The original Lager thread.. Everything you ever wanted to know or ask

[zeg]

I just looked up your model number and saw that it's a wine mini-fridge. That's quite different, as it'd be rare to need temperatures below 40°F for wine storage. That post may be correct. If you search Frigidaire's website for that model number, it's discontinued, but a more recent model shows up. In the manual, the stated temperature range is 41-64°F (or something, I forgot the high limit). However, if you read the reviews, someone complains that it runs colder than it claims, down into the low 30s.

So I bet it does run colder than advertised. I'd recommend getting a digital thermometer with a remote probe (on a wire). Use it to measure the temperature in there accurately. It's the only way to be sure (other than nuking from orbit). It doesn't have to be expensive, but I have found mine to be invaluable.

 

[tommyguner03]

thanks for doing some research.. i didnt even think about going to frididaire's website. i will have to get a digital thermometer. and hope everything works out.

 

[tommyguner03]

ok so i stuck a digital meat thermometer in the fridge for 30min and the temp was at 40 degrees. and thats only on the middle selection for temp range. i would move the temp down but i have some beer and soda in the fridge so i dont want any bombs again

 

[zeg]

sounds good. That's probably low enough to do a decent lagering, though it'd be nice to get a bit lower. Drink your beer and soda and see how low it can go. If it's about 30°F or above you should be able to lager at its lowest setting. That's nice, even if you decide to nudge it up, since you know you don't have to worry about bumping the setting too low.

 

[tennesseean_87]

How long has it been lagering? I personally think if it's less than 2 months, I wouldn't bother.

5 weeks at 40Fish, but I used cold-fermented notty, not a lager yeast. Will that make a difference (as in will it completely floc out at cooler temps where lager yeast wouldn't)?

 

[zeg]

5 weeks at 40Fish, but I used cold-fermented notty, not a lager yeast. Will that make a difference (as in will it completely floc out at cooler temps where lager yeast wouldn't)?

No experience with that, but when in doubt I'd cast a vote for adding a small amount of fresh yeast as insurance. I think you'd be ok either way, but it'd be a much bigger PITA to have a batch of uncarbed beer than to have a tiny extra bit of yeast in each bottle.

 

[CDGoin]

Adding honey to secondary after 7 days fermenting @ 50F, 1 day D-Rest @ 65F

It's kind of a follow up to when I added 2 lbs of honey to the boil of my last ocktoberfest.. I loved the final product, but it was a bit dry. Want it a bit more sweet a little less dry. So read it maybe better to put into the secondary.

But that would kick start the fermentation again wouldn't it..?

Would another D-rest be in order..?

Should I just go into Lagering and what comes out comes out..? How long..?

 

[zeg]

Adding honey to secondary after 7 days fermenting @ 50F, 1 day D-Rest @ 65F [...]

Speaking theoretically and assuming you're naturally bottle conditioning, I think you're asking for trouble trying to obtain residual sweetness by adding fermentables late in the fermentation. You run a pretty serious risk of overcarbonating.

It might work if the "sweetness" you mean is the flavor or aroma of the honey rather than its actual residual sugar contribution. The theory (which is at least vaguely plausible, not sure if it's been rigorously tested) is that aromatics are blown off during vigorous primary fermentation. You may have more apparent honey flavor or aroma from a secondary addition, even if you ferment fully dry.

If you're force-carbing you may have more options, though I've mostly seen these discussed for mead or cider. I'm not sure how many of those methods are effective for beers.

 

[TrickyDick]

ok so i stuck a digital meat thermometer in the fridge for 30min and the temp was at 40 degrees. and thats only on the middle selection for temp range. i would move the temp down but i have some beer and soda in the fridge so i dont want any bombs again

The first, and only, lager I've brewed was fermented and then lagered in a small mini fridge first in a bucket, then racked to secondary carboy, etc.
One suggestion I would make, and why I haven't made another lager (yet), is that I could not easily rack off all the crud because by the time I removed the carboy and lifted it to countertop level, I stirred up all the crud/trub. Some folks sounds like they let it sit and settle again.

