Tart of Darkness

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dshay

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I just recently had a bottle of Tart of Darkness from the Bruery, and was woundering if anyone has ever made a clone of it.

If so, what was your process and did it turn out?

Thanks for the help,

Dakota :mug:
 

Oldsock

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The only oddball thing I heard about this beer was that they did a double concentration boil and then diluted, so they could fill twice as many barrels. It was aged in bourbon barrels that had previously aged their big/clean beers, which softens their character. It is pitched with a full complement of their bacteria and Brett. No specifics on the grain bill, but I find that to be one of the least important factors in brewing a sour.

This recipe is a bit stronger, but I actually thought the end result had a fair amount in common with Tart of Darkness: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/03/sour-bourbon-barrel-porter.html
 

Option

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Morebeer just released a kit for Tart of Darkness. I would love to get a recipe for it and give it a try but they dont put it on the site like say, northerbrewer does. I assume they have to include one in the kit right? I guess someone will just have to buy it and give it a try.

It does give these details...

The Bruery's suggested brewing/fermentation schedule:
-Mash between 156F - 158F
-Ferment with Wyeast Roeselare Blend (WY3763)

Estimated Original Gravity: 1.053 - 1.058
Estimated SRM: 36-38
Estimated ABV: 5.6%
Suggested Fermentation Temperature: 65F - 68F (With Wyeast Roeselare - WY3763)

Link to the morebeer site - http://morebeer.com/view_product/27709//Kit_All-Grain_-_The_Bruerys_Tart_of_Darkness_
 

humann_brewing

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They do say it is a stout that is soured and the kit includes Roeselare so I would go out on a limb and guess the base beer could be a sweet stout, especially since they say to mash high and then use Roeselare instead of a saac yeast.

I have a cake of Roeselare going, I might have to just wip up a simple sweet stout and let it go.
 

AmandaK

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I would be curious to learn how they did this; in my experiences, roast and sour are terrible partners.
 

TNGabe

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I think the roast has to be balanced. A really roasty base stout would probably taste like a$$ soured. Had a great sour stout from Catawba Valley a few times.
 

mors

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yeah I'm curious to see the recipe. I would just buy the kit from them except they always pre-mill all specialty grains... and that fact bugs the **** out of me.
 

BenWillcox

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Yeah If we could get a grain and hop bill on this I would love to give it a try. Perhaps if they have kits in in January I will give it a whirl.
 

humann_brewing

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So does the kit come with Roeselare? If it does, that is not too bad of a deal really.

Edit, I see they suggest Roeselare below on the page, I am guessing it doesn't come with then.
 
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D

dshay

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Forgot that I posted this post a long while ago, I am going to look into this kit for sure. Thanks for posting the information on it. If anyone brews it or if they have let us know how it goes, until I get to finally brew it.

Do you think they supply oak chips for the brew? Getting a five barrel for this would be expensive since it would be only for sours there after. Still a fun project in the works with this, time will tell with this one.

Cheers :mug:
 

badlee

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I am absolutely in love with the idea of this beer.
Would anyone who gets this kit please,please,please post the grain bill, hops and mash temps info.
Living in Thailand I can neither get the beer nor the kit.
Cheers,in hope,Lee
 

cheyneyr

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The kit does not include the yeast, but does include a 2oz package of oak "bourbon chunks."

Grain:
10 lbs American Pale
1 lb Crystal 60L
1 lb Flaked Oats
8 oz Black Roasted
6 oz Chocolate

Hops:
.5 oz Czech Saaz (60 minutes)

Also includes:
1 Whirfloc tablet
4 oz corn sugar

***edit****
The paperwork also includes the extract information which replaces the 10 lbs American Pale with 8 lbs Ultralight LME.
 

humann_brewing

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The kit does not include the yeast, but does include a 2oz package of oak "bourbon chunks."

