Tart of Darkness

[fxdude]

I agree about enjoying every ounce of Black Tuesday, I was trying to decide how much to use, I want to use 8-12oz but would probably only end up using just enough to cover the oak.

I believe you are correct about them using the bourbon barrels for one batch of Black Tuesday then filling it back up with Tart of Darkness

Definitely would sanitize a jar first then soak them covered.

Thanks again for the info, I'll make sure to come back in six to ten months to report my results.

 

[jtejedor]

Anyone have any results yet? I pitched ecy-20 instead of roselare and it was pretty sour after a month. After about 4 months now it is starting to develop some complexity. Still wondering about the bottle bomb thing since its only down to 1.017. Guess I can let it ride for a while.

 

[fxdude]

I just moved recently after it being in the primary for only four months, I was wanting to age it for 6-8. I decided to transfer into a keg sucking up as much of the yeast as I could and purge the O2 with CO2. I took a little taste and it was great, a little on the light side for a sour but almost there. I'm hoping to age it in the keg at least another 3-4 months on the little bit of yeast I was able to get in there. It actually tasted so good that I'm tempted to leave the oak cubes out of it. Maybe I'll split it into two kegs and throw the cubes into one of them. Didn't get enough for a gravity reading, hoping it made the move ok.

 

[Tomcat0304]

The kit does not include the yeast, but does include a 2oz package of oak "bourbon chunks."

Grain:
10 lbs American Pale
1 lb Crystal 60L
1 lb Flaked Oats
8 oz Black Roasted
6 oz Chocolate

Hops:
.5 oz Czech Saaz (60 minutes)

Also includes:
1 Whirfloc tablet
4 oz corn sugar

***edit****
The paperwork also includes the extract information which replaces the 10 lbs American Pale with 8 lbs Ultralight LME.

I'm trying to put this together in BrewSmith, and had a few questions:

1. Is the "8 oz Black Roasted" Black Patent or Black Barley?
2. What is the batch size?
3. Fermentation temp says 65-68*, is that for the whole 12 months, or can I leave it at about those temps for about 4 weeks and move to closer to 75* (to free up space in my ferm chamber)?

Cheers and many thanks!

 

[microbusbrewery]

I'm trying to put this together in BrewSmith, is the "8 oz Black Roasted" Black Patent or Black Barley?

Cheers and many thanks!

I believe it's Black Barley un-malted and heavily roasted. Black Patent is malted barley that's been heavily roasted.

 

[BootsyFlanootsy]

I made an American stout that finished to high for my liking so I am going to try Roeselare in it and see what happens.

Similarly, I brewed a foreign export stout based on a recipe from Ron Pattinson's site. It stalled around 1.020 for some reason, and then picked upa brett infection. I added WLP665 to it and other than adding sour dregs over time, I just let it alone for 10 months.

In July I decided to rack it onto 12#'s of tart cherries that looked to good to resist. The sample at that time tasted phenomenal. Sort of like a flanders with a touch of chocolate and coffee.

Can't wait to see what the cherries add to that equation.

 

[Tomcat0304]

I got this started yesterday and have a question:

I started late and was pretty worn out by the end of the brew day. So instead of letting the break material, et al, settle to the bottom of the kettle, it all went into the fermenter. Will having done this hurt the final product after sitting on it for a year or so?

I was also a few gravity points low on my original gravity, but I\'m not really concerned about that.

Thanks!

 

[smokinghole]

Here's a dirty little secret. Breweries transfer some break material too as well as hop material and even *gasp* hop seeds. In most cases, with a conical, they might dump the crap off in a day or two just to get the gunk out, and sometimes it stays until they start dumping yeast. Plus if its break from chilling it ALL goes into the fermentor since in most cases (pretty much all but I'm sure there are some small nano like places that chill and whirlpool or something and would make me a liar) they chill on the way to fermentor. So don't worry.

