German Pils The Lazy German (raw, warm fermented pilsener)

[Miraculix]

This is going a bit left-field, but Borneman et al. 2016 left WLP800 Pilsner Lager out of their list of hybrid yeasts - which kinda implies that it's a regular ale yeast. Maybe it's a contaminant, maybe it's just adapted to Urquell's open fermenters (it has a reputation for top-cropping), but it might be an interesting one to play around with. Most Czech lager yeasts are Saaz group and hence less good for warm ferments, but WLP800 could be the exception.

Interesting read. Also worth mentioning that one of the white labs larger yeasts seems to be genetically an ale yeast. Maybe worth checking if that one ferments nicely at room temperature.

 

[Miraculix]

Just to let you know guys, this beer has a very short life span. Drink it within the first 2 or 3 weeks, or you risk it going bad. You can extend the life span by storing it as cold as possible.

 

[Miraculix]

Little update on this one, what I percieved as a short life span were actually esthers that have been produced due to heavily fluctuating fermentation temperatures.

The beer is not changing since over a month now and it is multiple months old now.

I did not give it enough time in the fermenter to clean things up but rushed and bottled when fermentation was finished.

Not a good idea!

In other words, keep temperature stable and give it two or three weeks after fermentation finished to clear up.

Skol!

 

[Belmont_Brewery]

Somebody help me out here...

I'm doing a 40l batch to pump up my pils stock. The entries into brewersfriend maps aren't super helpful, if it is indeed true that the hops produce more bitterness when boiled in water. The IBU levels I get from brewing calculators varies greatly, and having made some hop tea and milled the malt... I'm nervous.

My "good" saaz based pils (I got so, so much saaz) are usually 35-45 IBUs. Brewers friend is telling me 23, which is a bit low. I've had a few beers turn out too malty lately, and I tend to preference the bitterness.
Anyway.
Someone who's used this method before: please look over my recipe, and tell me if I need to re-boil (or re-start, as I said MUCH saaz to use up) my hop tea. Please and thank you.

40 litre batch
6.5 kg pils
.2 kg caramel pils
.1 kg Munich
.05 kg meladonian (literally dregs)

Hop tea: 13 litres
100g Saaz 3.7% 30 minutes
40g saaz 3.7% 5 minutes
(Placed in freezer, effectively no chill)

So guys doing 2.5 gal batches: that would be like 25g of bittering hops.

Anywhere near the mark?

 

[Miraculix]

You are spot on! I would get 41 Ibus according to my calcs, as I added 20 min to each hop for the fact that it is no chill. You might even wanna add 30 min for that reason.

 

[Belmont_Brewery]

Cheers. I'll report back with some happy snaps in a month or so!

 

[Chetbrews]

Long time reader, first time posting on Homebrewtalk! I was intrigued by a no boil lager as I think I have always picked up DMS whenever I have brewed a light beer (ale or lager). I gave this a shot and mashed it on my Picobrew Zymatic back in November 2017. I did a 30 minute mash with 3 gallons of water at 151 degrees with 6 lbs of Rahr 2 row malt and 4.8 ounces of Melanoidan malt. I took about a half gallon of water and boiled .2 ounces of 12.7% Magnum pellet hop for 23 minutes on my stove. It was a really quick brew day. Can't remember what specific yeast I used, it was either s-189 yeast or w-34/70. Fermented in basement at room temps around 62 to 64 degrees (16-17 C) Started at 1.040 and ended at 1.004. First impressions - no detectable DMS but the beer was harsh on the palate. I dropped the keg in my keezer and forgot about it until now. Was about to pour out the beer to make room to brew another beer but decided to pull another sample (4/9/18). Second impressions- Lagering makes a difference! The harshness to the palate has eased quite a bit. After a few sips, I can tell that this is a lager beer. I am finishing my second glass and figure I will drink it down instead of pouring it out. Definitely warrents another brew again.

