Temperature Controlled Burners, Brutus, Banjo BG14, Piloted Honeywell Valve Questions

[HI_SALENITY]

I do have a 30 psi regulator is this my problem?
If so what regulator do you recommend ?

 

[HI_SALENITY]

Dam I was wanting to brew on this thing "automated" this weekend but now it looks like I'll have to order a low pressure regulator from somewhere?

So do I just need to drill out the burner orifices or can you buy a low pressure "jet" for the Banjos?

I have gathered some people drill them out , can you give me a bit size to start with?

I can't believe I didn't pick up on needing the low pressure conversion .

 

[kladue]

For the regulator, check with a RV supplier for a Marshall 299 2 stage regulator or equivalent, for the burner gas fitting a 3/32" drill bit will do the trick. The automatic gas valves are built to stay closed above .5 psi to keep things from blowing up if the main regulator fails.

 

[jlandin]

I have gathered some people drill them out , can you give me a bit size to start with?

You can also check my build thread for some details on this (linked in my signature).

--
Josh

 

[HI_SALENITY]

Cool I got mine up and running!

The flame is a bit week but it has fire

 

[kladue]

There is an internal pressure regulator in each valve, I hope you have the stronger spring installed for propane pressure. You can adjust the flame level with a screwdriver after you remove cap, open any down stream valve wide open and then tune for maximum fire you want and replace cover on valve.

 

[HI_SALENITY]

There is an internal pressure regulator in each valve, I hope you have the stronger spring installed for propane pressure. You can adjust the flame level with a screwdriver after you remove cap, open any down stream valve wide open and then tune for maximum fire you want and replace cover on valve.

Yea I converted it to Propane and the internal regulator is screwed all the way in.

All of my gas lines are 3/8'' or 1/2'' id

I'll play with it later and maybe post some pics to see if anyone can see a problem.

 

[kladue]

Are the gas fitting jets drilled to 3/32", maximum size would be 7/64" if 3/32" does not give enough flame.

 

[HI_SALENITY]

Are the gas fitting jets drilled to 3/32", maximum size would be 7/64" if 3/32" does not give enough flame.

They are 3/32



I got to brew on mine today ! :rockin:

The flame was fine it just wasn't what it was on HP. The next batch will be 10g so we will see how it does with that .

The only problem I had was the temp wasn't calibrated right so I had to compensate about 10*. I need to get that PITA manual out and figure out how to calibrate it.

Other than that this things WAY COOL!!!

 

[kladue]

Are the air shutter disks all the way open?, another suggestion is to close them until the tips of the flames just start to turn yellow, that is the point of maximum heat. The yellow tip flames are the point where the least amount of gasses are being made with complete combustion and the maximum amount of heat stays under the keg skirt. A couple 1-1/4" - 1-1/2" holes in the keg skirt on the back side will make a big difference also, the burners will be happier and the flame will run across keg bottom, not out from under keg skirt.

 

[HI_SALENITY]

Anyone want to walk me through the temperature calibration for these controllers ? I can't find my instructions.

 

[CrowbarKarl]

Just a followup.. I got the HOA switches wired in and everything is working great. The center "Off" position kills the solenoid valve power, the top "Auto" position allows the PID to control the solenoid valve, and the bottom "Fire" position sends power directly to the solenoid valve to open (ignoring the PID).

Here's the control panel:

Testing with the RTD tees (Lonnie Mac style):

The RTD inputs and valve power outputs (24V):

Power in:

Pump power out without the covers (I'm planning to swap these out with the female version anyway, for safety's sake):

The control panel wiring. The box I used has a clear back, so this is looking in the back of it:

From left to right:
- 2 x output power modules 110V (pumps)
- 110V Terminating block (top)
- 110V to 24V Transformer, 40VA (middle)
- 24V Terminating block (bottom)
- 2 x SYL-2362 PIDs from Auber (in on/off mode)
- Input power module 110V (fused).
- The HOA switches are on either side of the transformer.