 

[watsonian]

for those searching in the future, i found the morebeer kit recipe on brewtoad

http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/tart-of-darkness-sour-stout-clone

 

[fxdude]

Wow, here we are over nine months after brewing this beer and moving places right in between. Like I mentioned in a previous post when I moved I had to move the beer from the primary glass carboy to a keg blanketed with CO2. I tried to suck up as much of the yeast as I could but left at least 1/3-1/2 of it behind. It sat in the primary for around 3-4 months, then another 4-5 months in the keg for a total of 8 months.

The taste was great, I could taste the tart of darkness in it but it was probably 20-30% of the tartness, it was way too light. Pulling it off that primary yeast definitely affected the sourness. I threw the pack of oak in and left it for 4 1/2 weeks. I racked it to a second keg to get it off the leftover yeast and the oak. The flavor really improved quite a bit, the oak added another layer of depth to the flavor that brought it even closer to tart of darkness other than it lacking sourness. The oak comes through just a touch heavy at the end but I'm guessing that's due to lack of sour to balance it out.

I'm thinking about adding a little lactic acid to it to try and sour it up a little more but I've never done this before. I'm very nervous to do this to a beer I've been aging for nearly 10 months now. It's very drinkable but is almost too drinkable for a sour, you could really chug this thing. I'm force carbing right now so taking that a little higher will help with the mouth feel.

Will update on how the lactic acid test goes.

 

[Jipper]

Could always measure out a very small amount of lactic acid and beer, see if you like the effect, and then scale up if you do? Might be a better route than just adding acid to the keg and potentially adding too much - just a thought! Either way let us know how it goes.

Cheers!

 

[Randy_Bugger]

I tried adding lactic acid to a tart fruit beer once. I added 15ml to six gallons of beer. Yes, it added some noticeable sourness and acidity, but I can't say it makes a good substitute for lactic acid fermentation with respect to flavor. I don't think I'll ever try that again.

 

[fxdude]

I think I'm going to try what Matt suggested. Might pull out three pints and add different amounts of lactic acid to each one, have a couple friends over that know sours to help try and determine the amount that tastes best to all of us.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

I added the lactic acid in 5ml increments to the entire batch and sampled it each time. I had the right amount, but didn't like what it did to the flavor of the beer.

Vinny C doesn't recommend adding lactic acid to a sour beer that isn't sour enough. This is something I learned after I tried it. In his words, it makes it taste medicinal. If I knew this, I probably would have tried it anyway.

 

[javaguru]

I brewed this last Dec and finally got around to sampling it. It tastes great! Still on the fence about adding the oak or not (leaning to not). Also, I want to bottle this but not sure if the yeast is still viable (been nearly 10 months) enough or will I have to add new yeast for the priming sugar. Anyone have any thoughts on adding new yeast?

 

[fxdude]

I was also on the fence about adding the oak, glad I did, it doesn't over power the flavor at all, it really compliments it. I was actually only intending on leaving the oak in for a few weeks but work got busy and I left it for over four and it was still fine.

 

[Jipper]

I brewed this last Dec and finally got around to sampling it. It tastes great! Still on the fence about adding the oak or not (leaning to not). Also, I want to bottle this but not sure if the yeast is still viable (been nearly 10 months) enough or will I have to add new yeast for the priming sugar. Anyone have any thoughts on adding new yeast?

I might try adding new yeast personally. Might try using a wine yeast, as the pH might be pretty low, making it tough for a lot of beer yeast strains to survive / do their job. Good luck, and glad it's tasting great so far!

 

[javaguru]

I was also on the fence about adding the oak, glad I did, it doesn't over power the flavor at all, it really compliments it. I was actually only intending on leaving the oak in for a few weeks but work got busy and I left it for over four and it was still fine.

Thanks, that's good to know. Maybe I chance it. I was just afraid of mucking up something that has taken this long. Ha, probably a common fear for first time sour brewers like myself.

 

[javaguru]

I might try adding new yeast personally. Might try using a wine yeast, as the pH might be pretty low, making it tough for a lot of beer yeast strains to survive / do their job. Good luck, and glad it's tasting great so far!

