
https://youtu.be/YDqnFPgpb-0

 

[Norselord]

I have invested about a thousand dollars in capital improvements with the result of saving about $10 per batch in operating costs.

People who homebrew:

• Engineers
• Survivalists
• Chefs/Cooks
• Chemists
• Biologists
• Mavericks

People who do NOT homebrew:

• Accountants
• Financial Planners
• Economists