Sub 1.030 beers

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Very interesting thread! I can't say I usually care that much if my homebrew has 4 or 5 percent abv, but it does seem like an interesting challenge - and a 3-3.5% brew would indeed make for a great option if the other homebrew on hand is a 6%+ beer.

I guess some of you know the Bavarian brewery "Schönramer". I recently went to the restaurant attached to the brewery and tried most of their beers. While all were very good, one to stand out was their "Surtaler Schankbier", a 3.5%abv lager of bright golden colour. It was a warm day spent hiking, so this was the perfect beverage in that situation. Light, but not watery; like a Helles with reduced sweetness.

The menu disclosed that the beer had a Stammwürze of 9° plato and was made using 15% specialty malts. So that goes in a similar direction to the common approach in this thread: lots of specialty malts and low attenuation.
I tried to gather some more information on it, in order to spin up something similar, but couldn't find too much.

The shop says it has 18 IBU and lists barley malt and caramel malt in the ingredients (a strange distinction, as the caramel malt is certainly also made from barley). The description on the brewery's website attributes its rich taste to "toasted (or 'roasted') specialty malts", which rather sounds like Victory malt or something instead of crystal malt.

Any suggestions? I couldn't find too much on lagers in this thread. I know light lagers are quite popular in the US, but I think they're typically much less flavourful than this Surtaler Schankbier.
 
Stammwürze is apparently "original wort" which at 9P is 1.036. for a 3.5% beer that means it's FG should be around 1.010.

Since you said it was bright golden, if it was a large portion of Vienna with some pils, but it could just be 15% carahell to get similar. Maybe just start with all pils, 15% carahell, and play with some yeasts to get close to 1.010. you might consider doing a warm ish mash 155 or so. I dont think you need to do a 165 mash or something like that.

I also have a question for the group. I brewed a micro beer with 1.026 OG with a grist of mostly rye and briess golden roast oats. Some oat malt and C20 filled out the grain bill in a smaller portion. Mash temp was 165. Hopped with an experimental blend NZH-107 4 oz at flame out and another 4 after I hit my 1.014 FG. Fermented with a full pack of S04 at 64. sample after ferm complete was fine, no off flavors

Ferm was over pretty quick, then i soft crashed and dry hopped at 64 per my normal procedure. However the keg did warm up over one night to approx 68-70. I then tossed the keg in the keezer and started to carb. My first sample was 10/13, which is 10 days post brew day. A quick brew for sure, but it only had to ferment 10 points.

The main flavor and aroma at the moment is plain Chobani...I hate chobani in any flavor, so it is quite off putting. Trying to do some research on the two and all i can find is some defect in chobani a few years ago, nothing homebrew related.
 
Miraculix said:
What is chobani?!
Click to expand...
A brand of Greek yogurt, that to me, has a very specific smell. Other brands do not suffer this. it’s hard to describe exactly what that smell is, it goes beyond just lactic acid smell. Doesn’t smell butryic like a bad kettle sour
 
Miraculix said:
Urgs.... Doesn't sound appealing.
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yeah...not what i would be looking for in any beer.

I left the keg out at room temp with a spunding valve to see if the yeast will clean it up. After 2 days it has improved, but it is still a little there. I made a massive eff up last night, thinking that if i restarted ferm with a little DME, the active yeast would help clean this off flavor up. Despite having transferred many carbed kegs and under pressure, i had a massive brain fart and opened the keg......BEER EVERYWHERE.

after massive clean up efforts, I had lost about 1 gallon and plenty of my dry hops, but i did get the DME in and my pressure is higher this morning than it was last night....we'll see if this does anything.
 
Sounds like Murphy's law in action! Good luck for the further development, hopefully it will be nice at the end.

I also thought about making a rye based small beer for the sake of flavour. Maybe something like rye/spelt/ Munich or Vienna in similar amounts. That should maximise the flavor with this low abv beer. I hope that yours turns out well and that you can report a bit about it!
 
Miraculix said:
Sounds like Murphy's law in action! Good luck for the further development, hopefully it will be nice at the end.

I also thought about making a rye based small beer for the sake of flavour. Maybe something like rye/spelt/ Munich or Vienna in similar amounts. That should maximise the flavor with this low abv beer. I hope that yours turns out well and that you can report a bit about it!
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yeah, fingers crossed. the link for the recipe i based mine off is below. Mine was roughly

51% rye (3lbs)
25% Briess Blonde Roast Oats (1.5lbs)
17% Oat Malt (1lb)
7% C20 (6oz)

This was for ~4.5g

Mash 165F, 45 minutes.