However, it is possible to use one of the plastic/rubbery carboy caps with two holes to perform a floor-level transfer without disturbing the trub using low pressure CO2 and a racking cane. The alternative is to set your mini fridge on the countertop, or simply wait for the trub to settle again. I suspect it would take quite some time to settle again. I used a fining agent in the lagering carboy before racking to keg, and a second fining in the keg as I recall. My first lager I was quite concerned about a clear finished beer.

Now I have a conical, so I can dump the junk. Gonna take a stab at Kai's helles recipe soon. How friendly is the 830 yeast? Are there other friendlier yeasts to work with?

TD

 

[Bulls Beers]

The first, and only, lager I've brewed was fermented and then lagered in a small mini fridge first in a bucket, then racked to secondary carboy, etc.
One suggestion I would make, and why I haven't made another lager (yet), is that I could not easily rack off all the crud because by the time I removed the carboy and lifted it to countertop level, I stirred up all the crud/trub. Some folks sounds like they let it sit and settle again.

However, it is possible to use one of the plastic/rubbery carboy caps with two holes to perform a floor-level transfer without disturbing the trub using low pressure CO2 and a racking cane. The alternative is to set your mini fridge on the countertop, or simply wait for the trub to settle again. I suspect it would take quite some time to settle again. I used a fining agent in the lagering carboy before racking to keg, and a second fining in the keg as I recall. My first lager I was quite concerned about a clear finished beer.

Now I have a conical, so I can dump the junk. Gonna take a stab at Kai's helles recipe soon. How friendly is the 830 yeast? Are there other friendlier yeasts to work with?

TD

I always move my better bottles from the lagering chamber and carry it over to the counter. As long as I'm not bouncing it around too much, it usually settles in a minute or two. I'll take it from primary and rack right to a keg. Maybe the first glass or so might have a little floating around, but not much.

I'm lagering Kai's Helles recipe right now. It's been in the keg for a few weeks now. I have a keg in front of it, so It should be lagering for 6-8 weeks. I tried it when I racked to the keg and it tasted really good..If it comes out the way I think it will, I'll start making it in 10 gallon batches. Cheers!!

 

[TrickyDick]

Cool! Let us know. Did you use the 830 yeast? I'm tempted to use dry lager yeast.


TD

 

[Bulls Beers]

Cool! Let us know. Did you use the 830 yeast? I'm tempted to use dry lager yeast.


TD

Yes. I use 830 a lot. Ferments out well...

 

[TrickyDick]

Kai's recipe calls out a different way to measure hops than what I am used to, in g/l I think.
I was going to use magnum .5 oz x60min, then .5oz of hallertau for next two additions i think 45 and 15 min - for 11 gal. This sound good to you?
In beersmith, the range appropriate for style bars show ibus toward the lower end of the range.

Brew day is either 4/21 or 4/28. Gonna brew with a friend and split the cost, under $50. Trying to get more friends into hobby.

TD

 

[Bulls Beers]

Kai's recipe calls out a different way to measure hops than what I am used to, in g/l I think.
I was going to use magnum .5 oz x60min, then .5oz of hallertau for next two additions i think 45 and 15 min - for 11 gal. This sound good to you?
In beersmith, the range appropriate for style bars show ibus toward the lower end of the range.

Brew day is either 4/21 or 4/28. Gonna brew with a friend and split the cost, under $50. Trying to get more friends into hobby.

TD

My Hop schedule is close to yours. Mine is
Magnum- .45oz/boil for 50min
Hallertauer Middelfrueh- .55oz/boil for 40min
Hallertauer Middelfrueh- .55oz/boil for 15min

IBU's 19.5

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks! My IBUs at 18.5. Might tweak to a little more, since no IBUs given in original recipe. Will obviously be tweaking anyway once I get the hops to brew this with since just guessing on AA%.
I'll let y'all know how my first stab at this goes.

