Tart of Darkness

[The_Nid_Hog]

I just finished brewing it today. Pitched Roeselare and the dregs from a bottle of ToD. Now to wait for a year and a half to crawl by!

 

[microbusbrewery]

... and we'll be filling our barrel in a couple weeks. Then the exercise in patience begins.

Filled the barrel this past weekend. 55-ish gallons of what will hopefully develop into sour beer goodness.

 

[javaguru]

Anyone bottle this yet? I have been thinking about using the Belgian style ones with a cork. Wondering if that's overkill? Should I worry about bottle bombs if I don't use them? Though, since this has been sitting in the secondary for nearly a year, no reason to go cheap with regular bottles I guess.

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

Since I just brewed this over the weekend, I'm a long way off from bottling. However, I've been filling up boxes with empty bottles for just that purpose and I'm planning to start corking whatever comes out of my sour pipeline when I get to that point. On the other hand, the Bruery certainly doesn't cork Tart of Darkness so, assuming your FG is low, you shouldn't have any problems if you cap them. Many of my sour brewing buddies do just that.

 

[joshrosborne]

I brewed this 8 months or so ago and it seems to be stuck at 1.01. I added some Jolly Pumpkin dregs about 3-4 months ago and while it grew a monster pellicle afterwards, the gravity hasn't really come down recently. I checked a month or so ago and then again a couple days ago and it hasn't budged.

 

[cheyneyr]

I finally got around to bottling my ToD clone this weekend (brewed it last November). It's smelling and tasting awesome!

Any guesses or experience on how long it will take for this to bottle condition? This is my first go with Roeselare.

 

[microbusbrewery]

I finally got around to bottling my ToD clone this weekend (brewed it last November). It's smelling and tasting awesome! Any guesses or experience on how long it will take for this to bottle condition? This is my first go with Roeselare.

If you didn't re-yeast it will probably take a while. After a year the sach strain in the blend won't really be viable; you'll be relying primarily on the brett which tends to carb slower. My best guess is 6-8 weeks minimum.

 

[fxdude]

I bottled mine in regular bottles. I was a little nervous about this so I kept the carbonation to about 2.5 volumes which was slightly lower than I wanted but what most said regular bottles could handle. The bottles have gone through temp swings and seem to be hanging in there.

 

[joshrosborne]

I bottled mine in regular bottles. I was a little nervous about this so I kept the carbonation to about 2.5 volumes which was slightly lower than I wanted but what most said regular bottles could handle. The bottles have gone through temp swings and seem to be hanging in there.

What was your FG? Mine is stuck at 1.01 after 8 months, which seems high.

 

[fxdude]

1.010 which I believe is about right

 

[joshrosborne]

1.010 which I believe is about right

Awesome, that's what I like to hear. Hopefully it will be good at that FG and I won't have to worry about any exploding bottles.

 

[fxdude]

I force carbonated in a keg then bottled from there so I'm not sure about bottle carbonating. 1.010 is fairly low and dry. I'm guessing after all of that aging time there shouldn't be many fermentable sugars left but I'd be nervous trying to nail a high carbonation level in normal bottles by bottle conditioning .

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

I shouldn't keep checking this thread. I've been sitting here, daydreaming about pellicles and corking bottles, until I reminded myself that I just brewed it two weeks ago. Time to take a deep breath!

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

I was away for the weekend and when I got back, I found a pellicle forming on my Tart of Darkness clone. This is the first sour that I've brewed and I'm pretty excited. My wife and kids were horrified, but I feel like a proud father!

 

[Jipper]

Isn't that a great feeling?! I remember my first pellicle...watching it grow up to be a respectable young sour, then maturing into a bold, tart flemmish red! Be proud Nid Hog!

 

[Scutrbrau]

Still no pellicle on mine after four weeks. Patience, grasshopper.

 

[aaronmrose]

This thread is great. I'm looking to brew my first sour and was really leaning towards a stout because I LOVE this beer.

My question - I only have one primary 6.5 gal glass carboy, but several 5-gal secondaries (glass/Better Bottle). Would transferring this beer after 3-4 weeks hurt the souring process by removing too much yeast? As a twist, I'm thinking about racking onto cherries when I transfer. Thoughts?

 

[fxdude]

I'm pretty sure it will hurt the souring process a little bit, just make sure you suck up as much of the yeast as possible when you transfer it. I love the idea of aging it on cherries but you may want to wait until it's aged a little longer.

 

[fxdude]

Maybe put the cherries in when you add the oak cubes

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

Would transferring this beer after 3-4 weeks hurt the souring process by removing too much yeast?

Nope.

As a twist, I'm thinking about racking onto cherries when I transfer. Thoughts?

3 months before bottling is pretty standard.

