The great E. coli debate

[C2H5OH]

Agreed, you won't find morbidity reports on homebrew. Do you think that a coroner's report would list beer or homebrew as a causative agent? That's like the coroner writing the cause of death was ice when a car skids in a motor vehicle accident.

 

[Revvy]

Oh god, first it was adding boiling wort directly to a glass carboy, now it is needless fear mongering about e-choli in brewing.

Ok for the sake of all the noobs on here, who are terrified that one wrong look at their fermenter and it is going to turn poisonous and kill them,

Get it straight people, no known pathogens can grow in your beer....nothing in your beer can kill you. Or make you sick!!!!!


In fact it was because water was often dangerous to drink that brewing became popular to begin with, because the brewing process killed most pathogens including e-coli

That's why the even brewed table beers, the third runnings from a partigyle session so that the children could have a drink that was safe to consume....

I came across this from a pretty well known and award winning homebrewer railing against a fellow brewer (it was on one of those "color coded" brewboards where they are a little less friendly than we are.) I just cut and pasted it and stuck it in a file...here it is.

Can you get a PATHOGEN from beer. No. NO *NO* Did I make that clear? You have a ZERO chance of pathogens in beer, wine, distilled beverages. PERIOD!

Pathogens are described as organisms that are harmful and potentially life threatening to humans. These are some 1400+ known species overall encompasing viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and helminths. Of that group, we are only interested in those that can be foodborne. Quite simply, if it can't survive in food, it isn't in beer. That knocks out all but bacteria and fungi. Viruses need very specific circumstances to be passed around... like on the lip of a glass or bottle, not the beer in it. **Ahhh...CHOOO!**

Pathogens as a rule are very fastidious beasts. Meaning that they want very specific temperatures, acidity, nutrients and other conditions to thrive.

Bacteria that *could* live in wort, cannot survive even a little bit of fermentation. There are several reasons for this. One is in the 'magic' of hops. It is the isomerized alpha acids that provide a preservative effect to the beer, which happens to inhibit pathogens! Good deal for fresh wort!

Another reason is the drop in pH from fermentation. Next, yeast emit their own enzymes and byproducts, all in an effort to make the environment hostile to other creatures. The major one is alcohol, of course, but their enzymes will break down less vigorous organisms and they become sources of trace nutrition. Now the latter is very minor compared to the effect of alcohol, but it exists! Most of the time these enzymes work on the wort, not organisms until late in the process. Good deal for beer! ...uh, wine too.

Oh, Botulism specifically... did you know that this is an anaerobic pathogen? It's toxin is one of the few that is broken down by boiling. Did you know tht it is strongly inhibited by isomerized alpha acids, even in water? Since fresh wort has a healthy amount of oxygen in it, the beastie cannot even get started, then once the O2 is used up, it doesn't have a chance against the hops or the yeast.

All that is left are a handful of acid producing bacteria that'll ruin a batch of beer. Overall, there are less than 200 organisms that can survive in beer and lend flavor effects. None of these for very long, or very often. Lambic being the sole exception, and if pathogens *could* survive, that'd be the style where you find 'em.

Engrave this in your mind, and tell your fellow homebrewing buddies to ignore idiocy like this thread....If something toxic could come from our homebrewing, it wouldn't be a legal hobby!!!!!

 

[C2H5OH]

Rev, your opinion is your right. If I'm wrong, start preaching that people don't need to sanitize their bottles or kegs anymore.

Homebrewing, when properly executed, is as safe(or safer) than cooking, but we all know people become ill from improperly prepared food daily. Not fear-mongering, just offering the truth.

PS: Stay tuned for the 'boiling wort' video.

 

[Revvy]

Rev, your opinion is your right. If I'm wrong, start preaching that people don't need to sanitize their bottles or kegs anymore.

Sanitization is about making sure your beer doesn't get soured, doesn't develop aecetobactor or Lactobasicilus which make your beer undrinkable, NOT PATHOGENIC......NOT POISONOUS, NOT E-COLI INFESTED....The very act of fermentation, of boiling water, of adding hops which are an antiseptic, and the change in PH from fermentation, insures nothing pathogenic can grow in beer.

It's important to remember that one of the reasons we have beer today (one of the oldest beverages in existence) is because it was made to be drunk in places where drinking the WATER was deadly, where there was e-coli....By boiling the wort, adding hops (which is an antiseptic), changing the ph, and pitching yeast, you killed of any microorganism that good be harmful.....in fact the third runnings of the brewing process was fermented at an extremely low gravit 1-2% ABV, and it was called "table beer" or "Kid's Beer" this is the stuff that people drank with meals...it was their water replacement, like Iced tea or soda pop...because again the fermentation process insured thatit was safer than the water.

So even a beer that may taste and smell like a$$ is NOT going to be harmful if consumed.


Oh by the way, the only correlation between Beer and E-coli, has been connected to playing beer pong.....

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1001568/beer_pong_a_threat_to_your_health_.html?cat=25

 

[v2comp]

C2H50H
I think you should just offer $10,000 to the first homebrewer that can brew a batch of beer with an E. coli infection without intentially trying to infect it with E. Coli. the first one that does come up with one gets all the money. consider it your very own X prize for beer.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

C2H5OH, what exactly is your agenda? You have yet to provide any solid facts to support what is becoming an increasingly shaky hypothesis. No one suggested that sanitation is not important. They are simply refuting some of your argument, which you have yet to successfully defend.

Everyone, stop using giant bold text. It doesn't help.

 

[McKBrew]

Wait, this is the same guy that posted the heating a glass carboy thread? How in the hell can you go on and on advocating that something like that is safe and then try to get people all worked up in a tizzy over bacteria in beer?

I guarantee you that a new brewer is FAR MORE LIKELY to be seriously injured by your glass carboy trick than by dying from bacteria in beer.

Sure, we can all agree that the beer fermenting in the bathroom is fricken disgusting, but the dude making it probably has been doing it for years.

I also think that all Budweiser, Ommegang Chocolate Indulgence and some other bad beers must be infected with e-coli because they all taste crappy.

 

[Revvy]

I also think that all Budweiser, Ommegang Chocolate Indulgence and some other bad beers must be infected with e-coli because they all taste crappy.

*ahem* I beg to differ...methinks a little bit of a$$ might IMPROVE the flavor.

 

[C2H5OH]

C2H5OH, what exactly is your agenda?

No agenda. Just a fellow brewer looking out for another.

In life, there are many highly unlikely events. Finding bacteria in your beer may be one of them. Winning the lottery may be another. Which do you think is more likely, bacteria ending in a beverage that ends up making someone sick, or you or I winning the lottery? Either way, it would be a life changing moment.

When people state bacteria can't grow in beer, that's when I get concerned.

 

[Yooper]

I don't think that anybody stated that bacteria can not grow in wort. I've had a lacto infection myself. However, it didn't kill me.

note to self- don't do a beer swap with people who **** in their beer.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

My mistake. I thought perhaps the discussion could be continued in a civil manner.