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Swiss lager, s-189

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MrFeltimo

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I used two rehydrated packs in a recent German pils, og was 1048.
I made this on Saturday and pitched late Saturday evening. It's now Wednesday and I'm only just seeing active fermentation.
Has anyone had experience with this yeast and it's lag time?
Thanks
 

Steveruch

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I really like S-189. I've used it several times and will use it again. I've always had activity in less than 24 hours. What size was your batch? I normally use two packs on a three gallon batch.
 
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MrFeltimo

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It was a 5.5 gal batch. This was from the beersmith recommendation.
 

RedlegEd

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It was a 5.5 gal batch. This was from the beersmith recommendation.
Hi. I've also used S-189 with excellent results. I think you'll get a little bit of a lag time, especially if you pitched cold. I usually pitch around 68°F, and then start ramping down slowly to ~54-55°F to ferment. Give it some time, but it's a great yeast that finishes really clean. Hope this helps. Ed
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Weezy

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You really shouldn't pitch warm then chill. You run the risk of yeast shutting down and dumping undesirable esters and off flavors.
 

Gish

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I have used 189 at least a dozen time. The slowest start I have had was around 40 to 48 hours when pitching in the low 50s and I didn't bring the yeast down to pitching temps after rehydrating. I'm sure I shocked the yeast slowing them down!
 

RedlegEd

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You really shouldn't pitch warm then chill. You run the risk of yeast shutting down and dumping undesirable esters and off flavors.
Hi @Weezy . I beg to differ, especially if you don't build a starter of pitch really big. The first 12-24 hours, the yeast are building numbers, not fermenting, so a warm pitch (i.e. <68°F) with a fairly quick ramp down won't generally produce off flavors or esters. Brulosphy had an exbeeriment that pretty much showed that, and Chris White (White Labs) says that it's a valid technique (go to number 19.) Ed
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MrFeltimo

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Thanks guys, I pitched at 54 but raised to 58 after a couple of days, this started the process.
 

Weezy

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Hi @Weezy . I beg to differ, especially if you don't build a starter of pitch really big. The first 12-24 hours, the yeast are building numbers, not fermenting, so a warm pitch (i.e. <68°F) with a fairly quick ramp down won't generally produce off flavors or esters. Brulosphy had an exbeeriment that pretty much showed that, and Chris White (White Labs) says that it's a valid technique (go to number 19.) Ed
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Well that's odd since Chris White's and Jamil's book says the optimum pitch temp is 1-2 degrees below your target fermentation temp. This is right after a few pages discussing yeast stress. I imagine lower temp variations resume in less noticeable effects but the science is clear...and the Brulospher's work entail entirely too many variables in his test formulation to subjective analysis to bee considered much more than anecdotal. I'd prefer to stick to the science and recommend sticking to the science. I imagine that the Brulosepher could brew a RIS with 3% dog sh*t and only 3 out of 15 taste testers could tell the difference...it doesn't make it a good idea.
 

RedlegEd

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Well that's odd since Chris White's and Jamil's book says the optimum pitch temp is 1-2 degrees below your target fermentation temp. This is right after a few pages discussing yeast stress. I imagine lower temp variations resume in less noticeable effects but the science is clear...and the Brulospher's work entail entirely too many variables in his test formulation to subjective analysis to bee considered much more than anecdotal. I'd prefer to stick to the science and recommend sticking to the science. I imagine that the Brulosepher could brew a RIS with 3% dog sh*t and only 3 out of 15 taste testers could tell the difference...it doesn't make it a good idea.
Hi, again.
I take the point about Brulospher, but if "science" is so absolute, why does the White Labs website say:

"Question:
What temperature should I pitch a lager yeast?

Answer:
There are two different methods of pitching lagers. Brewers use each method with success, but every brewer has their preference.

The easiest method is (A).

A) Start the yeast warm and lower to 50-55°F after the start of fermentation. The yeast should be pitched at 66-70°F. Once you see active fermentation, bring the temperature of the wort down 10° per 12 hours until the desired temperature is reached. This method works well without forming high amounts of esters because most esters are produced after the first 12 hours.

B) Pitch the yeast at the desired fermentation temperature (48-55°F). Lager yeast ferment well at this temperature, but they grow very slowly. If you are using this method, understand that you may not see signs of activity for 48-72 hours. If starting the fermentation cold, we recommend you make a 1-2 liter starter per 5 gallons, or if a commercial brewery, pitching the next size up (a 21BBL pitchable for 15BBLs, for instance)."

Seems to me there are two options, both scientific and neither refuted by the makers of the yeast. Yours isn't the only "correct" answer. Ed
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JordanKnudson

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Hi @Weezy . I beg to differ, especially if you don't build a starter of pitch really big. The first 12-24 hours, the yeast are building numbers, not fermenting, so a warm pitch (i.e. <68°F) with a fairly quick ramp down won't generally produce off flavors or esters. Brulosphy had an exbeeriment that pretty much showed that, and Chris White (White Labs) says that it's a valid technique (go to number 19.) Ed
:mug:
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, as I do think we've seen some "non-traditional" methods of running lager fermentations come into acceptance recently, and it seems that folks feel that they produce just as good a result (I don't yet have much experience testing these methods out). However, wasn't the Brulosophy exbeeriment specifically on Saflager 34/70? Some other lager strains have been shown to be less forgiving of higher temperatures. Did they also do one on S-189 that I missed?
 

RedlegEd

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I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, as I do think we've seen some "non-traditional" methods of running lager fermentations come into acceptance recently, and it seems that folks feel that they produce just as good a result (I don't yet have much experience testing these methods out). However, wasn't the Brulosophy exbeeriment specifically on Saflager 34/70? Some other lager strains have been shown to be less forgiving of higher temperatures. Did they also do one on S-189 that I missed?
Hi. No, you're correct, and @Weezy was also correct to point out that using Brulosopher's exbeeriments to make a point isn't exactly a good way to go. I think my previous post from the White Lab's website was probably the best counter to the cold pitch only argument. I think in terms of what Brulosphy was trying to do was take an example to test. As you well know, there are a whole bunch of different strains of s. pastorianus, of which 34/70 is probably one of the most common/popular. My point was that there isn't just one "correct" answer to pitching lager yeast. If White Labs puts forth both as options with neither being recommended over the other, I see that as validation that the way I do it isn't necessarily wrong. I really do appreciate the civil discourse and polite conversation by all. It's nice to be able to debate a subject without getting personal or mean spirited. I think ultimately, it boils down to preference of process. Ed
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Weezy

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WL website says "This method works well without forming high amounts of esters because most esters are produced after the first 12 hours." The ideal condition is the cold pitch.

My point was its likely strain dependent. And if you're trying to brew award winning beer, I'd stick to the pitching cold regime.
 

Steveruch

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Hi @Weezy . I beg to differ, especially if you don't build a starter of pitch really big. The first 12-24 hours, the yeast are building numbers, not fermenting, so a warm pitch (i.e. <68°F) with a fairly quick ramp down won't generally produce off flavors or esters
:mug:
My normal procedure is to get the wort down as low as possible: 60-66 depending on the time of year. Then I pitch the yeast mid afternoon and put the carboy into the "cellar" at 50f. The wort is down to the low 50s by morning and is usually showing signs of fermentation before 24 hours. Last year a maibock brewed this way with S-189 got me the second highest score I've ever received.
 
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