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

As a twist, I'm thinking about racking onto cherries when I transfer. Thoughts?

I had heard that The Bruery does a draft version like this, so I emailed Tyler King and asked him about it. He suggested that a month out from packaging, I add 400g of tart cherry puree per 1 liter. That's about 16.7 lbs for a 5 gallon batch if my math is right.

 

[cattailsforlunch]

Hey guys, I need help here. I brewed ToD kit on Dec 21, 2013. I read the review and some comments on MoreBeer website and after consideration, I transferred it to secondary last night. Did I make a mistake? I may be misunderstanding but it seems that some of you on here are either not moving it to secondary or you are moving the yeast along with the beer to secondary?

Also, the gravity seems to be stuck around 1.015 Is that ok?

 

[microbusbrewery]

IMO, you don't need to rack to secondary, but I don't think it's a big problem if you do. I've left other sours in primary on Roeselare for well over a year with no issues.

Re gravity, I usually see a fairly active fermentation for about a week, then a lull for about a week, then fairly active for another week before it (Roeselare) slows down for the long haul. The gravity will continue to slowly drop over the next 6-12 months, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

[aaronmrose]

Thanks for the comments guys - I think I have a plan now:

- Ferment in 6.5 gallon glass primary for ~ 6 months, without transfer (I can use my bottling bucket for other brews, or buy another)
- Transfer to secondary on top of 5-6 lbs of sour/tart cherries and add oak chips
- Bottle after another 4-6 months, depending on taste.

Nid_Hog's comment on The Bruery's amount of cherries is amazing. That's a lot! I think for my first effort, I want to keep the fruit as more of an aside than an upfront taste.

Does this plan make sense?

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

I was surprised at the amount of cherries too, but I did a little google research about it. It turns out that this isn't that unusual a ratio for lambics--I've found a bunch of references to it. I'm kind of tempted to try it that way, but I don't know if I have anything that could handle the volume (I'd have to ferment it out in my washing machine). Plus 17 lbs of cherry puree will be pretty expensive. I'm leaning toward three or four pounds of dried cherries, but I might just man up and go with the full recommended amount of puree.

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

I was surprised at the amount of cherries too, but I did a little google research about it. It turns out that this isn't that unusual a ratio for lambics--I've found a bunch of references to it. I'm kind of tempted to try it that way, but I don't know if I have anything that could handle the volume (I'd have to ferment it out in my washing machine). Plus 17 lbs of cherry puree will be pretty expensive. I'm leaning toward three or four pounds of dried cherries, but I might just man up and go with the full recommended amount of puree.

Nearly all dried cherries on the market are coated with oil, so watch out for that. I'd go with the cherry puree. The shorter contact time makes sense for the puree also.

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

Nearly all dried cherries on the market are coated with oil, so watch out for that. I'd go with the cherry puree. The shorter contact time makes sense for the puree also.

I agree that the oil on dried cherries is a consideration. On the other hand, Vinnie at Russian River has said that the dried cherries that they use in Supplication have been oiled too, and they don't have any noticeable problems with them. I think I would be inclined to just go for it.

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

I agree that the oil on dried cherries is a consideration. On the other hand, Vinnie at Russian River has said that the dried cherries that they use in Supplication have been oiled too, and they don't have any noticeable problems with them. I think I would be inclined to just go for it.

That's interesting... my recollection is they go out of their way to source dried cherries without oil. If you do give it a shot, please report back on the results.

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

That's interesting... my recollection is they go out of their way to source dried cherries without oil. If you do give it a shot, please report back on the results.

I had emailed Vinnie a while ago about this, so I just went back and checked to see what exactly he wrote. My last post was a little off. Up until now, RR has been using dried cherries that are lightly oiled with sunflower oil. Because he's concerned that this hurts head retention, they have just sourced bulk dried cherries that aren't oiled. That message is three or four months old, so he probably has the new cherries somewhere in production now.

That having been said, I am inclined to go with the commercially available dried cherries. I haven't seen any locally that aren't "lightly oiled." I also emailed a bunch of on-line sources a couple of months ago and got negative responses about unoiled ones--maybe because last year was a bad year for cherries and stocks were generally low? It's a simple matter for me to buy what I need at my local Trader Joe's, so I will probably try that for the ToD that I have going now. Unless I give in and go with a puree.

It's going to be a while before my ToD is at the point were I'm ready to add fruit, but I'll definitely report back when I have some tangible results.

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

Sounds about right. I think of the old oil from the nose trick to take down the head. No faster way to ruin a beer...

Cherries will continue to dry without oil, so as a practical matter they'll do it to retain moisture as they sell by weight. Don't think you'll find an exception to that. 2013 was a great year for cherries, at least in MI, but the crops were devastated in 2012.