The Saison Thread

[harrymel1]

Someone didn't read the whole thread... tisk tisk tisk.

I looked again, didn't see any. Link?

 

[Farnsworth]

I looked again, didn't see any. Link?

We were talking about them on page 4, starting here.

I think the consensus was:

 

[harrymel1]

We were talking about them on page 4, starting here.

I think the consensus was:

Very good. Du Bois was the first Saison that busted my nuts. I think they be my favorite Saisons makers. By a substantial margin.

 

[tcblack4d]

They ferment with 3711. Technically, it is a saison.

Perhaps, but I doubt any of the top farmhouse/saison brewers would likely say sour mashing is a good method for brewing sour beer since none of them promote it or do it.

 

[bsc]

comparing a wild/brett beer (aka top farmhouse/saison brewers) to a sour mash/sour wort sacch only beer is kinda comparing apples to oranges.

 

[tcblack4d]

comparing a wild/brett beer (aka top farmhouse/saison brewers) to a sour mash/sour wort sacch only beer is kinda comparing apples to oranges.

Yep. Westbrook Gose is a sour wort for example. I don't think it belongs on this thread.

 

[PHBoiler]

I had fairly low expectations but Higashino from Tahoe Mountain was a solid saison. It was a 9/2014 bottle. It could go much longer as the Brett was still fairly young. It delivered on the bottle notes. You get peppercorn, pear juice, and floral notes. It was close to an amber body. ABV was right on point on the low end. I could use a hint more carb. It had a hint of dryness on the finish. I don't know what these run for the 500 mL as I got one as an extra, but it exceeded my low expectations. It was a slightly poor man's Seizoen Bretta in terms of flavor profile but it lacked that level of carb and the Brett development. I did like it better than standard Logsdon Seizoen.

 

[jivex5k1]

Had an Edith last night, **** me it was good. Are all Hill Farmstead saisons that sour?

 

[beerandraiderfan]

Is Jester King de miel or whatever a saison? Tasted like it, and was delicious.

Thank you miikezombie dat beer kicked ass.

 

[thejukes]

Is Jester King de miel or whatever a saison? Tasted like it, and was delicious.

Thank you miikezombie dat beer kicked ass.

I am 99% sure it is. I am 100% sure it is a delight.

 

[nophunk]

I had fairly low expectations but Higashino from Tahoe Mountain was a solid saison. It was a 9/2014 bottle. It could go much longer as the Brett was still fairly young. It delivered on the bottle notes. You get peppercorn, pear juice, and floral notes. It was close to an amber body. ABV was right on point on the low end. I could use a hint more carb. It had a hint of dryness on the finish. I don't know what these run for the 500 mL as I got one as an extra, but it exceeded my low expectations. It was a slightly poor man's Seizoen Bretta in terms of flavor profile but it lacked that level of carb and the Brett development. I did like it better than standard Logsdon Seizoen.

I think this crushed all recent Bretta's I've had! Terrific sleeper beer, very well executed IMO.

 

[Thorpe]

Had an Edith last night, **** me it was good. Are all Hill Farmstead saisons that sour?

Most of the HF saisons are somewhat tart, but aren't particularly sour. That could be either an outlier bottle or maybe one of the first batch bottles of Edith. Or maybe you just meant tart and I'm reading into the language thinking you mean quite sour.

 

[jivex5k1]

Most of the HF saisons are somewhat tart, but aren't particularly sour. That could be either an outlier bottle or maybe one of the first batch bottles of Edith. Or maybe you just meant tart and I'm reading into the language thinking you mean quite sour.

My palate isn't refined enough to differentiate tart and sour. It was a 2014 bottle, definitely more sour than I expected but I'm not talking about upland level sourness here.

It had a some funk in it too but the sourness was stronger than the funk.

 

[drgarage1]

My palate isn't refined enough to differentiate tart and sour. It was a 2014 bottle, definitely more sour than I expected but I'm not talking about upland level sourness here.

It had a some funk in it too but the sourness was stronger than the funk.

There is no real difference between tart and sour. It's arguable that you could have a tart-tasting beer that contains no actual lactic or acetic acid, but comes across as tart because it's so dry and the PH low enough to be tart.

There are those who might try to separate "tart" as being with lactic acid only and "sour" as a combination of lactic and acetic acid (malic acid would be a different issue and require a different term), but this is, to be frank, super-dumb. Having made an all lactic berlinerweisse that I believe to be below 3 in PH, it is definitely sour and not tart. The only objective measure would be either PH (or titratable acidity, but that doesn't make a lot of sense either, as the "net sourness," somewhat reflected by PH, is a more accurate depiction of how it will taste).

TLR shut up, Pete.

 

[abawol01]

There is no real difference between tart and sour. It's arguable that you could have a tart-tasting beer that contains no actual lactic or acetic acid, but comes across as tart because it's so dry and the PH low enough to be tart.

There are those who might try to separate "tart" as being with lactic acid only and "sour" as a combination of lactic and acetic acid (malic acid would be a different issue and require a different term), but this is, to be frank, super-dumb. Having made an all lactic berlinerweisse that I believe to be below 3 in PH, it is definitely sour and not tart. The only objective measure would be either PH (or titratable acidity, but that doesn't make a lot of sense either, as the "net sourness," somewhat reflected by PH, is a more accurate depiction of how it will taste).

