Syracuse, ny - round 5 group grain buy

[brian4508]

sure!, ill get a list of things i have right now... sadly i dont have any stouts or what not yet.. (brewing this upcoming week a stout "left hand brewing - milk stout clone")

then later next month doing a whole bunch.. my pipeline is so full at the moment i dont have any room to put anything anywhere...

I just brewed the LHMS clone last weekend. It is in primary (1 week in). It looks good. Patience is going to be hard with this batch!

 

[bierhaus15]

Cidah, what did we decide with the brown malt? On the sheet you have me down for 2/3 sack, though I thought we found someone to go in for thirds.

I do have 1/3 roast and 2/3 pale chocolate.

Edit: For those going out from SYR to pick up, I'll be happy to pitch in for some gas or whatever.

 

[jhenderson27]

I still do the gift option, it just charges a small nominal fee.

 

[copyright1997]

Payment details I am still working on. Right now i have an email into paypal and I hope they respond in a favorable manner. I might just say the hell with it and use it and see what happens. However if we do use it and I get nailed with fees I don't feel its right I should have to pay them, especially since I donate my time to arrange these buys.


Twogunz had also sent me a link showing how you can pass payments back and forth via amazon.com if you have an account. Has anybody used that before? If people are receptive to trying that, we could potentially give that a go. They aren't explicit in their fee schedule and basically say that any payments between account holders are free. I find this a little too good to be true. I think they limit transactions to $3k per month. Either way I haven't read through it enough to fully understand it.

I am considering taking checks, but to be frank that is a PITA for me to have to collect a bunch of checks and deposit them and then turn around and forward the amount to the buyer. I also don't want to subject the buyer to that PITA since he is helping us out.

suggestions welcome!

I'm perfectly willing to send extra $ to cover the paypal fees. At 2.9% + $.30 per transaction it works out to $3.72 on my $117.79 order. I think I can handle that! EDIT: This calculation is slightly low, see follow-up post.

Looking at Amazon, it does look like you can do personal/friends/family transfers for no fee, subject to monthly limits. Looking at the user agreement, it appears to be $500 but the language implies it can be higher with a verified account.
https://payments.amazon.com/sdui/sdui/about?nodeId=6022#fees. Similar restrictions on senders prior to them having a verified account.

Anyway, I know this is a LOT of work for you (having seen the pile of grain in your garage from the last group buy), so whatever works for you is fine with me.

 

[TwoGunz]

We could use this: http://thefeecalculator.com/ or do the same thing in excel and then have you pay the charge on withdrawal and with the magic of mathematics you'll get the right amount.

You'd probably want to pay the buyer direct or there's another fee

 

[copyright1997]

We could use this: http://thefeecalculator.com/ or do the same thing in excel and then have you pay the charge on withdrawal and with the magic of mathematics you'll get the right amount.

You'd probably want to pay the buyer direct or there's another fee

Hey, that's $.10 different than my calculation! High-way robbery.

Actually, it's because I made a mistake on my calculation in that the receiver pays the fees, so if we increase to account for the fee (2.9% + $.30) there is a fee on the fee amount. (Sort of like when I traveled for work so much my travel expenses became taxable so my employer paid me money to pay those taxes which of course was also taxable and on we go ... )

So, let's see. 1/(1-.029) = 1.029866117404737 ==> 2.9866%, plus the $.30. So, in my example: $117.79 * 1.029866.... => $121.31 + .03 = $121.61, which agrees with the fee calculator website.

I think I need a beer after all this complex math.

 

[TwoGunz]

Nice work. Paypal gets a slightly bigger cut this way but I can live with that if need be.

 

[CidahMastah]

Cidah, what did we decide with the brown malt? On the sheet you have me down for 2/3 sack, though I thought we found someone to go in for thirds.

I do have 1/3 roast and 2/3 pale chocolate.

Edit: For those going out from SYR to pick up, I'll be happy to pitch in for some gas or whatever.

8. TF-BRWN Brown Malt 1/3 (bierhaus15, cidahmastah, twogunz[/B])

was the end result - that is how we last left it. i.e. you are on for 1/3 share.

 

[CidahMastah]

Here is my thought. Keep brain storming at will and lets see if I hear back from paypal by the time we have actual $ in. I will make a game time situation call on the use of paypal and see what happens. We should hear back today or tomorrow about the actual costs for the grain from NCM.

 

[drocu]

Here's a description of Paypal's fees:
https://cms.paypal.com/cgi-bin/marketingweb?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=marketing_us/fees

If you link your bank account to your Paypal account (instead of a credit card), there is no 2.9% service fee.

Even still, if you pay someone as a "gift" through Paypal, you can choose to absorb that 2.9% fee or pass it onto the seller.

 

[jeffb418]

Here's a description of Paypal's fees:
https://cms.paypal.com/cgi-bin/marketingweb?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=marketing_us/fees

If you link your bank account to your Paypal account (instead of a credit card), there is no 2.9% service fee.