Grain:
10 lbs American Pale
1 lb Crystal 60L
1 lb Flaked Oats
8 oz Black Roasted
6 oz Chocolate

Hops:
.5 oz Czech Saaz (60 minutes)

Also includes:
1 Whirfloc tablet
4 oz corn sugar

***edit****
The paperwork also includes the extract information which replaces the 10 lbs American Pale with 8 lbs Ultralight LME.
Yep, looks pretty much like a simple Stout or variation of multiple stouts, oatmeal mainly I suppose and keeping the hops low as bugs like lacto don't like them.

Seems like this would be an easy extract to do with all those specialties. I have some harvested roselaire waiting for something...........
 

badlee

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cheyneyr, thank you very much for that. That looks like even I could do it with my limited resources.
Cheers
 

Rob_B

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Very cool. I have a stout recipe that's very close except for the hops and instead of oats I use flaked barley. Think I'll just tweak what I've got and try this one out.

Thanks for posting the recipe!
 

cheyneyr

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what is the mash temp? 158?
The mash temp wasn't specified on the Tart of Darkness specific brewing sheet. They included a generic All Grain Brewing Instructions sheet that gave a range of 148 - 158.

I went for 156 and pretty much got it.
 

mors

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cheyneyr said:
The mash temp wasn't specified on the Tart of Darkness specific brewing sheet. They included a generic All Grain Brewing Instructions sheet that gave a range of 148 - 158.

I went for 156 and pretty much got it.
Scary LOL. Thanks for the info.
 

cheyneyr

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Do they say how long to oak it, or is it simply "to taste"? I haven't tried this beer but it sounds awesome.
It said to add the oak cubes after 6 months and leave them in 'to taste.'

I haven't had it yet, but a friend of mine just acquired a bottle of the real stuff in a trade. He said he might hold on to it until mine is ready so we can do a side by side. Not sure if he was joking or not.

Anyway, the airlock really started bubbling last night. I brewed it Saturday afternoon.
 

Jipper

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Hey All,

Sorry I'm getting to this thread late. I've updated the online documents under the product descriptions. If you click into the kit online, above the description you'll see a tab titled "Documents" - click on that and then on the Recipe Sheet link. Extract is first, all grain will need to be scrolled down to. 2oz. of bourbon oak chunks are included, and we recommend adding them after 6 months (allowing the Roeselare to get going first) - then oak to taste. Another 3-4 months should do it, but the level of oak and sourness is completely up to the brewer!

Tyler King (Senior Director of Brewing Operations for The Bruery) told me that the mash temp should be 158F. When I brewed this I went 154F for 20 minutes, then brought it to 158F for 30 more prior to mashing out and sparging. If you haven't had the beer before it's exceptional. Very well balanced, not overly roasty, and not overly sour (depending on how long you let it go I suppose!)

Hopefully this goes well for all of you and you enjoy it as much as us...cheers!
 

Brew-boy

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I made an American stout that finished to high for my liking so I am going to try Roeselare in it and see what happens.
 

CarlE

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I just picked up a couple of these kits to brew with a friend. I've got a carboy of MoreBeer's Russian River Consecration that's been going since July, and figured it would be good to have more than one sour in the pipeline since they take so long to make!

One question I had, hopefully Jipper and others can chime in: The directions aren't clear if the Roselare is for primary fermentation or to add it to secondary. It actually doesn't mention secondary at all; is the Roselare really supposed to be left in primary for 6+ months? The brief description I found on The Bruery's website suggests they brewed a base stout, then added a sour blend and aged in oak...

Any insight would be appreciated!

-Carl
 

liquiditynerd

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Sweet, I have a imperial stout second running going with some wicked Pedio and Sacc. Hopefully the Brett will show up in the mail on time. I didnt know about this recipe before hand so I am stoked!
 

Jipper

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Hi Carl,

Roeselare will be the only pitch that you make on the Tart of Darkness. The Bruery goes straight into bourbon barrels and pitches Roeselare. I don't believe they rack it out of the barrels until it's ready to bottle, so it's all done in one fermenter. Hope it turns out well for you!

Cheers.
 

