Stuck Fermentation- what to do? Pitch onto fresh yeast cake?

[losman26]

this topic has been covered many times, but not using oak chips in the secondary.

So I did an extract clone recipe, Firestone Walker, 'Lil Opal from BYO's, 250 classic clones edition. I did 3 weeks in the primary using Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison. I did a 1 L starter on a stir-plate and started out fermentation around 72 F, raising it as high as 80F. My original notes as far as gravity readings goes, got lost on my computer, but I'm pretty sure that the OG was around 1.052.

After three weeks I assumed that the SG would be good to transfer to the secondary. I took a brix reading using a refractometer and it read 11 brix, which seemed high at the moment. I also added 1 oz french oak wood chips (after SG reading) which were soaked in white wine for two weeks to the secondary. I drained the liquid from the wood chips before adding them.

1 day after adding the wood chips, I immediately started having an increase in co2 activity, and a small white-yellowish krausen developing. Two weeks later, nothing changed. Still 11 brix, and a 1..026 SG reading.
Considering that the yeast was fresh (about 2 weeks old), and I had a pretty vigorous fermentation, I'm absolutely stumped as to why there is such a high gravity reading after 5 weeks. The OG seems to low to not have a yeast attenuate properly for all the steps I did.

So what do I do next? By reading previous posts, it seems like I should transfer this batch onto a fresh yeast cake. I have another batch (lawnmower ale) using US-5 yeast that will be done in another week. Should I do it this way, or pitch some champagne yeast?

 

[beerman0001]

Can you please post the recipe so we can see what you where working with?

 

[hercher]

The oak chips shouldn't affect the performance of your yeast.

 

[Ddogsleezy]

When you checked the gravity after 3 weeks in the primary, it sounds like you did so using a refractometer. If that's the case, a refractometer will give you an inaccurate reading after fermentation has started. You need to use a hydrometer to obtain a good gravity reading. This might be part or all of your issue.

 

[Keyes88]

When you checked the gravity after 3 weeks in the primary, it sounds like you did so using a refractometer. If that's the case, a refractometer will give you an inaccurate reading after fermentation has started. You need to use a hydrometer to obtain a good gravity reading. This might be part or all of your issue.

^ What he said! I had the same issue once where I thought fermentation stalled and I went crazy coming up with ways to push my FG. I then read the refractometer can be off once alcohol is present so I checked my gravity with a hydrometer. I ended up taking a barleywine from 1.115 down to 10.08. I was not happy.

So check with a hydrometer, I'm sure you're fine!

 

[losman26]

Well, I lost my readings from the initial refractometer. Either way, when I transferred to the secondary it read 11 brix. Two weeks after transferring to the secondary it still read 11 brix, and the hydrometer reading was at 1.028. From what I remember, the inital refractometer reading was around 1.052 converting from brix to SG.


Here's the exact recipe. Plugging in the numbers to BeerSmith, I'm stumped as to why I have such a high SG, after 5 weeks. If anyone sees anything as to why it's so high, let me know.


Briess Golden Light Liquid Extract
3 lbs, 0 oz

Briess Golden Light Dry Extract
1 lbs, 8 oz

Weyermann Pale Wheat
1 lbs, 0 oz
Weyermann Caramel Wheat
0 lbs, 3 oz
Weyermann Acidulated
0 lbs, 3 oz
Mt. Hood Pellets
.54 oz @ 60 mins
Mt. Hood Pellets
.36 oz @ 30 mins
French Oak Chips
1 ea
Wyeast Labs Belgian Saison
1 ea

So I'm considering transferring this to a us-5 yeast cake next week to bring down the FG. What do you guys think?

 

[Keyes88]

Just to be clear, you used a hydrometer? I know how the conversion works from brix. We are asking bc once fermentation has started a refractometer can be significantlyinaccurate.

 

[Calder]

It will not hurt the beer to transfer to the S-05 cake.

If the fermentation is truly stuck (and it seems it may be), transferring to a fresh cake is one of the best things you can do to help it.

 

[michael.berta]

Not to beat a dead horse here but you have to physically use a hydrometer for FG readings. A refractomoter does not work in the presence of alcohol.