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2018/07/rye-neipa-with-mosaic-and-hallertau.html
he has another ~3% beer that is all Vienna
 
Miraculix said:
I don't like neipas... But otherwise it looks like an interesting idea! How is the foam? Mouthfeel?
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not sure on the foam yet....the sample i had a couple days ago was not fully carbed yet. Most of the foam i saw so far ended up on the basement floor last night, haha.

it didn't dissipate right away though, so it is promising, i think.

mouthfeel was kind of weird. Initially the mouthfeel was pretty great then the finish is quite dry. it's like drinking two different beers honestly.

I do think i'd skip dry hops if i do another small beer like this. I might try that pilsner noted above by @monkeymath ...sounds interesting.

Edit: @monkeymath I'm going to double down on the carahell. I checked BSG and confirmed it is roasted. "Weyermann® CARAHELL® is a drum-roasted caramel malt made from two-row, German barley that delivers a fuller body, improved aroma, and increased beer foam while also contributing to a more fuller, rounder body and flavor." Weyermann® CARAHELL®

seems to be very in line with both the restaurant and brewery description
 
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BeerFst said:
not sure on the foam yet....the sample i had a couple days ago was not fully carbed yet. Most of the foam i saw so far ended up on the basement floor last night, haha.

it didn't dissipate right away though, so it is promising, i think.

mouthfeel was kind of weird. Initially the mouthfeel was pretty great then the finish is quite dry. it's like drinking two different beers honestly.

I do think i'd skip dry hops if i do another small beer like this. I might try that pilsner noted above by @monkeymath ...sounds interesting.

Edit: @monkeymath I'm going to double down on the carahell. I checked BSG and confirmed it is roasted. "Weyermann® CARAHELL® is a drum-roasted caramel malt made from two-row, German barley that delivers a fuller body, improved aroma, and increased beer foam while also contributing to a more fuller, rounder body and flavor." Weyermann® CARAHELL®

seems to be very in line with both the restaurant and brewery description
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No, carahell is not roasted, that is a translation error. Carahell is the lightest crystal malt available, so light that you might not detect it, even if used at 20% of the grist. It is not even fully converted. I brewed with it and I speak German, so honestly, it is almost like pilsener.
 
Miraculix said:
No, carahell is not roasted, that is a translation error. Carahell is the lightest crystal malt available, so light that you might not detect it, even if used at 20% of the grist. It is not even fully converted. I brewed with it and I speak German, so honestly, it is almost like pilsener.
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Having brewed with Carahell many times, I pretty much agree with your description (although it's about 10 Lovibond, a bit darker than pilsner at 2-ish), but are you absolutely sure it's not drum roasted? Drum roasting is a common way to make caramel malts, and any "color" of caramel malt can be made in a drum roaster.
 
VikeMan said:
Having brewed with Carahell many times, I pretty much agree with your description (although it's about 10 Lovibond, a bit darker than pilsner at 2-ish), but are you absolutely sure it's not drum roasted? Drum roasting is a common way to make caramel malts, and any "color" of caramel malt can be made in a drum roaster.
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Maybe it's for a short time in a type of drum at low temperature but the result is definitely not roasted in taste or colour. I think you could use it at 50% of the grist without any issue. I used it at 30% and was not really able to taste it.

Cara is a brand name for crystal malt and hell means light and that's what it is, a very light crystal malt which is only partially converted.
 
I often make 3%ish beers. Unlike most, I do low mash temps and very little spec malts, but I prefer dry beers. Have a 2.9% Berliner with philly sour in champagne bottles at the moment and just bottled a hoppy mild ale at 2.9%. Most of my tap beers are 3.5% blonde ales. Love them.
 
CaraHell was my initial guess; just the description as "roasted" seemed somewhat off to me. But it does have 20-30 EBC (quite a range, eh?), so maybe that's it.

Once I've used up my bag of Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner (which I don't care for all that much), I'll grab a bag of BEST Pilsner and some CaraHell and try my hands at this Schankbier.
 