TD

 

[CDGoin]

OK.. just had a debate with a friend (who was a home brewer "back in the day" and "may" know more than me on teh subject).

I say Pilsner is a distinct style of Lager and different from Budwieser/Miller/Coors as those are an american style pale lagers.. I know the Pilsners I have had from Germany are different.

There is no "beechwood aging" or Rice or corn German/Czech Pilsners and thats only some of the differences.

 

[TrickyDick]

OK.. just had a debate with a friend (who was a home brewer "back in the day" and "may" know more than me on teh subject).

I say Pilsner is a distinct style of Lager and different from Budwieser/Miller/Coors as those are an american style pale lagers.. I know the Pilsners I have had from Germany are different.

There is no "beechwood aging" or Rice or corn German/Czech Pilsners and thats only some of the differences.

I not a lager expert so I am not sure I can answer the exact question. However, it is my understanding that the beechwood is used to accelerate the maturation process, so that they can get their beers to market faster. I am not sure if it offers any beneficial effect on flavor/taste. I know they steam the beechwood staves and that they are reused.

TD

 

[37OliveStBrews]

What's the thought on sampling your beer from the keg while lagering?

 

[Bulls Beers]

For me, I'll wait. I just racked a Dunkel from primary to keg. When I checked my finally gravity, I'll taste it then. Once it's in the keg, I leave it until I tap it. Which is usually 6 weeks or so.

 

[mblanks2]

This is great information as I just finished my first lager. I have a dedicated fermentation/lagering chamber and have just completed a Czech Budvar clone. It's an extract version, but I think it should turn out fine. My chamber is set-up currently for 51*F fermentation temperature. I plan a diacetyl rest after 10 days or so at 65*F, then to lager at 40*F for four weeks. Then I will switch over to a 48 hour cold crash at 34*f, then bottle and condition for 3 - 6 weeks. The chamber I have built is designed with Wi-Fi capabilities where I can check the current temperatures via smart phone or computer as well as make adjustments.
The information given by Yooper about bottling with Nottingham is good information, as I was concerned about the conditioning phase.
Again, this is a great thread and I hope my first lager turns out as good as I expect.

 

[Bulls Beers]

I bet it will... The more you make the better they'll be..

 

[TrickyDick]

I just ordered my ingredients. Went with wlp838 yeast. Will be making the starter later in the week.


TD

 

[Bulls Beers]

I have a dark lager that I brewed recently, but it wasn't dark enough. I'd like to add some extra carafa, but without the flavor. My question is, should I ass more right at the end of the mash? Will I get the color I need without the added flavor?

 

[Ddubduder]

See that all depends on how much you need your brew assistant. I find if I ass right at the beginning, my assistant become lightheaded and passes out leaving me to do the work; however, if I ass towards the end we can keep working together and then I get a good laugh watching him pass out, but after the heavy lifting is over. Really I have no clue about the actual answer, just couldn't help myself with a good ass autocorrect. Cheers!

 

[zeg]

Earlier this year, I brewed a Bock and realized its color was lighter than I wanted. I had some old, probably stale, chocolate malt on hand. I wanted to avoid picking up any of the roast malt flavor, so I cold-steeped some of this overnight (just add the crushed malt to a few cups of cold water). When that was done, I boiled it briefly to sterilize and added it to the fermentor either just before or soon after pitching.

This seems to have worked. The beer is not yet finished, but the samples I took didn't have any of the chocolate malt character. I imagine this would be your best shot, though I don't know how effectively the cold steeping actually worked. I only used something like a quarter pound of chocolate malt, so it may be that it would not have given an appreciable contribution in any case.