Even still, if you pay someone as a "gift" through Paypal, you can choose to absorb that 2.9% fee or pass it onto the seller.

Correct, if you send the money from your account and its linked directly to a bank account or debit card, and it's sent as a "gift" or "other", there is no fee at all. But if you want to use your CC, it will charge you a fee (in which you should absorb since you are taking the convenience of using a CC instead of linking your account to Paypal).

Before you send it will clearly state how much the recipient is getting, if there are fees, and how much you are sending, etc.

 

[jeffb418]

Correct, if you send the money from your account and its linked directly to a bank account or debit card, and it's sent as a "gift" or "other", there is no fee at all. But if you want to use your CC, it will charge you a fee (in which you should absorb since you are taking the convenience of using a CC instead of linking your account to Paypal).

Before you send it will clearly state how much the recipient is getting, if there are fees, and how much you are sending, etc.

Also if you read the first page on how to pay, this is exactly the correct way to proceed to avoid the fee's.

In addition, you can also send $ to your paypal balance two ways:
1) send from a bank account (same as linking your account and sending like above)
2) purchase a moneypak card at a retailer ($4.95 or less + how ever much you want to put on) then load it with how ever much you want to transfer to your paypal account. Once its in your account, you can send it as a "Gift" for free.
https://www.moneypak.com/PayPal/Index.aspx#

 

[CidahMastah]

Right now I don't think that Paypal has the grounds to charge a fee to us, even if they don't like that we are using the service this way. There is a careful distinction that I made with paypal; we are not buying or selling anything using the paypal service. Rather we are using the service to reimburse a friend who pays for the grain out of his own pocket for us (not through paypal). We then reimburse him for the actual cost and no profits or fees are collected for services. i.e. paypal claims a right to charge a seller, but we are not using THEIR service to directly buy anything. Furthermore we don't have a seller based on paypal's user agreement definition of "seller". I did note that on the positive for them our buy was encouraging new paypal usership through new sign ups (hey you gotta try ).

Once I stated our position as such Paypal never responded despite two more follow up emails. Mainly because I believe they realized that they don't have a write to charge us until they rewrite their terms and conditions of the user agreement; will take a while if they choose to rewrite.

The only real issues that I see are:
1. They sort of imply with their language that they can limit, or remove paypal services from you for any reason they choose. They might be able to disable gift sending or even our accounts.
2. If you guys absorb the fee, our actions show that we believe the terms and conditions are set where we are responsible for a fee. I don't want to set that precedent.
3. Even if you guys absorb the fees, I still have to reroute the the total amount to the seller, and I might get stuck with another 3% on top of what you guys pay. then we are talking 6% in fees... um no thank you.

In short I believe that we have two choices:
1. Use paypal as before
2. Find a new service.

My follow up emails have shown my intent to use the service as we had in the past as well as my reasonableness to communicate with paypal. Since I have done that I am feeling better and better about taking the risk. However, if it hits the fan, I will fully hope and expect people toss in as needed to bail me out from absorbing all the fees myself - as annoying as it may be to send me a payment of as low as $2 each or something.


If I don't hear from paypal by COB today/tomorrow, I think we will proceed as we have in the past, assessing no fees.

 

[CBK]

If you are charged extra fees by paypal I personally have no problem remitting my portion. This is such a good deal on the the grain that a few dollars more should not be a problem imho.

 

[jeffb418]

Right now I don't think that Paypal has the grounds to charge a fee to us, even if they don't like that we are using the service this way. There is a careful distinction that I made with paypal; we are not buying or selling anything using the paypal service. Rather we are using the service to reimburse a friend who pays for the grain out of his own pocket for us (not through paypal). We then reimburse him for the actual cost and no profits or fees are collected for services. i.e. paypal claims a right to charge a seller, but we are not using THEIR service to directly buy anything. Furthermore we don't have a seller based on paypal's user agreement definition of "seller". I did note that on the positive for them our buy was encouraging new paypal usership through new sign ups (hey you gotta try ).

Once I stated our position as such Paypal never responded despite two more follow up emails. Mainly because I believe they realized that they don't have a write to charge us until they rewrite their terms and conditions of the user agreement; will take a while if they choose to rewrite.

The only real issues that I see are:
1. They sort of imply with their language that they can limit, or remove paypal services from you for any reason they choose. They might be able to disable gift sending or even our accounts.
2. If you guys absorb the fee, our actions show that we believe the terms and conditions are set where we are responsible for a fee. I don't want to set that precedent.
3. Even if you guys absorb the fees, I still have to reroute the the total amount to the seller, and I might get stuck with another 3% on top of what you guys pay. then we are talking 6% in fees... um no thank you.

In short I believe that we have two choices:
1. Use paypal as before
2. Find a new service.

