The OFFICIAL Low Oxygen Brewing Thread, AKA lodo, lowdo, LOB

[passedpawn]

I guess the only issue you have to overcome is that thick, long lasting, shaving cream like foam. Almost there [emoji41]

In the Netherlands, they'd swipe that foam off with a scraper before serving. For them, major faux pas to serve like that.

I'm drinking a homebrew pils at the moment that just has the perfect head. It's halfway gone, but still sporting this wonderful 1/4" foam. I probably should dispense more aggressively to get rid of some of the carbonation, but I've got these awesome flow control taps and they make a really nice glass.

 

[Big Monk]

Ok do you attribute this brilliantly clear beer to the absence of oxygen or lagering? It seems plausible because as you are no doubt aware one of the ways chill haze occurs is through the polymerisation of flavanoids. Flavanoids themselves are too small and they remain soluble and thus invisible however when they oxidise and begin to polymerise the polyphenol produced is able to crosslink protein molecules and produce a much less soluble chain. We see this as chill haze. With time the oxidised flavanoids can even become tanniods and result in permanent haze, gulp!



Furthermore its my understanding that German breweries themselves at least the large ones all use PVPP which is Reinheitsgebot compliant as it doesn't actually dissolve in water or alcohol and is completely removed by filtration. The curios thing is to my mind why you do not need to use finings like PVPP when they do and the answer is not readily discernable either. I really wondered what German brewers used to fine their beers because clearly things like gelatine and isinglass must be out of the question.

A high level clarity overview would be:

1.) Mash with a bag (pseudo mash filter)/gallotannins in mash (think Brewtan B)
2.) Remove hot break (whirlpool)
3.) Precipitate cold break and remove (chill fast and whirlpool)
4.) Use as high a floccing yeast as you can get away with
5.) Pitch trub free healthy yeast
6.) Carry over as little yeast as possible to serving vessel (while still getting the right carbonation)
7.) Lager properly (time and temperature)

 

[passedpawn]

I don’t. Never had a problem with brilliantly clear beers.


View attachment 417931

Yea, that's clear. Looks like a low gravity beer and only pils. I brew a lot of those. I do use gelatin as a fining agent. I highly recommend it.

 

[Big Monk]

Yea, that's clear. Looks like a low gravity beer and only pils. I brew a lot of those. I do use gelatin as a fining agent. I highly recommend it.

The issue with gelatin (or adding anything post fermentation) in Low oxygen brewing would be the oxygen introduced when adding it.

 

[MSK_Chess]

A high level clarity overview would be:

1.) Mash with a bag (pseudo mash filter)/gallotannins in mash (think Brewtan B)
2.) Remove hot break (whirlpool)
3.) Precipitate cold break and remove (chill fast and whirlpool)
4.) Use as high a floccing yeast as you can get away with
5.) Pitch trub free healthy yeast
6.) Carry over as little yeast as possible to serving vessel (while still getting the right carbonation)
7.) Lager properly (time and temperature)

Sure Scotty all good and valid procedures. However haze, at least chill haze is caused by the agglomeration of protein and polyphenolic materials as described above some of which will inevitably make it through to the fermenter i would imagine. Was reading this below.

Taken in combination, boiling and wort cooling remove 17-35% of the
total protein content, depending upon the malt variety and hop
product/variety used. Cold break formation is temperature
dependent, only forming in significant quantities below 20-30C,
and increasing dramatically in quantity as the temperature is
further decreased. The removal of these cold break particles can
be facilitated and enhanced by kettle finings allowing the re-moval of up to a further 20% of malt derived protein.

So what appears to be the case is that hot and cold break removal only account for so much removal of proteins and the use of kettle finings about another 20% Of real interest though is that these proteins dramatically precipitate out as the temperature decreases even further, so perhaps wort chilling prior to pitching is a really good idea. Just stick the fermenter in the fridge, let the protiens fall out of suspension, let the temp come up to pitching temp and pitch then? Seems plausible.

 

[MSK_Chess]

The issue with gelatin (or adding anything post fermentation) in Low oxygen brewing would be the oxygen introduced when adding it.

actually when adding PVPP you re-hydrate it in freshly boiled water and usually under a blanket of CO2 if possible. I actually added a small amount of SMB last time I used it. The same with gelatin, you are encouraged to use prebioled water that has cooled.