--
Josh

I like the power modules. Where did you get those from? I have a similar build. Nice job!

 

[jlandin]

I like the power modules. Where did you get those from? I have a similar build. Nice job!

Those I got from a local electronics store. You can get them online at Jameco, and other places. Female connectors like this one are nice for your output to the pumps (since those are live):

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_1954640_-1?CID=PDF

Mine are filtered, but that is not required. You want to use a Male connector for the Power-IN, since the cord itself is live.

They have a whole page of them here:

http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/catalogs/c103/p134.pdf

And the cords to go with them are here:

http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/catalogs/c103/p133.pdf

Most of the catalog items are clickable to the product pages. Post some pics of your control panel!

--
Josh

 

[jlandin]

Anyone want to walk me through the temperature calibration for these controllers ? I can't find my instructions.

Hmm... they should be calibrated already. Are you sure your RTD connections are ok?

The instruction manual is here:

http://auberins.com/images/Manual/SYL-2362%20instruction%201.6.pdf

--
Josh

 

[HI_SALENITY]

Hmm... they should be calibrated already. Are you sure your RTD connections are ok?

The instruction manual is here:

http://auberins.com/images/Manual/SYL-2362%20instruction%201.6.pdf

--
Josh

I got it calibrated in . I called auber and they told me to turn them on for at least 20-40 min to warm up before I adjusted them.

BTW I dont have a RTD mine is a K

 

[CrowbarKarl]

Hmm... they should be calibrated already. Are you sure your RTD connections are ok?

The instruction manual is here:

http://auberins.com/images/Manual/SYL-2362%20instruction%201.6.pdf

--
Josh

Josh,

I have a rig similar to yours. How do you have yours programmed? Do you do the Autotune and let the valves cycle on and off to keep it at the set value (SV) or do you have the control mode set to on/off control (At = 0) and let the temp drop below a certain number of degrees (SV-Hy setting) and then kick on the valve and shut off when it reaches a certain temp above the set value (SV+Hy)? I have the same Honeywell valves and worry about them getting killed by continuously cycling on and off in the Auto mode (At=3).

Let me know your thoughts and the results you are getting from your rig. I apprediate it!

 

[jlandin]

How do you have yours programmed? Do you do the Autotune and let the valves cycle on and off to keep it at the set value (SV) or do you have the control mode set to on/off control (At = 0) and let the temp drop below a certain number of degrees (SV-Hy setting) and then kick on the valve and shut off when it reaches a certain temp above the set value (SV+Hy)? I have the same Honeywell valves and worry about them getting killed by continuously cycling on and off in the Auto mode (At=3).

I'm sorry I don't know what the "At" parameter is that you mentioned.

I do have OutY set to 4 which uses J2 as On/off control relay contactor output. I have the Hysteresis set for 2 degrees.

The auto-tune feature is interesting, now that I look at it, but I can see your concern with wearing out the honeywells in PID mode (Outy=2). I'd be curious to see what PID parameter values (P, i, d, SouF, ot) the auto-tune comes up with for this application (mashing, for example). If it seemed like a tolerable pulse frequency for the honeywells, I might switch to that method actually.

--
Josh

 

[CrowbarKarl]

I'm sorry I don't know what the "At" parameter is that you mentioned.

I do have OutY set to 4 which uses J2 as On/off control relay contactor output. I have the Hysteresis set for 2 degrees.

The auto-tune feature is interesting, now that I look at it, but I can see your concern with wearing out the honeywells in PID mode (Outy=2). I'd be curious to see what PID parameter values (P, i, d, SouF, ot) the auto-tune comes up with for this application (mashing, for example). If it seemed like a tolerable pulse frequency for the honeywells, I might switch to that method actually.

