German Pils The Lazy German (raw, warm fermented pilsener)

[Chetbrews]

Nice! Glad it turned out ok. Why such a short mash? I would recommend at least an hour. This increases efficiency and creates a mix of longer and shorter sugars which might result in a better body and taste. Another thing is that the longer the mash is held at mash temperature, the better the pasteurisation.

Now I would actually recommend to heat up the wort, after collection, to 75C and to hold it there for five to ten minutes to make sure that the wort is bug free. But this is just a safety meassure and as it seems, you are not having issues with infections so you were lucky anyway.

I do not know if s-189 is really a good idea to use warm, so maybe try out a proven one like 3470 or wlp800 instead. WLP800 is my personal favourite. Really really clean flavour. Your initial harshness might be caused by bad yeast choice.

Edit: I see that I recommend the 30 min mash in the text myself... what was I thinking?

Haha! I thought you had mentioned a 30 minute mash, I went back and checked the original post, but also think it would be interesting to try a 60 minute mash. I will need to take better notes next time and make sure I try the 34/70 yeast.

 

[Miraculix]

Haha! I thought you had mentioned a 30 minute mash, I went back and checked the original post, but also think it would be interesting to try a 60 minute mash. I will need to take better notes next time and make sure I try the 34/70 yeast.

I would actually now prefer wlp800 or mangrove Jack California lager to the 3470.

 

[Chetbrews]

I've been looking for an excuse to try the Mangrove Jack's yeast line, I think I will give it a go next time, thanks!

 

[Miraculix]

I've been looking for an excuse to try the Mangrove Jack's yeast line, I think I will give it a go next time, thanks!

But use two packs of mj on a 4 or 5 gallon batch. Some people had problems with a slow start otherwise (I did not).

 

[Beer666]

Finally after much delay i am going to try another raw beer. I don't think the MJ cali starter i have will be ready in time so going to use the crossmyloof kolsch yeast. I have made loads of batches with this yeast and it performs consistently and is very lagery and clean at higher temps.
One thing i don't quite get is the brewers friend IBU calculator. The time before i just steeped the hops but this time i want to boil it like you have done for more bitterness. I would like to collect the first runnings and sparge in a bucket and pasteurise with the flavour additions for 20m then put in a no chill cube. I am unsure though what to enter in the IBU calculator. If i enter a boil size of 4l and a batch size of 21l for 20g of magnum 11 AA it says 2.38 IBU. What am i doing wrong here?

 

[Miraculix]

Finally after much delay i am going to try another raw beer. I don't think the MJ cali starter i have will be ready in time so going to use the crossmyloof kolsch yeast. I have made loads of batches with this yeast and it performs consistently and is very lagery and clean at higher temps.
One thing i don't quite get is the brewers friend IBU calculator. The time before i just steeped the hops but this time i want to boil it like you have done for more bitterness. I would like to collect the first runnings and sparge in a bucket and pasteurise with the flavour additions for 20m then put in a no chill cube. I am unsure though what to enter in the IBU calculator. If i enter a boil size of 4l and a batch size of 21l for 20g of magnum 11 AA it says 2.38 IBU. What am i doing wrong here?

Have you set the og to 1.0?

 

[Beer666]

Have you set the og to 1.0?

No i had not. Now it makes sense. Thanks Miraculix. Brewing tomorrow.

 

[Miraculix]

No i had not. Now it makes sense. Thanks Miraculix. Brewing tomorrow.

Great, let us know how it turns out!

My raw Pilsener turned out to be not long lasting.... so it would be good to know if it was because of an infection or because it was raw. Would be nice if you could keep a few bottles for longer than a month and tell us if the tastes goes downhill, as the taste of mine did.

 

[Beer666]

Good idea. I will put some bottles aside for a while and if its good you can have one. None of my other raw beers went off as far as i know. I did give some away and had some good feedback from a 2 month old stout and the saison was much older before it got drunk.

 

[Miraculix]

Good idea. I will put some bottles aside for a while and if its good you can have one. None of my other raw beers went off as far as i know. I did give some away and had some good feedback from a 2 month old stout and the saison was much older before it got drunk.

That is good news! I didn't do a 70 degrees wort pasteurization step with mine, maybe this would have helped. I would recommend heating the wort for about 10- 15 min to about 73 degrees c , just to be sure it is clean of unwanted bugs.