 

[Big Monk]

Sure Scotty all good and valid procedures. However haze, at least chill haze is caused by the agglomeration of protein and polyphenolic materials as described above some of which will inevitably make it through to the fermenter i would imagine. Was reading this below.

Taken in combination, boiling and wort cooling remove 17-35% of the
total protein content, depending upon the malt variety and hop
product/variety used. Cold break formation is temperature
dependent, only forming in significant quantities below 20-30C,
and increasing dramatically in quantity as the temperature is
further decreased. The removal of these cold break particles can
be facilitated and enhanced by kettle finings allowing the re-moval of up to a further 20% of malt derived protein.

So what appears to be the case is that hot and cold break removal only account for so much removal of proteins and the use of kettle finings about another 20% Of real interest though is that these proteins dramatically precipitate out as the temperature decreases even further, so perhaps wort chilling prior to pitching is a really good idea. Just stick the fermenter in the fridge, let the protiens fall out of suspension, let the temp come up to pitching temp and pitch then? Seems plausible.

You can certainly try to attack it from whatever angle you desire. No arguments there but if you adhere to that list I posted, you’ll be on your way. Those steps are the way to go. Clearest beer you can muster into the fermenter.

 

[Big Monk]

actually when adding PVPP you re-hydrate it in freshly boiled water and usually under a blanket of CO2 if possible. I actually added a small amount of SMB last time I used it. The same with gelatin, you are encouraged to use prebioled water that has cooled.

If you need finings in the finished beer then I’m sure there are a number of ways to attack it.

Cracking the vessel to add finings is something we advise against. That’s all. You’ve spent a ton of energy excluding oxygen so opening the keg goes against that.

 

[schematix]

What about injecting something like gelatin in through the gas port to avoid opening the lid? Seems like a safer route.

For the record, I am completely against the idea of adding finings after the boil.... seems like too much risk.

 

[MSK_Chess]

If you need finings in the finished beer then I’m sure there are a number of ways to attack it.

Cracking the vessel to add finings is something we advise against. That’s all. You’ve spent a ton of energy excluding oxygen so opening the keg goes against that.

yes i could skoosh them in under pressure via a PET bottle, panic over problem solved.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Yea, that's clear. Looks like a low gravity beer and only pils. I brew a lot of those. I do use gelatin as a fining agent. I highly recommend it.

92% pils 8% carahell 1.048.

Doesn’t matter the beer they are all crystal clear. No reason to use fining agents when I don’t need too.

 

[MSK_Chess]

You can certainly try to attack it from whatever angle you desire. No arguments there but if you adhere to that list I posted, you’ll be on your way. Those steps are the way to go. Clearest beer you can muster into the fermenter.

Actually Scotty I don't have a problem with haze of any kind, beer is crystal clear every time even when served at very cold temps. I just wondered how German brewers fined their beer in view of the Reinheitsgebot and whether you guys followed some kind of example.

If you like you could also add some of the following to your list because it does impact at least to a degree the effective treatment of haze forming proteins and polyphenols.

selection of raw materials
avoidance of high protein malts
limited use of high nitrogen adjuncts
use of low polyphenol malts
care in the use of hop extracts or oils
correct mashing regimes
correct and controlled mash temp
avoidance of over sparging
long cold conditioning times
correct fining regimes
scrupulous limitation of oxygen ingress

 

[Die_Beerery]

Ok do you attribute this brilliantly clear beer to the absence of oxygen or lagering? It seems plausible because as you are no doubt aware one of the ways chill haze occurs is through the polymerisation of flavanoids. Flavanoids themselves are too small and they remain soluble and thus invisible however when they oxidise and begin to polymerise the polyphenol produced is able to crosslink protein molecules and produce a much less soluble chain. We see this as chill haze. With time the oxidised flavanoids can even become tanniods and result in permanent haze, gulp!



Furthermore its my understanding that German breweries themselves at least the large ones use PVPP which is Reinheitsgebot compliant as it doesn't actually dissolve in water or alcohol and is completely removed by filtration. The curios thing is to my mind why you do not need to use finings like PVPP when they do and the answer is not readily discernable either.



I really wondered what German brewers used to fine their beers because clearly things like gelatine and isinglass must be out of the question. Perahaps lagering at -1C (30F) for a prolonged period would precipitate these chill haze forming elements out? I really wish i had the patience to try it.

Both. Though my lagering is never more than 2 weeks at -1 or so.