CarlE

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Thanks for the response, Matt! I did a bit of searching about using Roeselare in primary right after posting the question, and your answer confirms my conclusions. :mug:
 

jtejedor

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Jipper just had a question. The documentation says to expect a pretty low attenuation leaving the beer at 5.6%. Even though the mash temp is pretty high won't the bugs still chomp through the more complex sugar over time? I would hate to create some bottle bombs, just wondering if maybe the bruery pasteurizes or something cuz the few sour beers I have done attenuated a lot.
 

Jipper

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Hey jtejedor,

Thanks for the great question! They didn't mention anything about pasteurizing during our conversations and email threads. I think that you'd be fine, as the actual bacteria in the Roeselare blend are homofermentative: The only byproduct they produce through fermentation is lactic acid. Normal yeast used in brewing is what we'd consider heterofermentative, which means they produce more than one byproduct, usually being ethanol (alcohol) and carbon dioxide.

I'm guessing that the brettanomyces in the Roeselare blend will ferment most of the easily fermentable sugars, but the pedio and lacto will be what gets through the more complex sugar chains, producing no extra CO2. I'll ask Tyler at The Bruery if they pasteurize though, and if it sounds like we should be worried of bottle bombs, I'll make sure to post a warning and will probably send an email to all of our customers that have purchased the kit. For now, I wouldn't worry about it, as I'm almost certain this will not be an issue unless they're bottled too soon, or too much priming sugar is added during bottling. Again - great question, and if you have any others don't hesitate to ask!
 

fxdude

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Brewed my kit a few weeks ago while splitting a bottle with a brewing friend, this thread answered a few questions I had so thanks. I was recently at The Bruery drinking this beer on their brewery tour and found out that the oak barrels they age this beer in is their used Black Tuesday barrels. I have Black Tuesday and was wondering if I should soak the provided oak in Black Tuesday before I toss it in. The package says bourbon oak so I'm guessing the provided oak has already been soaked in bourbon or comes directly from used bourbon barrels.

Very excited for this one
 

Jipper

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Hey fxdude,

First let me say that I'm a little jealous that you got to go on their brewery tour! That would be a fun (and delicious) one to tour...

That's a good question about the oak provided in the kit. The oak is actual chunks from used bourbon barrels, so will add some bourbon/oak flavor and aroma. Soaking them in Black Tuesday might be a good addition, especially because you have some available, however I'm uncertain how much of that you're going to get in the final product. Depending on how much Black Tuesday you have, it might be better just to enjoy every ounce of that, rather than spending some on your oak chunks.

It's my understanding that they use used bourbon barrels for one batch of Black Tuesday, then after that batch is done they fill the barrel back up with Tart of Darkness, but if anyone knows differently please feel free to share!

Hopefully the kit turns out well, and please let us know if you end up soaking the oak chunks in Black Tuesday fxdude! If you do this, just remember that the beer/oak should not be left out too long, or else you'll pickup some unwanted yeast/bacteria that could do more harm than good...I'd do it in a sanitized mason jar and seal the lid right after pouring in the Black Tuesday.

Cheers!
 

fxdude

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I agree about enjoying every ounce of Black Tuesday, I was trying to decide how much to use, I want to use 8-12oz but would probably only end up using just enough to cover the oak.

I believe you are correct about them using the bourbon barrels for one batch of Black Tuesday then filling it back up with Tart of Darkness

Definitely would sanitize a jar first then soak them covered.

Thanks again for the info, I'll make sure to come back in six to ten months to report my results.
 

jtejedor

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Anyone have any results yet? I pitched ecy-20 instead of roselare and it was pretty sour after a month. After about 4 months now it is starting to develop some complexity. Still wondering about the bottle bomb thing since its only down to 1.017. Guess I can let it ride for a while.
 

fxdude

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I just moved recently after it being in the primary for only four months, I was wanting to age it for 6-8. I decided to transfer into a keg sucking up as much of the yeast as I could and purge the O2 with CO2. I took a little taste and it was great, a little on the light side for a sour but almost there. I'm hoping to age it in the keg at least another 3-4 months on the little bit of yeast I was able to get in there. It actually tasted so good that I'm tempted to leave the oak cubes out of it. Maybe I'll split it into two kegs and throw the cubes into one of them. Didn't get enough for a gravity reading, hoping it made the move ok.
 