For a low ABV session beer, try watering back a favorite lager or ale recipe with some store bought seltzer water for a taste test. Once you find something that tastes acceptable take your recipe and reduce it or tweak it accordingly.
IMG_1869.JPG
 
BeerFst said:
not sure on the foam yet....the sample i had a couple days ago was not fully carbed yet. Most of the foam i saw so far ended up on the basement floor last night, haha.

it didn't dissipate right away though, so it is promising, i think.

mouthfeel was kind of weird. Initially the mouthfeel was pretty great then the finish is quite dry. it's like drinking two different beers honestly.

I do think i'd skip dry hops if i do another small beer like this. I might try that pilsner noted above by @monkeymath ...sounds interesting.

Edit: @monkeymath I'm going to double down on the carahell. I checked BSG and confirmed it is roasted. "Weyermann® CARAHELL® is a drum-roasted caramel malt made from two-row, German barley that delivers a fuller body, improved aroma, and increased beer foam while also contributing to a more fuller, rounder body and flavor." Weyermann® CARAHELL®

seems to be very in line with both the restaurant and brewery description
Click to expand...
Update on the chobani beer.

after adding dme I charged the keg to 10 psi and tossed on the spund. Gauge quickly read 21 the following morning and stayed there. A day or two later I tried a sample and it was less but still pretty a little yogurt, more vanilla ish but not in a complimentary way.
It’s now been 11 days and it seems to have turned a corner significantly. There is still a vanilla to it but very light and now complimentary. The aroma is best described as Trix cereal milk, I think that might be the roast oat malt helping out there.

It’s been on the dry hops this whole time, not grassy at all.

Mouthfeel was also much better now, much more even throughout, where previously it was quite disjointed. Seems like it finishes less dry now it’s definitely the same or possible even a couple points lower fg.

I’m honestly kind of surprised, and my hopes for this beer have returned. I threw it in the keezer tonight so we’ll try again tomorrow when it’s cold.
 
So the beer is solid. It’s not my favorite, but it does exactly what I wanted, a beer that I don’t feel guilty of after having several bigger beers before it.

today I’ve had several lagunitas born yesterday’s and SN celebrations and the body isn’t that far off. I think it’s well more full than a founders all day for sure. It’s still a session beer though, it’s not like I’ve created the next great “nearly” non alcoholic beer or anything.

That vanilla thing is still slightly present but it’s not bad, the extra fermentation from the dme definitely helped out here. Perhaps if I tried krauseNing it would go away but I don’t think that’s worth it.

I really like the NZH 107 hops and I’d buy them again if northern brewer weren’t the only place to get them. I paid 10 ( I think) for a half pound and NB wants 22 or something silly for the same. The active ferm definitely dragged out some aroma but it’s still quite present but not the magic from the blowoff, much more generic fruitiness, not nearly as complex.

I also think the rye and oats only lend a weirdness to this Beer that makes it unfamiliar. It’s certainly close to many New England ipas but something is “off”. Again perhaps that’s the small amount of what might be diacetyl left but I really think it’s more to do with the grist.

I over carbed this one slightly but it works Wel with it.Tonight I hit a a weird thing with the keg and get a lot of foam. It was pouring fine yesterday. I think it’s just the over carb coming out of solution now I’ve reduced the head pressure or perhaps some gunk stuck somewhere.

I will definitely do the 165 mash again. That seems to work really well. I might consider bumping up the abv slightly which unfortunately means I’m probably above 1.030 on attempt 2. I’d also reduce the rye oats and replace with some barley. I’d also bump up the crystal. Not sure if I’d got darker but def more.

lastly I think I over did the hops. I don’t get burn, per se, but it does taste a little “green”. That said I think moving some whirlpool or even dry hop to more boil hops would help with future attempts.

head retention is okay. It’s dense at first but over the next few minutes it reduces significantly. It doesn’t disappear like a soda. I suppose having just poured another commercial beer, it faded similarly.

I think my next attempt at something like this will be over 1.030 but using the 165 mash temp would end up similar abv. I’d like to do a beer less hop focused, probably that lager I’ve commented on above
 
BeerFst said:
So the beer is solid. It’s not my favorite, but it does exactly what I wanted, a beer that I don’t feel guilty of after having several bigger beers before it.

today I’ve had several lagunitas born yesterday’s and SN celebrations and the body isn’t that far off. I think it’s well more full than a founders all day for sure. It’s still a session beer though, it’s not like I’ve created the next great “nearly” non alcoholic beer or anything.

That vanilla thing is still slightly present but it’s not bad, the extra fermentation from the dme definitely helped out here. Perhaps if I tried krauseNing it would go away but I don’t think that’s worth it.