This is what he beer looks at 2 weeks from brewday
View attachment IMG_3564.jpg

At 3-4 weeks from brewday it’s basically brilliantly clear

View attachment IMG_3640.jpg



Germans are certainly using pvpp and other things for that matter that they can filter out. Shelf stability is their concern. They want to get 9-12 months out of that beer.

 

[Big Monk]

Actually Scotty I don't have a problem with haze of any kind, beer is crystal clear every time even when served at very cold temps. I just wondered how German brewers fined their beer in view of the Reinheitsgebot and whether you guys followed some kind of example.

If you like you could also add some of the following to your list because it does impact at least to a degree the effective treatment of haze forming proteins and polyphenols.

selection of raw materials
aviodance of high protien malts
limited use of high nitrogen adjuncts
use of low polyphenol malts
care in the use of hop extracts or oils
correct mashing regimes
correct and controled mash temp
aviodance of over sparging
long cold conditioning times
correct fining regimes
scrupulous limitation of oxygen ingress

Sure. That would make it more than a “high level” overview but the whole method is out of that territory anyway!

 

[MSK_Chess]

Both. Though my lagering is never more than 2 weeks at -1 or so.

This is what he beer looks at 2 weeks from brewday
View attachment 418020

At 3-4 weeks from brewday it’s basically brilliantly clear

View attachment 418021



Germans are certainly using pvpp and other things for that matter that they can filter out. Shelf stability is their concern. They want to get 9-12 months out of that beer.

Very interesting. it would suggest to me that in your case lagering at fairly cold temps (-1C) for a prolonged period (4 weeks) has resulted in a crystal clear beer.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Sure. That would make it more than a “high level” overview but the whole method is out of that territory anyway!

One day I will learn to read a malt report, i promise!

 

[Die_Beerery]

Well....Sort of but not really, the cold lagering phase (-1)is never more than 2 weeks. So it’s ferment for 5, transfer to spund until day 7(1 week from brewday). Day 8 start cooling towards lagering then hold for 1-2 weeks. Transfer to serving. Serving at 3-4 weeks from brewday.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Does anyone know how many years ago the mega-breweries transitioned to LoDO?

And as to microbreweries, I've heard that the award winning Traquair House was fermenting in open top kettles (with trap doors) in the 1970's. Would breweries at their level now be using LoDO?

 

[MSK_Chess]

Well....Sort of but not really, the cold lagering phase (-1)is never more than 2 weeks. So it’s ferment for 5, transfer to spund until day 7(1 week from brewday). Day 8 start cooling towards lagering then hold for 1-2 weeks. Transfer to serving. Serving at 3-4 weeks from brewday.

makes sense

 

[MSK_Chess]

Does anyone know how many years ago the mega-breweries transitioned to LoDO?

And as to microbreweries, I've heard that the award winning Traquair House was fermenting in open top kettles (with trap doors) in the 1970's. Would breweries at their level now be using LoDO?

Some UK breweries still use open top fermenters for ales, Timothy Taylor an awarding winning brewery in Keighley does. Lagers might be a different proposition altogether though. What I find interesting is that many UK breweries had souring tanks, essentially for mixing soured wort and beer but did away with them after the 1980's. I suspect they may make a comeback though! Guinness I think has made the transition to LODO, cannot say about others though.

As for Traquair they are way old school, still use a boil kettle from 1720's and they claim to be the only UK brewery left fermenting its beer in unlined oak vessels some of which are 200 years old! I always fancied a wood fired boil kettle myself. One day I am gonna take a spare keg into the hills and build a fire and make some beer in the forest. Would have to be a full volume BIAB I reckon though.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Probably 80’s..ish. It was very widely known in the late 90’s.

 

[schematix]

All the traditional style pub beers I had in the UK during a trip last year tasted oxidized. Even from casks labeled as being tapped that day.

The Becks and European Budweiser tasted low oxygen. The Becks was gross though. Diacetyl bomb.

 

[jwalk4]

Some UK breweries still use open top fermenters for ales, Timothy Taylor an awarding winning brewery in Keighley ....

Timothy Taylor also pre boils : https://youtu.be/4Cak4stt9v4 (4:20ish)

 

[Hanglow]

Traquair still use the old oak FVs for primary fermentation but the old brewery is retired, they have a relatively modern one next the old one.