--
Josh

Actually that I look back. You have the SYL-2362 controller and I have the 2342. The parameters are a little different. When my rig is completely up and running, I might try the "Auto-tune" and see how it works. I'm just not sure a furnace valve is up to being opened and closed every 60 seconds or whatever it comes up with. On the flip side, it would help keep a consistent temp and probably be more efficient with using the propane.

I've used Love controllers but have no experience with the Auber's.

Karl

 

[Sawdustguy]

Anyone want to walk me through the temperature calibration for these controllers ? I can't find my instructions.

There is no calibration per se. You can make adjustmenys to the PID parameters. Is that what you mean?

 

[HI_SALENITY]

There is no calibration per se. You can make adjustmenys to the PID parameters. Is that what you mean?

You can call it "adjusting the paramiters". If it was in say 150* water it showed 156* so I called it re calibration.

 

[Steelers77]

I'm in the planning stages of my brutus build and I was just wondering (I think it is) if these are a complete replacement for the ASCO valves and not a redundant backup? I ask this because I was reading a post the other day and he used these in line with the ASCO valves.

Thanks

 

[kladue]

The honeywell valves do not need an ASCO solenoid valve installed after the furnace valve as it opens and closes when powered. If you use a self powered BASO H19 pilot safety valve then the ASCO valve is needed for gas flow control to burner. It is easier to use the honeywell VR8200 valve than the self powered valve route, and much cheaper, typically $85 for valve, pilot, and thermocouple.

 

[Steelers77]

Thanks Kladue. So one other question, Should I get a PID with an SSR or a relay? I assume a relay since I do not need rapid/constant switching. IE. electric rims tube.

Do you have a diagram for this setup?

 

[Sawdustguy]

Thanks Kladue. So one other question, Should I get a PID with an SSR or a relay? I assume a relay since I do not need rapid/constant switching. IE. electric rims tube.

Do you have a diagram for this setup?

If you are simply switching the 24 VAC to the Honeywell Gas Valve the PID with the relay will be fine.

 

[Steelers77]

Sawdust,
I was looking at this post where you drew a schematic for another member:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/wiring-auber-pids-brutus-build-123326

It looks like just the solenoid valve is run by the PID. Could I run the output of terminal 5 to a distribution block and from there run one line to the March pump and the other to a 24v transformer? This way (I assume) you can kick on the pump and the burner at the same time. Or is it recommended to run the pump continuously?

 

[Sawdustguy]

Sawdust,
I was looking at this post where you drew a schematic for another member:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/wiring-auber-pids-brutus-build-123326

It looks like just the solenoid valve is run by the PID. Could I run the output of terminal 5 to a distribution block and from there run one line to the March pump and the other to a 24v transformer? This way (I assume) you can kick on the pump and the burner at the same time. Or is it recommended to run the pump continuously?

Yes you can.

 

[Steelers77]

Awesome, so do you continually run your pump?

Sawdust, why did you go with the RIMS tube and not a direct fired system? Just wondering what the advantages of one method vs the other is. I originally was going with a RIMS tube but then decided to go down this path with the automated burners. I'm sure I'll get this thing running then want to switch again.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Awesome, so do you continually run your pump?

Sawdust, why did you go with the RIMS tube and not a direct fired system? Just wondering what the advantages of one method vs the other is. I originally was going with a RIMS tube but then decided to go down this path with the automated burners. I'm sure I'll get this thing running then want to switch again.

I recirculate until I sparge. I automated my HLT and BK.

 

[atoyot]

So, do you need a Honeywell ignition unit, i.e., P/N S8610U to make the VR8200 work or is a PID all that's necessary?

 

[ClaudiusB]

So, do you need a Honeywell ignition unit, i.e., P/N S8610U to make the VR8200 work or is a PID all that's necessary?

PID or any other control device (Love, PLC, switch) is all you need, VR8200 is a standing pilot unit.

The S8610U is used with an intermittent pilot unit, VR8204
The VR8204 has a pilot valve and a main valve control voltage input, three wire system.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB