Tart of Darkness souring

[toddo97]

I'm getting ready to brew a ToD clone that came with wyeast roeselare 3763. I've read that the roeselare won't make a very sour beer until the second or third repitch. I also made a starter for it that I sat on a stir plate for 24 hours before finding on their site that they don't recommend making a starter due to the sacc overpowering the lacto (I pulled it off and put it in the fridge after I saw that). I have bottle dregs from a bottle of ToD that I'm going to pitch, but if I grab another unpasteurized sour and pitch both bottles for 24-48 hours before pitching the roeselare, do you think that would get me some better/faster souring than just throwing everything in at once and letting it sit for a year? I'd rather not have to wait 18 months or more to get it sour enough for my tastes--I know the original isn't super sour, but I'd like to get some decent acidity in it.

 

[Pappers_]

I would think it would help things move along, make it quicker. Better is a different issue, of course, and I don't have any insight into that.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I hate to say it but good sours take a while to make. I wouldn't think you'd have to wait 18 months but I've had one going since beginning of July and its only at a pH of 3.7 (on the sour scale, that's not too sour). This one was done using the wyeast lambic blend.

The only problem i see of pitching additional dregs is you don't know if that is yeast or sour bugs. So you could actually run into the same problem of the yeast overpowering the bugs. I've never done it so only going off of what I've read elsewhere in this forum but a lot of ppl use dregs with decent success.

Id probably pitch both at the same time if it were me and see what happens. Mash it a bit higher in temp which will give the bugs more to eat later on.

 

[toddo97]

I was thinking about that, but I'm now thinking I might brew it and add some Goodbelly for about 36 hours before pitching dregs + the roeselare and letting it age. Since I messed up by doing a starter, I'm already off the rails for an exact clone so I figure I might as well at least get a good sour start before letting everything else go to work for the long haul.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Yeah you could do that. I've done a couple of kettle sours where it's the same concept. I've used Omega lacto twice for kettle sours. Chill the wort post mash to about 100*F, pitch the lacto and let it ride for about 2 days (or until desired sourness is achieved). I keep the kettle on the stove with a thermometer sticking out to monitor temp. If temp drops too low, fire up the stove on low heat to bring it back up again to the 85-90*F range.

I would also suggest prior to pitching the goodbelly, use some lactic acid and drop pH to about 4.0-4.4. This will prevent any unwanted bugs from taking hold in your wort while kettle souring.

Just realized you're talking of doing that POST boil though. Should still work the same. I'd say you have a pretty good plan. I'd try it and see how it goes. You will still end up with a delicious beer! Sounds like you're like me and like the REALLY sour ones. If it's not enough to pucker my face, it's not sour enough hahaha.

The only other thing that I've heard of people doing (again, never done this myself) is let the roeselare run it's course and after it's completely done, use a bit of lactic acid to drop the pH to where you want it. You're already going to be in the mid to high 3's on the pH scale after it's complete (that's a guess based on where the wyeast lambic blend got me) so it won't take much, but a bit of lactic acid would get you some more acidity. Again, never done that but I have heard of people doing it.

Either route you go, I think you'll be ok. Since I've never done the lactic acid addition at the end to get desired pH, I'd almost recommend going your route - pitch the goodbelly, let it go for 36 hours and then pitch your dregs and roeselare.

 

[toddo97]

Good call--I forgot about adding lactic acid, but I'll definitely do that. I'm planning on doing the boil, add a bit of lactic acid, pitch the goodbelly, put my fermwrap on the brewbucket and let sit at 95 for 36 hours or so. Then add everything else. I do like a really sour beer (enamel dissolving), but with the first run of roesalare, I was planning on sour, but not too sour. This way maybe it'll get a low enough pH for my tastes. I think if I harvest the yeast and bugs, the next batch will be really good.

Thanks!

Btw, how is that Dawson's Kriek coming along? That's on my short list of future brews.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Sounds like a plan. I'll be interested to hear how this goes for you. Keep us (or me at the least) updated if you think about it.

It's coming along pretty well. It's pretty tasty but I think it may actually be done. I've checked pH twice now about 2 months apart and it's been 3.7 both times. It's not as sour as I would like but it's pretty tasty. I didn't use the cherry puree that comes with the kit. I swapped those out for tart cherry puree instead.

 

[Harry482]

What’s the recipe?

 

[toddo97]

What’s the recipe?

For the ToD or the kriek?