 

[Miraculix]

Long time reader, first time posting on Homebrewtalk! I was intrigued by a no boil lager as I think I have always picked up DMS whenever I have brewed a light beer (ale or lager). I gave this a shot and mashed it on my Picobrew Zymatic back in November 2017. I did a 30 minute mash with 3 gallons of water at 151 degrees with 6 lbs of Rahr 2 row malt and 4.8 ounces of Melanoidan malt. I took about a half gallon of water and boiled .2 ounces of 12.7% Magnum pellet hop for 23 minutes on my stove. It was a really quick brew day. Can't remember what specific yeast I used, it was either s-189 yeast or w-34/70. Fermented in basement at room temps around 62 to 64 degrees (16-17 C) Started at 1.040 and ended at 1.004. First impressions - no detectable DMS but the beer was harsh on the palate. I dropped the keg in my keezer and forgot about it until now. Was about to pour out the beer to make room to brew another beer but decided to pull another sample (4/9/18). Second impressions- Lagering makes a difference! The harshness to the palate has eased quite a bit. After a few sips, I can tell that this is a lager beer. I am finishing my second glass and figure I will drink it down instead of pouring it out. Definitely warrents another brew again.

Nice! Glad it turned out ok. Why such a short mash? I would recommend at least an hour. This increases efficiency and creates a mix of longer and shorter sugars which might result in a better body and taste. Another thing is that the longer the mash is held at mash temperature, the better the pasteurisation.

Now I would actually recommend to heat up the wort, after collection, to 75C and to hold it there for five to ten minutes to make sure that the wort is bug free. But this is just a safety meassure and as it seems, you are not having issues with infections so you were lucky anyway.

I do not know if s-189 is really a good idea to use warm, so maybe try out a proven one like 3470 or wlp800 instead. WLP800 is my personal favourite. Really really clean flavour. Your initial harshness might be caused by bad yeast choice.

Edit: I see that I recommend the 30 min mash in the text myself... what was I thinking?

 

[Beer666]

Hi Miraculix, I was randomly searching raw beers and came across this excellent thread. I have made a few raw beers. A saison and a stout and both have been good but i would of never thought of doing a lager. It is such a good idea to boil up the hops separately as i had no real idea what the IBU's would be. I will definitely have to try this out and use my chiller. Last times i did no chill. I don't have wlp800 so will be using wyeast 2124 instead. No problems with infections so far and the beer lasts ages. Always done a mashout in the past. Cheers

 

[Miraculix]

Hi Miraculix, I was randomly searching raw beers and came across this excellent thread. I have made a few raw beers. A saison and a stout and both have been good but i would of never thought of doing a lager. It is such a good idea to boil up the hops separately as i had no real idea what the IBU's would be. I will definitely have to try this out and use my chiller. Last times i did no chill. I don't have wlp800 so will be using wyeast 2124 instead. No problems with infections so far and the beer lasts ages. Always done a mashout in the past. Cheers

According to this experoiment http://brulosophy.com/2017/07/10/fe...-pt-8-lager-yeast-wyeast-2124-bohemian-lager/ it might be a good yeast for warm lagers!

Please share your experiences afterwards!

Cheers!

 

[Chetbrews]

Nice! Glad it turned out ok. Why such a short mash? I would recommend at least an hour. This increases efficiency and creates a mix of longer and shorter sugars which might result in a better body and taste. Another thing is that the longer the mash is held at mash temperature, the better the pasteurisation.

Now I would actually recommend to heat up the wort, after collection, to 75C and to hold it there for five to ten minutes to make sure that the wort is bug free. But this is just a safety meassure and as it seems, you are not having issues with infections so you were lucky anyway.

I do not know if s-189 is really a good idea to use warm, so maybe try out a proven one like 3470 or wlp800 instead. WLP800 is my personal favourite. Really really clean flavour. Your initial harshness might be caused by bad yeast choice.

Edit: I see that I recommend the 30 min mash in the text myself... what was I thinking?

Haha! I thought you had mentioned a 30 minute mash, I went back and checked the original post, but also think it would be interesting to try a 60 minute mash. I will need to take better notes next time and make sure I try the 34/70 yeast.

 

[Miraculix]

Haha! I thought you had mentioned a 30 minute mash, I went back and checked the original post, but also think it would be interesting to try a 60 minute mash. I will need to take better notes next time and make sure I try the 34/70 yeast.