 

[Miraculix]

@Ninoid

Please read the two posts above. What do you think? Maybe this could also be the reason for your raw beer turning bad after a month? Maybe the pasteurization step would help? Did you try it?

 

[Ninoid]

@Ninoid

Please read the two posts above. What do you think? Maybe this could also be the reason for your raw beer turning bad after a month? Maybe the pasteurization step would help? Did you try it?

I always heat wort up to 79'C, pour hot to fermenter and no chill one day. Only difference from above is that I not wait up to 15 minute on that temperature, but temperature in fermeneter is above 60'C hours after pouring.
I think that bugs is not problem because my beers is drinkable after one month, but loss aroma and flavor and they get an unpleasant smell. I think that is because is too much proteins in wort.

Next problem is bitterness. Bitterness is god, but always have sour taste.
I have tried various ways of hopping and always feel that mild acidity. I'm not saying that's bad because such a beer is really thirsty, but is not good for APA, IPA, Stout and some other styles.

 

[Miraculix]

I always heat wort up to 79'C, pour hot to fermenter and no chill one day. Only difference from above is that I not wait up to 15 minute on that temperature, but temperature in fermeneter is above 60'C hours after pouring.
I think that bugs is not problem because my beers is drinkable after one month, but loss aroma and flavor and they get an unpleasant smell. I think that is because is too much proteins in wort.

Next problem is bitterness. Bitterness is god, but always have sour taste.
I have tried various ways of hopping and always feel that mild acidity. I'm not saying that's bad because such a beer is really thirsty, but is not good for APA, IPA, Stout and some other styles.

Mild acidity is actually a hint that it might be infected.

Maybe the no chill is also a problem. Too much time for other bugs to multiply before the yeast is introduced.

 

[Beer666]

I can imagine it going off quickly if you don't pasteurise . I am sitting here drinking the raw stout i made on Valentines day and it tastes great. Certainly no off flavours, in fact tastes lots better than when i last tried it (kveik yeast). I cant remember exactly how i brewed that but i always do a mashout and probably sparged at 75c. The hops were in with the grain. Then i would of put it into a cube until pitching temp.
I cant brew tonight as realised my pump has broken after setting up the gear. I was looking forward to doing a midsummers raw beer.

 

[Ninoid]

I can imagine it going off quickly if you don't pasteurise . I am sitting here drinking the raw stout i made on Valentines day and it tastes great. Certainly no off flavours, in fact tastes lots better than when i last tried it (kveik yeast). I cant remember exactly how i brewed that but i always do a mashout and probably sparged at 75c. The hops were in with the grain. Then i would of put it into a cube until pitching temp.
I cant brew tonight as realised my pump has broken after setting up the gear. I was looking forward to doing a midsummers raw beer.

Do you can find recipe of this stout?

 

[Ninoid]

Mild acidity is actually a hint that it might be infected.

Maybe the no chill is also a problem. Too much time for other bugs to multiply before the yeast is introduced.

I am convinced that infection is not a problem because there are no traces of taste or smell of infection. If the infection is present, the acidity would be very pronounced and much faster would change the taste. So far I've only made beer with Magnum hop. Tomorrow I bottling beer with some other hop so I'll see if there is a weak sour taste.

 

[Miraculix]

I am convinced that infection is not a problem because there are no traces of taste or smell of infection. If the infection is present, the acidity would be very pronounced and much faster would change the taste. So far I've only made beer with Magnum hop. Tomorrow I bottling beer with some other hop so I'll see if there is a weak sour taste.

Some yeasts also create slight tartness during fermentation. Some get more tart the warmer they are fermented. Maybe it is that?

 

[Ninoid]

Some yeasts also create slight tartness during fermentation. Some get more tart the warmer they are fermented. Maybe it is that?

This could be because I do not have the temperature control of fermentation. I used the US-05 mainly because it is pure fermented at the upper temperature limits, which is often the case with me.
Today I'm bottling No Boil / No Chill Saison with Styrian Dana hop and, at least in a young beer, I feel pure bitterness without any acidity. In two weeks I plan to try it and see if it has changed.

 

[Beer666]

Beer has now been fermenting 36 hours at 18c. Same as your recipe but i added 10% wheat and adjusted the water amounts for my setup. I over sparged and ended up with 25l of 1044 wort. That's good enough for me. I held it at 75c for 20 mins with 100g of mittlefruh then put into the cube to chill overnight. I did not do a separate boil as i bought some pre isomerised hop extract. Will add it at the end of fermentation. Wort smelled lovely. Was an easy brew day. I really cant wait to try this.