I really like the NZH 107 hops and I’d buy them again if northern brewer weren’t the only place to get them. I paid 10 ( I think) for a half pound and NB wants 22 or something silly for the same. The active ferm definitely dragged out some aroma but it’s still quite present but not the magic from the blowoff, much more generic fruitiness, not nearly as complex.

I also think the rye and oats only lend a weirdness to this Beer that makes it unfamiliar. It’s certainly close to many New England ipas but something is “off”. Again perhaps that’s the small amount of what might be diacetyl left but I really think it’s more to do with the grist.

I over carbed this one slightly but it works Wel with it.Tonight I hit a a weird thing with the keg and get a lot of foam. It was pouring fine yesterday. I think it’s just the over carb coming out of solution now I’ve reduced the head pressure or perhaps some gunk stuck somewhere.

I will definitely do the 165 mash again. That seems to work really well. I might consider bumping up the abv slightly which unfortunately means I’m probably above 1.030 on attempt 2. I’d also reduce the rye oats and replace with some barley. I’d also bump up the crystal. Not sure if I’d got darker but def more.

lastly I think I over did the hops. I don’t get burn, per se, but it does taste a little “green”. That said I think moving some whirlpool or even dry hop to more boil hops would help with future attempts.

head retention is okay. It’s dense at first but over the next few minutes it reduces significantly. It doesn’t disappear like a soda. I suppose having just poured another commercial beer, it faded similarly.

I think my next attempt at something like this will be over 1.030 but using the 165 mash temp would end up similar abv. I’d like to do a beer less hop focused, probably that lager I’ve commented on above
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Thanks for the information. That sounds like there is some potential that just needs some fine-tuning!

I think my next beer might be low abv pseudo lager and I will try to focus on taste and body.

The yeast will be lutra. I know I might get into trouble regarding nutrients, but let's see. I won't remove any trub, that should help.

The grist will be something like 30% speltmalt, 30%carahell, 30% pale and 10% oats for the extra nutrients. I will do a single infusion mash at 73c and a mashout at 77c. Og 1.03.

That should result in a lot of body, let's see.
 
Some photos of the rye/oat beer. Shortly after pouring and 2-3 minutes (and a sip) later
 

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BeerFst said:
@monkeymath Article on BYO about Leichtbier came out this week. Seems to be exactly what we had been discussing back in October last year. All pilsner, 8oz carahell, saaz to bitter, 3-3.5%

https://byo.com/article/leichtbier-...-65385765&mc_cid=1e41a462b8&mc_eid=c275561c95
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Nice! Can't read the article, unfortunately, but I'll just take your word for it then ;)
I found another article on German Leichtbier here. Interestingly, the recipe given there uses half a pound of Victory malt, thereby cycling back on ourinitial guesswork whether the "roasted specialty malt" alluded to in the description of Surtaler Schankbier actually referred to a roasted malt such as Victory or rather a crystal malt like Carahell.

It'd be interesting to do a split batch - one with Victory, the other with Carahell - and compare side by side, but I only have one refridgerator. I have a Grätzer/Grodziskie coming up, which is also quite an interesting beer style with low alcohol, and then maybe I can persuade my brew buddy to make a light lager for spring time (although the so-called Starkbierzeit would call for stronger brews).

So much to brew, so little time.

EDIT: lol, just clicked on another article on the same site, namely this one, and Stan Hieronymus lists Schönram as one of his three favorite breweries:

https://beerandbrewing.com/critics-list-stan-hieronymuss-best-in-2019/ said:
Private Landbrauerei Schönram (Petting, Germany) I love Augustiner Helles and like the one from this brewery better. I was blown away by the quality and breadth of beers on offer at Brauerei Riegele when I could have them at the source in Augsburg, but I also knew I’d rather be drinking in Petting. That’s why Schönram is listed here. That and Surtaler Schankbier, a 3.5 percent beer that still has flavor after you drink an imperial stout.
Click to expand...

And, yeah, I agree. They have a great range of wonderful beers and have quickly become my favorite brewery except for producers of sour beers.
 
monkeymath said:
Nice! Can't read the article, unfortunately, but I'll just take your word for it then ;)
I found another article on German Leichtbier here. Interestingly, the recipe given there uses half a pound of Victory malt, thereby cycling back on ourinitial guesswork whether the "roasted specialty malt" alluded to in the description of Surtaler Schankbier actually referred to a roasted malt such as Victory or rather a crystal malt like Carahell.

