Substitude for w34/70 yeast

[Jon Hof]

What would be a good substitute for w34/70 yeast, I have used 34/70 many times and there's always a faint aftertaste that I don't like. Any suggestions to fix that?

 

[FloppyKnockers]

I've used S-23 when I couldn't find any 34/70.

You'd have to describe the aftertaste to come up with a suggestion. It could just be the yeast.

 

[beernutz]

Wyeast 2124 (Bohemian Lager), WLP 830 (German Lager), and Imperial L13 Global are supposedly all the Weihenstephan 34/70 strain.

FWIW, I don't get an aftertaste with W34/70 and a number of commercial brewers claim to use it. Fermentis S-189 has been a solid performer for me but while lots of people like S-23, and I had a really nice Bo Pils last night at a brew club meeting made with it, I've not had great results myself so I avoid it now.

My fav lager yeast though has to be WLP 833 (German Bock) but since I rarely fool with liquid yeasts anymore 34/70 is generally my goto. I am experimenting with Mangrove Jack M84 in a Czech Pils but its still in the fermenter so no data to report yet except that it was a very slow starter.

 

[Kickass]

Reading manufactures descriptions, cellar science German and diamond lager both look like they might be from the same source as 34/70. Both of which I’ve done warm fermented lagers (58-62f ambient temps) and had great results that tasted like 34/70, to me

 

[ncbrewer]

I've brewed Marzen with 34/70 and later with S-189. I liked the S-189 better but haven't done a side-by-side.

 

[Protos]

I have used 34/70 many times and there's always a faint aftertaste that I don't like. Any suggestions to fix that?

I may confirm, there is an aftertaste specific to Fermentis W34/70. I clearly noticed it in each my brew with that yeast. I didn't like it, so I stopped using the yeast altogether.
The best dry substitute in my experience is Mangrove Jack's M76 Bavarian Lager. Very similar. Zero aftertaste.

 

[Jon Hof]

I may confirm, there is an aftertaste specific to Fermentis W34/70. I clearly noticed it in each my brew with that yeast. I didn't like it, so I stopped using the yeast altogether.
The best dry substitute in my experience is Mangrove Jack's M76 Bavarian Lager. Very similar. Zero aftertaste.

I'll give the Mangrove Jack's a try, see how it turns out. I can't stand that aftertaste, even though it does kind of diminish if you give it enough time.

 

[Protos]

Besides aging, you may diminish the aftertaste by brewing strong, malty, dark, chewy Bocks with W34/70. I didn't care for W34/70 in any of my light Lagers, but the Bocks I made with it came out very good. Mighty malt and alcohol masked the aftertaste and it wasn't noticeable.
S-189 is significantly better for Bocks, though.

 

[Miraculix]

Besides aging, you may diminish the aftertaste by brewing strong, malty, dark, chewy Bocks with W34/70. I didn't care for W34/70 in any of my light Lagers, but the Bocks I made with it came out very good. Mighty malt and alcohol masked the aftertaste and it wasn't noticeable.
S-189 is significantly better for Bocks, though.

Can you describe the aftertaste? I think I never had it. 3470 was always just very clean to me.

 

[RePete]

How much are you pitching? I've found that I have gotten a bubblegum type taste when not pitching enough yeast. Fermentis recommends 2 packs of dry yeast for a 5 gallon batch, and it needs it. Since doing this, I had been quite happy with 34/70.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Start splitting your batches and use 2 different yeasts that's the best way I have found to zero in on the taste I like or don't like. Also what type of beer are you trying to brew? Instead of using a generic lager yeast try using the specific strain for that type of beer. Perfect time to split a batch trying the type specific yeast compared to the generic.

 

[odie]

I've used S-23. But 34/70 is my all around go-to lager yeast

 

[Steveruch]

I'm part way through a batch of pilsner that was fermented with S-189.

 

[Jon Hof]

How much are you pitching? I've found that I have gotten a bubblegum type taste when not pitching enough yeast. Fermentis recommends 2 packs of dry yeast for a 5 gallon batch, and it needs it. Since doing this, I had been quite happy with 34/70.

I always just pitch one packet, i guess i could also try that. or just try splitting it like Johndbrewer suggested. I'll play around with it. A friend also suggested doing 80 minute boils instead of 60 minutes. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Steveruch]

I always just pitch one packet, i guess i could also try that. or just try splitting it like Johndbrewer suggested. I'll play around with it. A friend also suggested doing 80 minute boils instead of 60 minutes. Any thoughts on that?

Not necessary. I did a 30 minute boil with this one; it came out great.

 

[RePete]

I always just pitch one packet, i guess i could also try that. or just try splitting it like Johndbrewer suggested. I'll play around with it. A friend also suggested doing 80 minute boils instead of 60 minutes. Any thoughts on that?

Just pitch more yeast.

 

[jcfontario]

Wyeast 2124 (Bohemian Lager), WLP 830 (German Lager), and Imperial L13 Global are supposedly all the Weihenstephan 34/70 strain.

FWIW, I don't get an aftertaste with W34/70 and a number of commercial brewers claim to use it. Fermentis S-189 has been a solid performer for me but while lots of people like S-23, and I had a really nice Bo Pils last night at a brew club meeting made with it, I've not had great results myself so I avoid it now.

My fav lager yeast though has to be WLP 833 (German Bock) but since I rarely fool with liquid yeasts anymore 34/70 is generally my goto. I am experimenting with Mangrove Jack M84 in a Czech Pils but its still in the fermenter so no data to report yet except that it was a very slow starter.

I agree that M84 was slow in starting. I had to kick it up to the upper 50's F to get it going then keep it cool afterwards.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

M76 and Diamond Lager are both very similar to W34-70. Both have their fans. As does W34/70.