I would actually now prefer wlp800 or mangrove Jack California lager to the 3470.

 

[Chetbrews]

I've been looking for an excuse to try the Mangrove Jack's yeast line, I think I will give it a go next time, thanks!

 

[Miraculix]

I've been looking for an excuse to try the Mangrove Jack's yeast line, I think I will give it a go next time, thanks!

But use two packs of mj on a 4 or 5 gallon batch. Some people had problems with a slow start otherwise (I did not).

 

[Beer666]

Finally after much delay i am going to try another raw beer. I don't think the MJ cali starter i have will be ready in time so going to use the crossmyloof kolsch yeast. I have made loads of batches with this yeast and it performs consistently and is very lagery and clean at higher temps.
One thing i don't quite get is the brewers friend IBU calculator. The time before i just steeped the hops but this time i want to boil it like you have done for more bitterness. I would like to collect the first runnings and sparge in a bucket and pasteurise with the flavour additions for 20m then put in a no chill cube. I am unsure though what to enter in the IBU calculator. If i enter a boil size of 4l and a batch size of 21l for 20g of magnum 11 AA it says 2.38 IBU. What am i doing wrong here?

 

[Miraculix]

Finally after much delay i am going to try another raw beer. I don't think the MJ cali starter i have will be ready in time so going to use the crossmyloof kolsch yeast. I have made loads of batches with this yeast and it performs consistently and is very lagery and clean at higher temps.
One thing i don't quite get is the brewers friend IBU calculator. The time before i just steeped the hops but this time i want to boil it like you have done for more bitterness. I would like to collect the first runnings and sparge in a bucket and pasteurise with the flavour additions for 20m then put in a no chill cube. I am unsure though what to enter in the IBU calculator. If i enter a boil size of 4l and a batch size of 21l for 20g of magnum 11 AA it says 2.38 IBU. What am i doing wrong here?

Have you set the og to 1.0?

 

[Beer666]

Have you set the og to 1.0?

No i had not. Now it makes sense. Thanks Miraculix. Brewing tomorrow.

 

[Miraculix]

No i had not. Now it makes sense. Thanks Miraculix. Brewing tomorrow.

Great, let us know how it turns out!

My raw Pilsener turned out to be not long lasting.... so it would be good to know if it was because of an infection or because it was raw. Would be nice if you could keep a few bottles for longer than a month and tell us if the tastes goes downhill, as the taste of mine did.

 

[Beer666]

Good idea. I will put some bottles aside for a while and if its good you can have one. None of my other raw beers went off as far as i know. I did give some away and had some good feedback from a 2 month old stout and the saison was much older before it got drunk.

 

[Miraculix]

Good idea. I will put some bottles aside for a while and if its good you can have one. None of my other raw beers went off as far as i know. I did give some away and had some good feedback from a 2 month old stout and the saison was much older before it got drunk.

That is good news! I didn't do a 70 degrees wort pasteurization step with mine, maybe this would have helped. I would recommend heating the wort for about 10- 15 min to about 73 degrees c , just to be sure it is clean of unwanted bugs.

 

[Miraculix]

@Ninoid

Please read the two posts above. What do you think? Maybe this could also be the reason for your raw beer turning bad after a month? Maybe the pasteurization step would help? Did you try it?

 

[Ninoid]

@Ninoid

Please read the two posts above. What do you think? Maybe this could also be the reason for your raw beer turning bad after a month? Maybe the pasteurization step would help? Did you try it?

I always heat wort up to 79'C, pour hot to fermenter and no chill one day. Only difference from above is that I not wait up to 15 minute on that temperature, but temperature in fermeneter is above 60'C hours after pouring.
I think that bugs is not problem because my beers is drinkable after one month, but loss aroma and flavor and they get an unpleasant smell. I think that is because is too much proteins in wort.

Next problem is bitterness. Bitterness is god, but always have sour taste.
I have tried various ways of hopping and always feel that mild acidity. I'm not saying that's bad because such a beer is really thirsty, but is not good for APA, IPA, Stout and some other styles.