It'd be interesting to do a split batch - one with Victory, the other with Carahell - and compare side by side, but I only have one refridgerator. I have a Grätzer/Grodziskie coming up, which is also quite an interesting beer style with low alcohol, and then maybe I can persuade my brew buddy to make a light lager for spring time (although the so-called Starkbierzeit would call for stronger brews).

So much to brew, so little time.

EDIT: lol, just clicked on another article on the same site, namely this one, and Stan Hieronymus lists Schönram as one of his three favorite breweries:



And, yeah, I agree. They have a great range of wonderful beers and have quickly become my favorite brewery except for producers of sour beers.
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Carahell basically tastes like pilsener malt. So if you want an effect on the taste, use something else.
 
Miraculix said:
Carahell basically tastes like pilsener malt. So if you want an effect on the taste, use something else.
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Yeah, I don't know, Helles also "basically tastes like pilsener malt", so I wouldn't dismiss it too quickly.
Not sure about Victory malt; the raw grain has a somewhat odd taste to my senses. (I also recently purchased a pound of Amber malt, which tastes like ashtray - not sure if I really want to put that in a beer).
 
monkeymath said:
Yeah, I don't know, Helles also "basically tastes like pilsener malt", so I wouldn't dismiss it too quickly.
Not sure about Victory malt; the raw grain has a somewhat odd taste to my senses. (I also recently purchased a pound of Amber malt, which tastes like ashtray - not sure if I really want to put that in a beer).
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I don't understand your post. What do you mean with "helles"?

I brewed with carahell, didn't do anything to my beer. I think I used it at 20% or so... Ben a while since then.
 
monkeymath said:
Sorry, I meant the beer style, as in "Bavarian Helles" or "Munich Helles".
(Saupreis, damischer :p (
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I still don't get it. Technically, Helles is just a low hopped pilsener and might be brewed with 100% pilsener malt, so yes, of course it tastes like pilsener malt. But helles has nothing to do with Carahell, although you might actually find it in a Helles as it doesn't bring much specific taste to the table and that's kind of what is wanted in a Helles.
 
Miraculix said:
I still don't get it. Technically, Helles is just a low hopped pilsener and might be brewed with 100% pilsener malt, so yes, of course it tastes like pilsener malt. But helles has nothing to do with Carahell, although you might actually find it in a Helles as it doesn't bring much specific taste to the table and that's kind of what is wanted in a Helles.
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The confusion ensues :D I'm sorry!

What I originally meant to say was:
These beers (Helles or also Leichtbier) taste like pilsner malt, so the fact that Carahell "tastes like pilsner malt" (as you posited) does not mean it couldn't be the right ingredient. The beer we were talking about (Surtaler Schankbier) does not have a distinct "non-pilsner malt" taste, so I'm rather hoping to boost the body, fullness and head retention without messing with the flavour profile of the base of pilsner malt.

I understand that you're saying one might as well use plain pilsner instead of Carahell - ok, fair. I'm not expecting it to be some sort of secret weapon that could magically transform a beer from mediocre to amazing. I don't believe such a thing exists.
 
shoreman said:
So I brewed an Oaty Mild yesterday that came in about 1.024 (off by .002) and setup a little blog to keep track of everything moving forward (I merged my other one in there as well). The recipe is on there.

Check it out: Small Homebrew - on a quest to brew the best beers under 3% (SG of 1.032 or less)
Click to expand...
I tried to check out your blog, but I got re-directed to a google chrome store that wanted me install some kind of security extension.
Is your blog still going and is there a better link? I'm not a computer geek so I usually don't install special software just to look at a blog, I supposed I'm paranoid about computer viruses.
 
There's no one way to build a Helles grain bill. But here's the best way. :D

PropIngredient
87.6%Weyermann Pilsner
9.7%Weyermann Munich II
2.7%Weyermann Carafoam
 
madscientist451 said:
I tried to check out your blog, but I got re-directed to a google chrome store that wanted me install some kind of security extension.
Is your blog still going and is there a better link? I'm not a computer geek so I usually don't install special software just to look at a blog, I supposed I'm paranoid about computer viruses.
Click to expand...

I got rid of that blog a while ago unfortunately- I just post on Instagram and keep a visual track of brews - see that in my signature
 

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