My follow up emails have shown my intent to use the service as we had in the past as well as my reasonableness to communicate with paypal. Since I have done that I am feeling better and better about taking the risk. However, if it hits the fan, I will fully hope and expect people toss in as needed to bail me out from absorbing all the fees myself - as annoying as it may be to send me a payment of as low as $2 each or something.


If I don't hear from paypal by COB today/tomorrow, I think we will proceed as we have in the past, assessing no fees.

Yeah Paypal does everything they can to get $. I do a lot of buying and selling of pinball machines and pinball parts online haven't run into any issues myself.

One thing you have to be careful of is a situation that occurred to me about a year ago. I bought a pinball machine from a guy in Mass and "gifted" him a $1k deposit on the machine. My side went through fine w/ no fees, but pay-pal locked his account on his side and wouldn't let him get to his funds until he called them. This wasn't his first big transfer into his account that month, he had sold a few machines and had deposits sent to his account. So the large amounts sent a flag to Paypal and they were trying to get him to pay fees on all his transactions. In the end he got his money, but I'm pretty sure they banned him from using the service.

Read more here: http://groups.google.com/group/rec....st&q=shacklersrevenge+paypal#1071115cdbdb9db1

So since you are looking in the $2k range for this order, I'd be careful.

Paper checks and snail mail might be your best bet.

 

[CidahMastah]

The only key difference with the pinball scenario is that you are actually buying/selling something with paypal - giving money down on a pinball machine (profits were made). If you use paypal to buy/sell something (and fees or profits are made), they have a right to collect a fee from either the seller or buyer. We aren't buying anything with the service, just passing money back and forth.

Or do you mean he refunded the deposits and you later paid him in cash??

Thanks for the back story though!

 

[copyright1997]

Has anyone ever done a group hops buy from http://www.hopsdirect.com/store/pellet-hops.html? I noticed this thread and was curious.

I have a bunch of stuff from before AND I picked up (for free) over 3 pounds of hops locally (mostly cascade), so I am set on some/most things. But, there are some hops I seem to be using a lot (like centenial) that I wouldn't mind getting.

There is some discount listed on the site if you get a 5# or 11# bag. For example, the centenial goes from $10.35/pound (1 #) to $9.85/pound (11#), but that is minimal. (It is aproximately a 5% discount - hardly worth splitting it: weighing and re-vacumn sealing). Perhaps the bigger savings is in reduced shipping costs and the fact that people sometimes split up #'s into shares?

 

[jhenderson27]

I wish i could remember the place, but they sold everything in 4oz packs. I have the shipping box at home. Ill get it for you. Excellent prices, good selection and quality.

 

[jhenderson27]

It hit me, farm house brewing supply

 

[CidahMastah]

immediate action needed

ok all, we need to either:
1. remove one bag of grain
2. or the chemicals

due to the weight. I suggest we pull a bag of grain - anyone want out of a full bag of grain?

If necessary I can take one for the team I suppose and lose one of my bags if no one else wants to.

 

[rustbucket]

you can cut 1 bag of 2row from my order

 

[rustbucket]

It hit me, farm house brewing supply

i buy 90% of my hops from there, their prices are well with in reason, and much cheaper after shipping if you buy a lot vs hopsdirect for 1lb i bought from hops direct i paid close to 10 dollars, and i bought 3lbs of hops and 15 lbs of grain from farmhouse, and paid the same for shipping. So i would recommend farmhouse over others.. (to justify the shipping just make sure you order a lot of hops if that is the only thing your ordering)

 

[CidahMastah]

you can cut 1 bag of 2row from my order

you sure rust?

 

[rustbucket]

yeah i am, i still have a full sack... and i havent been brewing much due to having a full pipeline..

 

[Smashing]

Thanks for the sacrifice Rust! Nice to have a pipeline all full. This is my first grain order and I have an empty kegorator and 10 empty Kegs. I'm gonna fix that problem fast!

 

[CidahMastah]

yeah i am, i still have a full sack... and i havent been brewing much due to having a full pipeline..

through a cider party! that killed about 5-6 of mine!

Thanks for making the sacrifice. If you find yourself running low let me know.


Should have pricing tomorrow.

 

[buffalobrewer]

Cidah, you can kill my bag of 2 row. I can split with someone in the homebrewing club. (besides, I'm pushing the weight limit on my car...)

Mike

 

[buffalobrewer]

I see rust took it for the team....

 

[CidahMastah]

Well then is it Mike's 2 row that we are cutting out or yours rust? you guys fight it out.

if it is yours (Mike) let me know whose it is that I am taking out.

 

[rustbucket]

cut mine, haha i bet he will be needing it more than i will, Plus my eff is so freaking high right now i have to use less grain... (im about 90 right now)

since im closer to everyone here for the grain/buys i figure it would ultimately be easier for me to get more vs buf.