 

[Miraculix]

Beer has now been fermenting 36 hours at 18c. Same as your recipe but i added 10% wheat and adjusted the water amounts for my setup. I over sparged and ended up with 25l of 1044 wort. That's good enough for me. I held it at 75c for 20 mins with 100g of mittlefruh then put into the cube to chill overnight. I did not do a separate boil as i bought some pre isomerised hop extract. Will add it at the end of fermentation. Wort smelled lovely. Was an easy brew day. I really cant wait to try this.

That is an interesting approach with the extract. Let us know how it turns out!

 

[Beer666]

That is an interesting approach with the extract. Let us know how it turns out!

I need to find the dosage instructions as there are none on the bottle (apart from dose to taste and be cautious) but apparently its instant. I also bought some mittlefruh aroma oil which smells great. I might practice on a starter.
The raw kolsch seems to have finished fermenting, have to be patient and leave it a few weeks before crashing but from what i can see its already started to settle after 72 hours. If i can get a beer looking as clear as yours i will be a happy man.

 

[Miraculix]

I need to find the dosage instructions as there are none on the bottle (apart from dose to taste and be cautious) but apparently its instant. I also bought some mittlefruh aroma oil which smells great. I might practice on a starter.
The raw kolsch seems to have finished fermenting, have to be patient and leave it a few weeks before crashing but from what i can see its already started to settle after 72 hours. If i can get a beer looking as clear as yours i will be a happy man.

The bottle stood in the fridge for more than a week, that's why it is so clear!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Be cautious on the alpha extract - it’s pretty concentrated. I don’t have my notes with me so don’t quote me on this but IIRC the Richie’s extract I use works out at about 4 IBU from 1ml in 20 litres of wort.

Other manufacturers will be different, you should be able to find a spec sheet somewhere.

 

[Beer666]

Here is the raw kolsch. Been carbing in the keg for 2 days, brewed 25th June. Its actually a bit clearer than it looks in the photo. Would say its about as clear as a boiled version at this time. I would expect it to clear a little more in a week if it lasts that long. First time i have dry hopped with this yeast (crossmyloof kolsch) though so maybe that has made it a bit hazier. Tastes just like a boiled beer to me. Its crisp, clean, refreshing and moorish with some nice lacing. I will be trying some different yeast next time as i have used this one a lot but i would highly recommend giving it a go. I added another 10 IBU's of oil to the keg as i didn't think it had enough bite. The oil has definitely been a success and well worth having. Next batch i will boil the hops like you did to see if i can get any more flavour.
Cheers mate i would of never brewed this without your thread.

 

[Miraculix]

Here is the raw kolsch. Been carbing in the keg for 2 days, brewed 25th June. Its actually a bit clearer than it looks in the photo. Would say its about as clear as a boiled version at this time. I would expect it to clear a little more in a week if it lasts that long. First time i have dry hopped with this yeast (crossmyloof kolsch) though so maybe that has made it a bit hazier. Tastes just like a boiled beer to me. Its crisp, clean, refreshing and moorish with some nice lacing. I will be trying some different yeast next time as i have used this one a lot but i would highly recommend giving it a go. I added another 10 IBU's of oil to the keg as i didn't think it had enough bite. The oil has definitely been a success and well worth having. Next batch i will boil the hops like you did to see if i can get any more flavour.
Cheers mate i would of never brewed this without your thread.
View attachment 579198

Great to hear that it was a success! I actually also got a pack of crossmyloof yeast flying around, the Belgian one.

Gonna use it at some point

 

[Ninoid]

I currently no have time for brewing, but have too much beers in fridge.
My No Boil / No Chill Saison is still very good for drinking. After one month from bottling.

 

[Miraculix]

I currently no have time for brewing, but have too much beers in fridge.
My No Boil / No Chill Saison is still very good for drinking. After one month from bottling.

Hahaha, I know this problem party well.I also got way too much beer so I decided to brew only small batches at the moment, till I got rid of all the stuff I currently have in stock.

 

[Beer666]

I have loads of old beer i don't want to drink. I brew more than even i can swill. Beer is now perfectly clear. Will have a new batch on the go soon.

 

[Miraculix]

I have loads of old beer i don't want to drink. I brew more than even i can swill. Beer is now perfectly clear. Will have a new batch on the go soon.