 

[StoneHands]

I have a dark lager that I brewed recently, but it wasn't dark enough. I'd like to add some extra carafa, but without the flavor. My question is, should I ass more right at the end of the mash? Will I get the color I need without the added flavor?

I've run into this with a dunkel I've made in the past. The first stab I took at it, the flavor was spot on, but it was just a tad light. The second stab, I used a darker carafa special, and the flavor changed, but the color was spot on. The next time, I think I'll go back to the original recipe and change the percentages on the grain. I think what you're proposing would work, you'd get less of a flavor addition from a grain addition at the end of the mash.

I think it's sort of cheating, but you could use something like Sinamar to get the color addition too.

 

[TrickyDick]

Got my yeast today. Ordered 2 day S&H (Nearly $19) 3 tubes w/ 3 ice packs. (Overnight was over $35) plus a 1oz pack of german magnum pellet hops. In FL, they JUST delivered 6:45 PM. box was warm. ARGH!
Wish there was a better option for this stuff..

Anyway, WLP 838 3 vials. two say best by 7/20 and one best by 6/27. Says they were bottled 4 months before best by date making the production/bottling/100% viable date: 2.27 & 3.30(x2)

So... here is the tricky part. If I want to brew on 4/21 (11 days from today) when to make my starter, and how to "fudge" the born on date to calculate the additional 11 days of aging (now they'll be in fridge however)?

Does it really matter? YES! Its like a 6% difference in viability.

I think I'm going to have to first figure out how many viable cells I have among the 3 vials per Mr Malty or Yeast Calc, and Then I can proceed to determine how to build my starter and from there, try and figure WHEN to make it, and account for time to step up/cold crash the thing, so that its ready by brew day.

TD

 

[Bulls Beers]

Got my yeast today. Ordered 2 day S&H (Nearly $19) 3 tubes w/ 3 ice packs. (Overnight was over $35) plus a 1oz pack of german magnum pellet hops. In FL, they JUST delivered 6:45 PM. box was warm. ARGH!
Wish there was a better option for this stuff..

Anyway, WLP 838 3 vials. two say best by 7/20 and one best by 6/27. Says they were bottled 4 months before best by date making the production/bottling/100% viable date: 2.27 & 3.30(x2)

So... here is the tricky part. If I want to brew on 4/21 (11 days from today) when to make my starter, and how to "fudge" the born on date to calculate the additional 11 days of aging (now they'll be in fridge however)?

Does it really matter? YES! Its like a 6% difference in viability.

I think I'm going to have to first figure out how many viable cells I have among the 3 vials per Mr Malty or Yeast Calc, and Then I can proceed to determine how to build my starter and from there, try and figure WHEN to make it, and account for time to step up/cold crash the thing, so that its ready by brew day.

TD

I have a keg of Kai's helles recipe. It's been lagering for about 8 weeks. I've been anxious to taste it, So I hooked up the gas and went for it. Even though it's flat, it tasted really good. I have a keg in front of this one, so I probably won't throw it in the kegerator for a few more weeks, but It's gonna be good.

The only thing is, that I might have used a bit too much acidulated malt. I think if I scale that back just a little, I will be good to go. We will see when it's properly carb. I can't wait..

 

[TrickyDick]

well I think I am going to do a 3L starter on a stir plate, and start it 6 days before brew day. With one step up also 3 Liters. so a 2 stage starter with 3L and 3 tubes and I'll estimate my total cell count right now is 250, less than Mr Malty or yeast calc guesses, on account of warm temps for shipping. Heck even if its only 200 cell count with three vials right now, I'd be ok. I'd rather slightly overpitch than underpitch. this gives me 2-3 days for each stage of starter fermentation plus a goodly amount of leeway for cold-crashing. If I do it all in my 5 L starter flask I can even consider just doing 2.5 steps and only cold crashing once.

TD

 

[Bulls Beers]

You have plenty of time for a starter. Even with a step up. I usually need 4 to 5 days with a step up starter.