 

[losman26]

Just to be clear, you used a hydrometer? I know how the conversion works from brix. We are asking bc once fermentation has started a refractometer can be significantlyinaccurate.

YES, I did use a hyrdometer after I transferred, and because I couldn't find my notes that had the initial brix reading to plug in the numbers in the spreadsheet.

The Hydrometer sample was way too @ 1.026.

 

[losman26]

Not to beat a dead horse here but you have to physically use a hydrometer for FG readings. A refractomoter does not work in the presence of alcohol.

I did use a hydrometer after I transferred to the secondary. I had been using a refractometer for lower gravity brews using the morebeer spreadsheet. The problem was, that I lost my notes. Even so, the brix reading seemed way too high as compared to previous brews that I had done using a refractometer. At this point I pulled a hydro sample it came up 1.026

 

[Keyes88]

YES, I did use a hyrdometer after I transferred, and because I couldn't find my notes that had the initial brix reading to plug in the numbers in the spreadsheet.

The Hydrometer sample was way too @ 1.026.

I'd try that other yeast you mentioned or I would slowly heat and swirl it daily. It's been long enough that all the flavor is there so temp won't do anything bad. I'd put this in the warmest part of your house for a few days. As for swirling, be gentle! You can with rotate it from the top on it axis or take it and turn it in place to rouse the bottom. Do this or both for a week and I bet the gravity will start to come down.

 

[losman26]

I'd try that other yeast you mentioned or I would slowly heat and swirl it daily. It's been long enough that all the flavor is there so temp won't do anything bad. I'd put this in the warmest part of your house for a few days. As for swirling, be gentle! You can with rotate it from the top on it axis or take it and turn it in place to rouse the bottom. Do this or both for a week and I bet the gravity will start to come down.

I've already transferred to the secondary, so do you think that would still work? Also, I did have it in the 80's for a couple of weeks in the primary, which is why I'm stumped as to why the gravity is so high for a low gravity beer.

After I transferred to the secondary with the oak chips, I got some co2 activity, just like this photo. Now it seems to be thicker.

 

[beerman0001]

From the Wyeast web site.

This strain is notorious for a rapid and vigorous start to fermentation, only to stick around 1.035 S.G. Fermentation will finish, given time and warm temperatures. Warm fermentation temperatures at least 90°F (32°C) or the use of a secondary strain can accelerate attenuation.

Origin:
Flocculation: Low
Attenuation: 76-80%
Temperature Range: 70-95F, 21-35C
Alcohol Tolerance: 12% ABV


Styles:
Saison

 

[Keyes88]

From the Wyeast web site.

This strain is notorious for a rapid and vigorous start to fermentation, only to stick around 1.035 S.G. Fermentation will finish, given time and warm temperatures. Warm fermentation temperatures at least 90°F (32°C) or the use of a secondary strain can accelerate attenuation.

Origin:
Flocculation: Low
Attenuation: 76-80%
Temperature Range: 70-95F, 21-35C
Alcohol Tolerance: 12% ABV

Styles:
Saison

And that answers that. Combine everything said with your initial idea and you will be all set!

Good luck. Cheers!

 

[losman26]

Update

I pitched onto the US-5 yeast cake, and got some good co2 activity, and it seemed like fermentation restarted. After 5 days, I took a hydro reading and it is still at 1.028. Didn't move one bit, but I had a krausen going, and airlock was going good.

I'm not sure what else I could do. I could pitch another pack of the Wyeast Saison, but I'm not sure it would do anything.

I'm stumped on this one

 

[hercher]

Out of curiosity, have you calibrated your hydrometer?

 

[losman26]

Out of curiosity, have you calibrated your hydrometer?

Yes, it''s about 2 pts higher, so I'm at about 1.026 when this beer should be at 1.012 or 1.010

 

[Antler]

If you racked onto another yeast cake and nothing happened, I'd think pitching more yeast would be a waste of time. The airlock activity could have been degassing. Id bottle it and be curious forever lol

 

[losman26]

If you racked onto another yeast cake and nothing happened, I'd think pitching more yeast would be a waste of time. The airlock activity could have been degassing. Id bottle it and be curious forever lol

Even Champagne yeast would prob be a waste? I guess that I'm never gonna go with this Saison yeast ever again. I did a starter, increased the temps to the 80's, and the damn thing got stuck.