 

[thehaze]

W-34/70 is very clean and using it for lagers that you would normally start drinking after 6-8 weeks, produces incredibly clean, commercial style beer. I have used it for both homebrewing and brewing larger batches and comes out as you would expect. Pitching rate is extremely important. 1 sachet for 5 gallons is underpitching, no matter the starting gravity.

For anything between 1.030 and 1.050, I would use 2 sachets and add one more for every 15 gravity points or so. It of course depends on style, gravity, wort composition, final fermenter volume, etc. But I have never only used 1 sachet, as it is underpitching. I also often use Lallemand yeast and their calculator is spot on.

Lallemand Diamond at 15 degrees Celsius, for 23 liters in the fermenter ( 5 gal ) requires 26 grams of yeast for a starting gravity of only 1.050. W-34/70 would require the same at lower temperatures. The yeast requirement is reduced once you ferment higher, which is also fine. Again, you will not drop under 22 grams for 5 gallons at 64-68F.

In regards to the " aftertaste " you are experiencing with your lagers fermented with W-34/70 - extreme underpitching will increase esters and most likely off-flavours, which all could account for the undesirable aftertaste. By pitching 1 sachet, you are only pitching 50% of the required yeast for a healthy fermentation and a clean, final product. Cheers!

 

[Oleson M.D.]

Two thoughts, and this is just our technique, not established procedure...

We always over pitch. Always! One quart of fresh yeast slurry per 5.5 gallons.

And we always use Diamond Lager Yeast. W-34/70 was used previously, until we tried Diamond.

Our yeast is harvested from past brews. We brew often, so it is always fresh and ready to go. We never make a starter.

 

[Ren06]

I have recently used 34/70 in a very light 5gal märzen I made and pitched 2 packs the beer came out GREAT! My only critique was on my grain choices not the yeast. The 34/70 worked great hopefully this helps you .

 

[bwible]

I always just pitch one packet, i guess i could also try that. or just try splitting it like Johndbrewer suggested. I'll play around with it. A friend also suggested doing 80 minute boils instead of 60 minutes. Any thoughts on that?

Some people swear by longer boils, like 90 mins, when they are making recipes with pilsener malt. It was an old myth which I believe has largely been debunked that grain bills with a large percentage of pilsener malt need extended boils to reduce dms. Dms would present as a corn flavor, some say it tastes like canned corn. Not bubblegum.

 

[Steveruch]

Some people swear by longer boils, like 90 mins, when they are making recipes with pilsener malt. It was an old myth which I believe has largely been debunked that grain bills with a large percentage of pilsener malt need extended boils to reduce dms. Dms would present as a corn flavor, some say it tastes like canned corn. Not bubblegum.

30 minute boil; turned out great.

 

[dmtaylor]

S-189 or Diamond are great & better.

 

[RePete]

Our yeast is harvested from past brews. We brew often, so it is always fresh and ready to go. We never make a starter.

This is what I have done the past couple of years when brewing frequently. The first batch is with 2 packs of 34/70. I am doing 5 gallon batches. Subsequent batches are just pitched onto the existing yeast cake. I don't clean the fermenter between batches. Blasphemy I know. I have a plastic fermenter with a valve at the bottom, and just gravity feed into a keg. Then close it, and open the top when ready to pour in fresh wort. I do this for 5 or 6 batches and start over. It's been working great.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

This is what I have done the past couple of years when brewing frequently. The first batch is with 2 packs of 34/70. I am doing 5 gallon batches. Subsequent batches are just pitched onto the existing yeast cake. I don't clean the fermenter between batches. Blasphemy I know. I have a plastic fermenter with a valve at the bottom, and just gravity feed into a keg. Then close it, and open the top when ready to pour in fresh wort. I do this for 5 or 6 batches and start over. It's been working great.

Good for you! Not only is your yeast better quality, after several generations, but think how much money you are saving.

 

[Protos]

Can you describe the aftertaste? I think I never had it. 3470 was always just very clean to me.

Well, it's not easy to put the taste experience into words, but the closest (although not totally exact) description I can find for it is "paper-like".
Not the same as the cardboard-like flavour of oxydized beer, it's quite differemt and less offensive, though it was enough to turn me off of that yeast.
I'm sure the twang came along not because of underpitching (I was getting it from yeast cakes as well as from fresh dry-sprinkled inoculations) and not because of brewing errors, as same recipes and techniques produced zero "papery twang" with different yeasts. I think it's a yeast feature and maybe I'm particularly sensible to it.

 

[Bill Tong]

And we always use Diamond Lager Yeast. W-34/70 was used previously, until we tried Diamond.

I agree! For me Diamond Lager has that authentic German lager aroma, which i have never been able to get with any of the Saflager yeasts.

I ferment Diamond lager at 12C until +-75% done then finish at room temp (18-20) and i have been very happy with the results.

 

[Beermeister32]

Some people swear by longer boils, like 90 mins, when they are making recipes with pilsener malt. It was an old myth which I believe has largely been debunked that grain bills with a large percentage of pilsener malt need extended boils to reduce dms. Dms would present as a corn flavor, some say it tastes like canned corn. Not bubblegum.

I did somebody else's Pilsner recipe once that called out for a 60 minute Pilsner boil. Previously I had run 90 minute Pilsner boils.

The batch was a DMS bomb. So, anecdotally of course, I can attest to the fact that yes it can happen. Maybe not with all Pilsner suppliers, there are many, and not all the time. Also, people’s taste thresholds for DMS differ. I’m back to 90 minute boils with Pilsner malts…