All the traditional style pub beers I had in the UK during a trip last year tasted oxidized. Even from casks labeled as being tapped that day.

The Becks and European Budweiser tasted low oxygen. The Becks was gross though. Diacetyl bomb.

All of them? You must have been unlucky, but it's certainly a problem, there's lots of **** cask beer about and too many pubs don't know how to take care of them.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

All the traditional style pub beers I had in the UK during a trip last year tasted oxidized. Even from casks labeled as being tapped that day.

There's oxidation and oxidation though. Yes there's a lot of crap cask out there - but at the same time the nature of cask means that even something that's been "tapped" that day, will have been pegged at least the day before, the yeast need oxygen to complete cask conditioning. Possibly more - IIRC the official Tim Taylors advice for Landlord is 5 days without even a soft spile in, as it has such a vigorous secondary fermentation.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Timothy Taylor also pre boils : https://youtu.be/4Cak4stt9v4 (4:20ish)

Oh yes! I will make a pilgrimage to that brewery one day!

 

[brewbama]

I’d like to see a video of a commercial brewery that uses LODO.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Wow, Timothy Taylor mashes for up to 5 hours. Their process doesn't look all that LoDO.

 

[jwalk4]

There's oxidation and oxidation though. Yes there's a lot of crap cask out there - but at the same time the nature of cask means that even something that's been "tapped" that day, will have been pegged at least the day before, the yeast need oxygen to complete cask conditioning.

Zymurgy did an article recently on just this sort of thing. Here is a quick study they completed with water and o2 ingress when preparing and serving cask style.

I chortled arrogantly at the statement "levels of oxygen in closed casks were only 4.6 mg/L"

But Still, these results aren't clear cut: in the example given using beer in the 2nd last paragraph, is there lower oxygen (100ppb) due to the secondary fermentation for carbonation? Or is the DO level low from the compounds reacting with oxygen? Or, again, is the carbonation (low though it may Be) affecting a DO reading in finished beer?

Probably a combination of a multitude of factors.

I think the answer regarding oxidation and taste preference is going to come down to the beer style and beer drinker, unfortunately.

 

[Big Monk]

I’d like to see a video of a commercial brewery that uses LODO.

Assuming you could find a brewery tour video with that level of detail you want to look at Weihenstephan, Ayinger, Bitburger, Budweiser, Guinness, Hill Farmstead, Troegs, Allagash, Uinta, Victory, etc.

Any of the big macros concerned about shelf life for sure, but even the “smaller” breweries that have either a Krones or Braukon brewhouse are certainly of the same mindset.

Another way to know would be to look at which technical universities teaching brewing use Kunze as course material. Follow those graduates right to the source!

 

[schematix]

All of them? You must have been unlucky, but it's certainly a problem, there's lots of **** cask beer about and too many pubs don't know how to take care of them.

Not a complete scientific sampling . I did my best to drink as much and as many as I could but that covered only a few places and multiple taps per place.

I think it’s part of the taste profile of that style.

 

[Braufessor]

Thanks for sharing all this information guys...... I have been gradually shifting my lager brewing practice over based on a lot of the information I have gathered from your posts on AHA, your site, etc.

I have gone to deoxygenating brewing water, mash cap, some low amounts of NaMeta, careful recirculation, etc. I also now brew different batch sizes and use kegs as my primary fermenter and simply add spunding valve toward end of fermentation. Kegs really make a great closed fermentation option.

One thing that I have been doing is then leaving the beer on they yeast longer before closed transfer to keg, or bottling straight out of the primary. I even ended up leaving a beer right in the primary for about 8 weeks in my fridge. Dropped brilliantly clear and ended up being one of the best pilsners I had ever brewed. The extra care and steps add a bit of additional time/work - but the results I have had as I incorporated the various techniques have definitely helped me brew some really nice beers.

In regard to commercial breweries..... I know Bryan is in Minnesota..... I was at Utepils during NHC and we got a short tour. They alluded to an oxygen free process. I think this was relatively soon after they had gotten going. Do you know much about their process and how their beers have been? I thought the beers I had when we were there were quite good. I know they were getting ready to start canning..... have not had any since I was up for that, but curious if you have had their beers and how they are holding up with their canning process.

 

[Big Monk]

Thanks for sharing all this information guys...... I have been gradually shifting my lager brewing practice over based on a lot of the information I have gathered from your posts on AHA, your site, etc.