 

[onthedot]

I am so happy I read this thread.

My last 4 batches have had an undesirably FG. I couldn't figure it out - but reading this thread reminded me that you can't check FG with a refractometer! I used to know that fact, but it completely did not occur to me and I had been working on a fix. Good thing I didn't do anything yet, all FGs check out where they should with a hydrometer

 

[Antler]

Even Champagne yeast would prob be a waste? I guess that I'm never gonna go with this Saison yeast ever again. I did a starter, increased the temps to the 80's, and the damn thing got stuck.

Well you know the yeast were active, and they didn't just go dormant (you raised the temps) so I'd think they just ran our of fermentables, if this is the case I don't think any yeast will bring the gravity down anymore, but that's just my opinion.

 

[bluedog_Brewing]

I've been waiting for that same Saison yeast to reach FG on a batch but after 1 month it was at 1.028. I pitched champagne yeast a week and a half ago and its been bubbling away since. It has slowed down considerably in the last few days so I will check the SG again and see it the champagne yeast did the trick.

 

[Antler]

I've been waiting for that same Saison yeast to reach FG on a batch but after 1 month it was at 1.028. I pitched champagne yeast a week and a half ago and its been bubbling away since. It has slowed down considerably in the last few days so I will check the SG again and see it the champagne yeast did the trick.

Maybe it worked, maybe not. Again, airlock activity shouldn't be used as a sign of fermentation. The OP has already repitched some yeast, and the airlock became active but his gravity hasn't changed.

 

[bluedog_Brewing]

That's a good point about airlock activity. I hope you are wrong, for my beer's sake.

I will check SG this afternoon and let y'all know

 

[WiseEyes]

If you are desperate, in a pinch i have used amalyse enzyme blend to bring down the final gravity of a stuck fermentation after i determined that the yeast didn't poop out and the problem was lack of fermentables left. DONT USE BEANO it is not the same thing. The enzymes will start to break down the large chain molecules into smaller chain fermentables. The only problem is that you cannot control the break down and will need to monitor your beer with a hydrometer and when your desired gravity is reached cold crash to get the yeast to drop and keg force carb.

 

[Calder]

I've been waiting for that same Saison yeast to reach FG on a batch but after 1 month it was at 1.028. I pitched champagne yeast a week and a half ago and its been bubbling away since. It has slowed down considerably in the last few days so I will check the SG again and see it the champagne yeast did the trick.

I hope you report back your results. I would be interested in finding out what happens. Everything I have read indicates the Champagne will not do anything ...... but I don't have any experience.

 

[bluedog_Brewing]

I just checked the SG and it is at 1.008. The champagne yeast definitely finished it off. I will let it set a while longer to make sure its done so I don't get any bottle bombs but it looks done.

I think If I use this yeast again I will mix the champagne yeast into the starter and pitch it all at once. The Saison takes off fast and should contribute plenty of Belgian funk, and the champagne yeast will be working a bit more slowly in the background the whole time. Once the Saison craps out, champagne yeast will keep on trucking to FG. I've heard some people get amazing attenuation with only Wyeast 3724 but at higher temps. I didn't have any means of heating the carboy above the ambient in my closet (78-82F) which is a bit cool for this yeast, based on what I've read.

If anybody else is having trouble with this yeast and can't keep the temps in the high 80s to low 90s, consider using a pack of champagne yeast to finish it off.

 

[Calder]

I think If I use this yeast again I will mix the champagne yeast into the starter and pitch it all at once. The Saison takes off fast and should contribute plenty of Belgian funk, and the champagne yeast will be working a bit more slowly in the background the whole time. Once the Saison craps out, champagne yeast will keep on trucking to FG.

Thanks for the info.

FYI: Most wine yeasts are 'killer' yeasts. That is, they will dominate and kill beer yeasts. It might not be advisable pitching both together.