Thanks! Yeah, saw on older post about using Rockpile...will give it a shot!

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

Vinnie uses Rockpile, so that would be a fine choice. I like to use Champagne yeast (EC-1118/Premier Cuvée) because of its tolerance to alcohol, pH, temp, etc. Very robust and readily available. Rockpile I've had to order, and found no difference in the end product.

 

[Tomcat0304]

Brewed this on 9/2/13 at 66* in temp controlled freezer. Moved to the back of my closet on 9/22/13 (temp has been a steady 75* inside). Just the other day the airlock started to bubble again every few seconds and is still going.

I'm not worried (pretty sure it's infected ) just wondering what might be the cause...

Cheers all!

 

[microbusbrewery]

Brewed this on 9/2/13 at 66* in temp controlled freezer. Moved to the back of my closet on 9/22/13 (temp has been a steady 75* inside). Just the other day the airlock started to bubble again every few seconds and is still going. I'm not worried (pretty sure it's infected ) just wondering what might be the cause... Cheers all!

Did you pitch Roeselare? Assuming so, based on my experience with Roeselare that's pretty typical. The yeasts and the bugs in the blend become more active at different stages. I usually have a very active primary followed by a bit of a lull, then it starts back up again

 

[Tomcat0304]

Did you pitch Roeselare? Assuming so, based on my experience with Roeselare that's pretty typical. The yeasts and the bugs in the blend become more active at different stages. I usually have a very active primary followed by a bit of a lull, then it starts back up again

Oh yes, definitely pitched Roeselare! Again, not worried, just excited!

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

I'm getting ready to brew the all grain version this weekend. I'm planning to add dried sour cherries and maybe some dried Italian plums to it too.

 

[gmr]

I have a batch at around a year. Spent the entire time in a better bottle. It smells amazing - lots of dark cherry notes, but only has the sour level of something like an Petrus Oud Bruin. It's also quite dry, so I wonder if there's much left for the bugs to chew on. I'm thinking I might add some blackberries, as I have a big bag in the freezer.

 

[cheyneyr]

The oak chips were included in the kit I bought last year.

I brewed it last November and added the oak back in late May. A few weeks ago I moved it to secondary and I think I will bottle it soon. When I added the oak chips I took a taste and it was a bit acidic and maybe vinegary, but it was delicious a few weeks ago when I checked it. I'm really looking forward to this. I happened across a bottle of Tart of Darkness in Chicago a month or so ago at a Binny's, so I bought that bad boy and now I have something to compare it to.

 

[fxdude]

I ended up adding a small bottle of lactic acid to mine. It brought the sourness up to a nicer level but is definitely a different kind of sour when doing a side by side with Tart of Darkness. The Tart of Darkness is a much more earthy kind of sour where as the lactic acid is a bit sharper. I shared it with my local homebrew club and only a few picked out that it had lactic acid, guessing the others just didn't know the lactic acid taste as well.

Submitted it to our internal club homebrew contest. The main note that was consistent between the judges is that the flavor was a little thin/flat. They wanted more flavor from the malt to back up the sourness. I'd say I have to agree. If I was to do this again I'd up the malt bill. I may also ferment at a much higher temp to try and get more of the natural sourness from the yeast.

Overall those I shared it with at our club have enjoyed it and I'm happy enough with it for my first sour but I've been calling it a session sour stout.

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

The oak chips were included in the kit I bought last year.

I know that Morebeer puts oak in with their Consecration kit that comes from old barrels at Russian River. Are these supposed to be anything from the Bruery or just plain oak chips?

 

[fxdude]

They are bourbon soaked oak chips, not exactly sure where they come from but you can definitely smell the bourbon when you open the packet.

 

[microbusbrewery]

Good to hear people are happy with the results and enjoying their homebrew versions. I got to try ToD at GABF this year and loved it. I'm pretty excited because I managed to acquire a used barrel from one of our local breweries so we're doing a ToD club barrel project. My contribution has been sitting in primary since the end of September and we'll be filling our barrel in a couple weeks. Then the exercise in patience begins.