I have gone to deoxygenating brewing water, mash cap, some low amounts of NaMeta, careful recirculation, etc. I also now brew different batch sizes and use kegs as my primary fermenter and simply add spunding valve toward end of fermentation. Kegs really make a great closed fermentation option.

One thing that I have been doing is then leaving the beer on they yeast longer before closed transfer to keg, or bottling straight out of the primary. I even ended up leaving a beer right in the primary for about 8 weeks in my fridge. Dropped brilliantly clear and ended up being one of the best pilsners I had ever brewed. The extra care and steps add a bit of additional time/work - but the results I have had as I incorporated the various techniques have definitely helped me brew some really nice beers.

In regard to commercial breweries..... I know Bryan is in Minnesota..... I was at Utepils during NHC and we got a short tour. They alluded to an oxygen free process. I think this was relatively soon after they had gotten going. Do you know much about their process and how their beers have been? I thought the beers I had when we were there were quite good. I know they were getting ready to start canning..... have not had any since I was up for that, but curious if you have had their beers and how they are holding up with their canning process.

Glad to hear you are liking the results!

 

[newuser12345]

Assuming you could find a brewery tour video with that level of detail you want to look at Weihenstephan, Ayinger, Bitburger, Budweiser, Guinness, Hill Farmstead, Troegs, Allagash, Uinta, Victory, etc.

Any of the big macros concerned about shelf life for sure, but even the “smaller” breweries that have either a Krones or Braukon brewhouse are certainly of the same mindset.

Another way to know would be to look at which technical universities teaching brewing use Kunze as course material. Follow those graduates right to the source!

lol, no, just no.....

 

[thekraken]

lol, no, just no.....

Sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it.....

 

[newuser12345]

Sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it.....

Hill farmstead does not follow low oxygen brewhouse procedures as outlined in the available scientific literature.

 

[h22lude]

Hill farmstead does not follow low oxygen brewhouse procedures as outlined in the available scientific literature.

Not sure where you get your info from...any of it really. But I'll take the word of a pro brewer who knows hill farmstead over what you say. Hill Farmstead definitely brews as low oxygen as possible. They are looking at parts per billion. That is low oxygen.

https://www.hopculture.com/interview-oxbow-brewer-tyler-titu-sildve/

 

[Die_Beerery]

In regard to commercial breweries..... I know Bryan is in Minnesota..... I was at Utepils during NHC and we got a short tour. They alluded to an oxygen free process. I think this was relatively soon after they had gotten going. Do you know much about their process and how their beers have been? I thought the beers I had when we were there were quite good. I know they were getting ready to start canning..... have not had any since I was up for that, but curious if you have had their beers and how they are holding up with their canning process.

I have tried their Kolsch and I found it vegetal, lacking fresh malt, and it had the look of HSA. If they are brewing low oxygen, they are missing the mark. I found the beer lackluster.

 

[newuser12345]

Not sure where you get your info from...any of it really. But I'll take the word of a pro brewer who knows hill farmstead over what you say. Hill Farmstead definitely brews as low oxygen as possible. They are looking at parts per billion. That is low oxygen.

https://www.hopculture.com/interview-oxbow-brewer-tyler-titu-sildve/

It looks as though you are confusing quality assurance with low oxygen brewing. post ferm low DO is quality assurance and is part of virtually any legitimate breweries protocol, regardless of their brew day and fermentation management. This is any easy mistake to make since the two loudest low oxygen advocates in this thread are misinterpreting good quality assurance with actual low oxygen brewing.

It looks as though you are confusing quality assurance with low oxygen brewing. post ferm low DO is quality assurance and is part of virtually any legitimate breweries protocol, regardless of their brew day and fermentation management. This is any easy mistake to make since the two loudest low oxygen advocates in this thread are misinterpreting good quality assurance with actual low oxygen brewing.

 

[h22lude]

It looks as though you are confusing quality assurance with low oxygen brewing. post ferm low DO is quality assurance and is part of virtually any legitimate breweries protocol, regardless of their brew day and fermentation management. This is any easy mistake to make since the two loudest low oxygen advocates in this thread are misinterpreting good quality assurance with actual low oxygen brewing.

Directly from the article that I assume you didn't read...

"The stuff that they’re doing in eliminating dissolved oxygen in all parts of their process is definitely inspiring..."

Can't get any clearer than that.