Tomcat0304

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The kit does not include the yeast, but does include a 2oz package of oak "bourbon chunks."

Grain:
10 lbs American Pale
1 lb Crystal 60L
1 lb Flaked Oats
8 oz Black Roasted
6 oz Chocolate

Hops:
.5 oz Czech Saaz (60 minutes)

Also includes:
1 Whirfloc tablet
4 oz corn sugar

***edit****
The paperwork also includes the extract information which replaces the 10 lbs American Pale with 8 lbs Ultralight LME.
I'm trying to put this together in BrewSmith, and had a few questions:

1. Is the "8 oz Black Roasted" Black Patent or Black Barley?
2. What is the batch size?
3. Fermentation temp says 65-68*, is that for the whole 12 months, or can I leave it at about those temps for about 4 weeks and move to closer to 75* (to free up space in my ferm chamber)?

Cheers and many thanks!
 

microbusbrewery

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Tomcat0304 said:
I'm trying to put this together in BrewSmith, is the "8 oz Black Roasted" Black Patent or Black Barley?

Cheers and many thanks!
I believe it's Black Barley un-malted and heavily roasted. Black Patent is malted barley that's been heavily roasted.
 

BootsyFlanootsy

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I made an American stout that finished to high for my liking so I am going to try Roeselare in it and see what happens.
Similarly, I brewed a foreign export stout based on a recipe from Ron Pattinson's site. It stalled around 1.020 for some reason, and then picked upa brett infection. I added WLP665 to it and other than adding sour dregs over time, I just let it alone for 10 months.

In July I decided to rack it onto 12#'s of tart cherries that looked to good to resist. The sample at that time tasted phenomenal. Sort of like a flanders with a touch of chocolate and coffee.

Can't wait to see what the cherries add to that equation.
 

Tomcat0304

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I got this started yesterday and have a question:

I started late and was pretty worn out by the end of the brew day. So instead of letting the break material, et al, settle to the bottom of the kettle, it all went into the fermenter. Will having done this hurt the final product after sitting on it for a year or so?

I was also a few gravity points low on my original gravity, but I\'m not really concerned about that.

Thanks!
 
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Here's a dirty little secret. Breweries transfer some break material too as well as hop material and even *gasp* hop seeds. In most cases, with a conical, they might dump the crap off in a day or two just to get the gunk out, and sometimes it stays until they start dumping yeast. Plus if its break from chilling it ALL goes into the fermentor since in most cases (pretty much all but I'm sure there are some small nano like places that chill and whirlpool or something and would make me a liar) they chill on the way to fermentor. So don't worry.
 

fxdude

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Wow, here we are over nine months after brewing this beer and moving places right in between. Like I mentioned in a previous post when I moved I had to move the beer from the primary glass carboy to a keg blanketed with CO2. I tried to suck up as much of the yeast as I could but left at least 1/3-1/2 of it behind. It sat in the primary for around 3-4 months, then another 4-5 months in the keg for a total of 8 months.

The taste was great, I could taste the tart of darkness in it but it was probably 20-30% of the tartness, it was way too light. Pulling it off that primary yeast definitely affected the sourness. I threw the pack of oak in and left it for 4 1/2 weeks. I racked it to a second keg to get it off the leftover yeast and the oak. The flavor really improved quite a bit, the oak added another layer of depth to the flavor that brought it even closer to tart of darkness other than it lacking sourness. The oak comes through just a touch heavy at the end but I'm guessing that's due to lack of sour to balance it out.

I'm thinking about adding a little lactic acid to it to try and sour it up a little more but I've never done this before. I'm very nervous to do this to a beer I've been aging for nearly 10 months now. It's very drinkable but is almost too drinkable for a sour, you could really chug this thing. I'm force carbing right now so taking that a little higher will help with the mouth feel.

Will update on how the lactic acid test goes.
 
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