TLR shut up, Pete.

Liked for inadvertent smiley

 

[Thorpe]

There is no real difference between tart and sour. It's arguable that you could have a tart-tasting beer that contains no actual lactic or acetic acid, but comes across as tart because it's so dry and the PH low enough to be tart.

There are those who might try to separate "tart" as being with lactic acid only and "sour" as a combination of lactic and acetic acid (malic acid would be a different issue and require a different term), but this is, to be frank, super-dumb. Having made an all lactic berlinerweisse that I believe to be below 3 in PH, it is definitely sour and not tart. The only objective measure would be either PH (or titratable acidity, but that doesn't make a lot of sense either, as the "net sourness," somewhat reflected by PH, is a more accurate depiction of how it will taste).

TLR shut up, Pete.

Ha, yeah, I was going for subjective with "tart" being tasting just a little bit acidic and "sour" being fairly acidic.

 

[drgarage1]

Ha, yeah, I was going for subjective with "tart" being tasting just a little bit acidic and "sour" being fairly acidic.

It's the only definition that makes real sense -- jivex5k has tended to want to learn about this style, so trying to fill in what one of the short hands used by nerds.

 

[jivex5k1]

The only objective measure would be either PH (or titratable acidity, but that doesn't make a lot of sense either, as the "net sourness," somewhat reflected by PH, is a more accurate depiction of how it will taste).

I just use this scale:

I'd put Edith just before the lemon.

 

[drgarage1]

I am 99% sure it is. I am 100% sure it is a delight.

Technically, it's a bier de miel, which is basically a saison made with honey. Anna and East Bank are other contemporary examples of the style.

 

[thejukes]

Technically, it's a bier de miel, which is basically a saison made with honey. Anna and East Bank are other contemporary examples of the style.

Bière de Miel, actually. Do you even français, frère?

Thanks for clarifying, though. Glad it ended up with me being right. Happens all the time.

 

[Snarf1]

It's arguable that you could have a tart-tasting beer that contains no actual lactic or acetic acid, but comes across as tart because it's so dry and the PH low enough to be tart.

All beer is acidic. Any beer that actually tastes acidic or tart or sour or whatever you want to call it contains acid at a level beyond the perception threshold. It doesn't have to be lactic or acetic, but if a beer tastes 'sour', it's because there is acid in it.

Technically, it's a bier de miel, which is basically a saison made with honey. Anna and East Bank are other contemporary examples of the style.

Are you technically making **** up or technically talking out of your ass here?

 

[drgarage1]

All beer is acidic. Any beer that actually tastes acidic or tart or sour or whatever you want to call it contains acid at a level beyond the perception threshold. It doesn't have to be lactic or acetic, but if a beer tastes 'sour', it's because there is acid in it.



Are you technically making **** up or technically talking out of your ass here?

Neither?

Dupont claims it has made Biere de miel since 1880.
http://www.brasserie-dupont.com/dupont/en/7002-biere-de-miel-bio.html

They talk about it semi-generically, as if their name for it is the name of a style as opposed to their clever name for what it is.

The beers I cited all fit that classification.

 

[Snarf1]

Neither?

Dupont claims it has made Biere de miel since 1880.
http://www.brasserie-dupont.com/dupont/en/7002-biere-de-miel-bio.html

They talk about it semi-generically, as if their name for it is the name of a style as opposed to their clever name for what it is.

The beers I cited all fit that classification.

'Beer with honey' isn't any more a style than 'beer with sugar'.

First brewed in '97 per the bottom of this page (and the link you posted now that I look at it). Great article on Dupont. Can't remember if I saw it here or on FB, but I hope I thanked whoever posted it. Really good stuff.

 

[libbey]

You two better not ruin my favorite thread on TB.

 

[Thorpe]

'Beer with honey' isn't any more a style than 'beer with sugar'.

First brewed in '97 per the bottom of this page (and the link you posted now that I look at it). Great article on Dupont. Can't remember if I saw it here or on FB, but I hope I thanked whoever posted it. Really good stuff.

That page has been making the rounds for a while. I posted it the Saison, Biere de Garde, and Farmhouse Ale Appreciation group a week or two ago in response to someone asking for saison history outside of Yvan's overview in Farmhouse Ales.

 

[drgarage1]

You two better not ruin my favorite thread on TB.

sowwy

 

[Snarf1]

You two better not ruin my favorite thread on TB.

I think it's OK. Just warming up for FFB season with drgarage. Hell, you're in our league!

 

[RyanG1]

sowwy

I think it's OK. Just warming up for FFB season with drgarage. Hell, you're in our league!

 

[Thorpe]

Jandrain-Jandrenouille IV. An amazing beer from a vastly under-appreciated brewery. Hay and mild grain alongside floral and faint earthy notes. Light body with a very dry, crisp finish.

 

[MooseLang]

Jandrain-Jandrenouille IV. An amazing beer from a vastly under-appreciated brewery. Hay and mild grain alongside floral and faint earthy notes. Light body with a very dry, crisp finish.

IV is very good, but I am a sucker for their VI Wheat Saison. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in the world who likes it as much as I do. Every year at Max's Belgian Fest, I get a full pour of it.

Unfortunately, every time I order it online, it is well past it's freshness date. Just not the same.