View attachment 579815

That looks pretty yummy to me!

Does it also have this enhanced graininess which I experienced with my raw pilsener? I thought this fits the pilsener style perfectly.

 

[Beer666]

That looks pretty yummy to me!

Does it also have this enhanced graininess which I experienced with my raw pilsener? I thought this fits the pilsener style perfectly.

I took a gravity reading last night as i forgot when i was bottling. Very surprised to find out its 1015. I remember now this was the first brew with a new pump and the temps went into the 70's at one point. I thought i had gotten away with it but it must of produced plenty of unfermentables. Strange thing is it does not taste sweet in any way which i good as i like my beer dry. So i cant really answer about the graininess until i brew another one after i retune my system.

 

[Miraculix]

I took a gravity reading last night as i forgot when i was bottling. Very surprised to find out its 1015. I remember now this was the first brew with a new pump and the temps went into the 70's at one point. I thought i had gotten away with it but it must of produced plenty of unfermentables. Strange thing is it does not taste sweet in any way which i good as i like my beer dry. So i cant really answer about the graininess until i brew another one after i retune my system.

I think this might be more yeast related than temperature. Some non fermentable just don't taste sweet, this can be the case here!

 

[Miraculix]

Brewed another version of this one here yesterday. Aimed at a higher sulfate level of around 200ppm, used gypsum for this.

81% mo pale
10% flaked oats
7% melanoidin malt
2% acidulated malt

Mashed at around 65c for one hour with lots of stirring.

Motueka hops in plain water for 30ibus
25% of the hops @30min
25% of the hops @10 min
50% of the hops @ 3 min plus letting it stand for about 10 min after flame out.

Will probably dry hop with 2g/l with the same hop.

Og came in as 1.052, almost 85% efficiency .

The oats are in there to enhance shelf stability and to boost yeast health. They won't contribute anything to the taste at all.

The yeast is mangrove jack California lager.

I am fermenting this in the kettle I mashed in. After removing the grain bag and adding the hop tea, I brought it up to 75c, this should have pasteurized the liquid and the kettle itself.

Cooled it afterwards in the sink down to room temp and just sprinkled a pack of the yeast on top to further eliminate possible sources of contamination during rehydration.

I duck taped the kettle lid (yes, I am 105% professional ) to close it almost air tight.

MC gyver would be proud of me.

 

[Ninoid]

I gave up the No Boil method. Most because the smell and the taste quickly deteriorate. I think 15-minute boil combined with hop tea for bitterness best of both techniques (Boil / No Boil).

 

[Miraculix]

I gave up the No Boil method. Most because the smell and the taste quickly deteriorate. I think 15-minute boil combined with hop tea for bitterness best of both techniques (Boil / No Boil).

This is my last attempt on it. If it does not work propperly, I will try the 15 min boil.

I read that oats should enhance the shelf live, combined with a pasteurization of the whole equipment used, I hope that this beer will stay good longer.

If it does not, I will try what you said.

Other people had success with this method, the beer stayed good for way longer than a month. I think that our beers might just have been infected. But who knows....

 

[Ninoid]

I drink No Boil beer after month and half and it is drinkable (not infected), but have strange smell and taste.

 

[Miraculix]

I drink No Boil beer after month and half and it is drinkable (not infected), but have strange smell and taste.

Strange smell and taste can be caused by an infection. Infection does not mean that the beer has to be completely undrinkable!

 

[Miraculix]

We have now low than 30 degrees Celsius in the UK and my beer is still in the heavy krausen phase, meaning second day of fermentation without any temperature control.

Now the mj yeast can really show what it is capable of!

Lager at saison temperatures, if this works out, it would be brilliant.

 

[Ninoid]

We have now low than 30 degrees Celsius in the UK and my beer is still in the heavy krausen phase, meaning second day of fermentation without any temperature control.

Now the mj yeast can really show what it is capable of!

Lager at saison temperatures, if this works out, it would be brilliant.

I try beer with W-34/70 at 27'C and is disasters. Esters is overflowing and beer is poured in WC.

 

[Miraculix]

I try beer with W-34/70 at 27'C and is disasters. Esters is overflowing and beer is poured in WC.

Hahaha, ok that sounds very "promising"

 

[Ninoid]

But, I hear that W-34/70 can work very good at 28'C (brulosophy), but with few pack of dry yeast or strong starter that is started on 12'C (in fridge) and, on high krausen, poured in fermenter.