 

[Miraculix]

I always heat wort up to 79'C, pour hot to fermenter and no chill one day. Only difference from above is that I not wait up to 15 minute on that temperature, but temperature in fermeneter is above 60'C hours after pouring.
I think that bugs is not problem because my beers is drinkable after one month, but loss aroma and flavor and they get an unpleasant smell. I think that is because is too much proteins in wort.

Next problem is bitterness. Bitterness is god, but always have sour taste.
I have tried various ways of hopping and always feel that mild acidity. I'm not saying that's bad because such a beer is really thirsty, but is not good for APA, IPA, Stout and some other styles.

Mild acidity is actually a hint that it might be infected.

Maybe the no chill is also a problem. Too much time for other bugs to multiply before the yeast is introduced.

 

[Beer666]

I can imagine it going off quickly if you don't pasteurise . I am sitting here drinking the raw stout i made on Valentines day and it tastes great. Certainly no off flavours, in fact tastes lots better than when i last tried it (kveik yeast). I cant remember exactly how i brewed that but i always do a mashout and probably sparged at 75c. The hops were in with the grain. Then i would of put it into a cube until pitching temp.
I cant brew tonight as realised my pump has broken after setting up the gear. I was looking forward to doing a midsummers raw beer.

 

[Ninoid]

I can imagine it going off quickly if you don't pasteurise . I am sitting here drinking the raw stout i made on Valentines day and it tastes great. Certainly no off flavours, in fact tastes lots better than when i last tried it (kveik yeast). I cant remember exactly how i brewed that but i always do a mashout and probably sparged at 75c. The hops were in with the grain. Then i would of put it into a cube until pitching temp.
I cant brew tonight as realised my pump has broken after setting up the gear. I was looking forward to doing a midsummers raw beer.

Do you can find recipe of this stout?

 

[Ninoid]

Mild acidity is actually a hint that it might be infected.

Maybe the no chill is also a problem. Too much time for other bugs to multiply before the yeast is introduced.

I am convinced that infection is not a problem because there are no traces of taste or smell of infection. If the infection is present, the acidity would be very pronounced and much faster would change the taste. So far I've only made beer with Magnum hop. Tomorrow I bottling beer with some other hop so I'll see if there is a weak sour taste.

 

[Miraculix]

I am convinced that infection is not a problem because there are no traces of taste or smell of infection. If the infection is present, the acidity would be very pronounced and much faster would change the taste. So far I've only made beer with Magnum hop. Tomorrow I bottling beer with some other hop so I'll see if there is a weak sour taste.

Some yeasts also create slight tartness during fermentation. Some get more tart the warmer they are fermented. Maybe it is that?

 

[Ninoid]

Some yeasts also create slight tartness during fermentation. Some get more tart the warmer they are fermented. Maybe it is that?

This could be because I do not have the temperature control of fermentation. I used the US-05 mainly because it is pure fermented at the upper temperature limits, which is often the case with me.
Today I'm bottling No Boil / No Chill Saison with Styrian Dana hop and, at least in a young beer, I feel pure bitterness without any acidity. In two weeks I plan to try it and see if it has changed.

 

[Beer666]

Beer has now been fermenting 36 hours at 18c. Same as your recipe but i added 10% wheat and adjusted the water amounts for my setup. I over sparged and ended up with 25l of 1044 wort. That's good enough for me. I held it at 75c for 20 mins with 100g of mittlefruh then put into the cube to chill overnight. I did not do a separate boil as i bought some pre isomerised hop extract. Will add it at the end of fermentation. Wort smelled lovely. Was an easy brew day. I really cant wait to try this.

 

[Miraculix]

Beer has now been fermenting 36 hours at 18c. Same as your recipe but i added 10% wheat and adjusted the water amounts for my setup. I over sparged and ended up with 25l of 1044 wort. That's good enough for me. I held it at 75c for 20 mins with 100g of mittlefruh then put into the cube to chill overnight. I did not do a separate boil as i bought some pre isomerised hop extract. Will add it at the end of fermentation. Wort smelled lovely. Was an easy brew day. I really cant wait to try this.

That is an interesting approach with the extract. Let us know how it turns out!