Stuck Dry Irish Stout - Options?

[Woodbrews]

Brewed an irish stout (10 lb pale Malt (2 Row) UK, 2lb Chocolate Malt, 2lb roasted barley, 2 lb Chocolate Malt, and 1 lb White Wheat Malt. Mashed at 156 steady, and ended with OG of 1.070. I pitched a single smack pack of Wyeast Irish Ale 1084, with no starter. which I now understand to be waaaay underpitched.


It's been nearly three weeks, and my final gravity is only down to 1.040, well below the target of .020.

ABV is only 3.94%; I was hoping for something closer to 5%.

Is it still possible to pitch additional yeast and restart fermentation? If so, what yeast?

 

[max384]

What temperature are you fermenting at? Depending upon the temp, I'd try raising the temperature before pitching more yeast.

 

[Woodbrews]

68 to 70F - ambient in my basement. If I raise the temp, how high do you recommend?

 

[cjones]

sorry to tell you, but there is more to this than meets the eye... let me try explain to help you and give u a few options to continue.

First the mash temp.... you are at the high range and that means more beta than alpha amylase were created during the enzyme conversion - beta is not fermentable so yeast will not eat them.

with that said you should see a higher FG more sugars left over - add with that under pitched and High Gravity, both not very conducing for yeast.

so 1084 yeast has an avg 73% attenuation - combine those together and you will have a very high FG -

Now one question I would ask that will also effect out come - did you oxygenate the crap out of it? - I would assume based on your readings that may have not been more than a couple shakes of the fermenter... but that asssssuning speaks for it self. (makes me an assssssss...)

so you have some options - depending on how much risk vs reward and what you consider reward

 

[verysupple]

Hmmm, something doesn't add up. If you had an OG of 1.070 and you want a beer of ~5% ABV then you're expecting it to finish at ~1.032. Hmmmm, that's not a very tasty Irish stout.

An Irish stout should start and finish a lot lower. OG something like 1.035 - 1.050 and FG something like 1.006 - 1.012. Yours looks a bit more like a foreign extra stout.

Anyway, style names and gravity expectations aside, one smack pack for such a high gravity beer in that batch size (from your grain bill I'm guessing 5 - 5.5 gal batch) simply isn't enough.

You certainly can pitch more yeast to try to get it finished. However, yeast don't like being dumped straight in to an alcoholic environment. The best thing to do is get a starter going and pitch it while it's nice and active. Good luck!

Happy brewing.

 

[MrAverageGuy]

Same thing happened to me with a similar recipe.....decided to pull a taste (awesome)...and repitched 1/2 packet of Nottingham, dissolved in 200 ml of wort. Went ahead and bottled it at 1.035....will know how it is around Thanksgiving...

 

[cjones]

now for options - even if you use the most extreme option - I would not expect FG to read any lower than 1.018.

option 1 - cheapest - leave it drink it. (taste it now and try and make a prediction as to what the co2 bite would do to change the flavor.) Also you can over carb and keep it ice cold to hide alot of flavor. (you can even throw some hops in there to try and hide some overwhelming flavors. so taste it and make a judgement call.

Option 2 - expensive - High risk/high reward
you can go buy some yeast nutrients and another pack of yeast, make a normal 1.040 starter - then aerate the crap out of the beer again, add the starter and add the yeast nutrients. bam you will get down to 1.018 maybe..

I have done both of these and had success with both.

last option is a balance between the both cost and reward. rack and save the yeast, make a starter with that yeast like a 3 liter starter - then re aerate and pitch. add yeast nutrients if you buy it or have it.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Brewed an irish stout (10 lb pale Malt (2 Row) UK, 2lb Chocolate Malt, 2lb roasted barley, 2 lb Chocolate Malt, and 1 lb White Wheat Malt.

You listed chocolate malt twice. What's your actual grainbill? You may have used way too much specialty grain.

 

[Woodbrews]

Thanks for the helpful replies. Actual target gravity for the recipe is 1.021 for an ABV of 6.53%. Actual grain bill was 10lb. pale 2-row (UK), 2lb chocolate malt, 2lb roasted barley, and 1lb white wheat malt for a total grain bill of 15lb. Target OG was 1.070, which is what I hit. Ended up with 5.25 gal. in the fermenter. Prior to pitching, I aerated with O2 for about 45 seconds, enough to nearly bubble over the carboy. But it was the first time I'd used a smack pack, and I'm not sure I broke open the yeast nutrient early enough. It was at room temperature, but I don't think I precisely followed the directions on the smack pack. That, and I underpitched by a lot, acc'd to my yeast calculation app.

 

[cjones]

are u using a aquarmium pump - if so 45 seconds is not very long - 1 min a gallon is usally the standard - if it starts to bubble over - your pushing air in at a fast rate - so let it settle and keep aerating - or slow the amount of air down. - also did the smack pack expand to where it was like a shaken soda bottle

 

[verysupple]

are u using a aquarmium pump - if so 45 seconds is not very long - 1 min a gallon is usally the standard - if it starts to bubble over - your pushing air in at a fast rate - so let it settle and keep aerating - or slow the amount of air down. - also did the smack pack expand to where it was like a shaken soda bottle

OP said in the previous post that O2 was used.

It's hard to know how much O2 is "right". 45 sec at a high enough flow rate might be fine. Everything sounds fine in terms of process except for the pitching rate. As previous posts, pitch some more active yeast and see if the gravity starts dropping again.

 

[Woodbrews]

are u using a aquarmium pump - if so 45 seconds is not very long - 1 min a gallon is usally the standard - if it starts to bubble over - your pushing air in at a fast rate - so let it settle and keep aerating - or slow the amount of air down. - also did the smack pack expand to where it was like a shaken soda bottle

No, used an O2 bottle. Good idea to let it settle down. No, the smack pack did not expand as expected, likely due to user error.

 

[dwhite60]

2 lbs of chocolate and 2 lbs of roast barley isn't helping you. What was your mash ph? What was you wort ph at pitching? Yeah, most of us don't know. I never check mine.

I expect you may have created a somewhat unfriendly environment for your yeast ph wise.

All the Best,
D. Whtie

 

[chickypad]

Just to confirm as I didn't see it asked, this is a reading with hydrometer not refractometer, right?

You could try pitching an active starter of a high attenuating yeast but it sounds like it may be more of a problem with too many unfermentable sugars given the crap ton of dark roasted malt plus the higher mash temp. There are those who've had success with amylase enzyme, such as here. How does it taste, BTW? Next time I'd use about 1/3 the amount of dark roasted malts.

 

[KeninMN]

Just to confirm as I didn't see it asked, this is a reading with hydrometer not refractometer, right?

You could try pitching an active starter of a high attenuating yeast but it sounds like it may be more of a problem with too many unfermentable sugars given the crap ton of dark roasted malt plus the higher mash temp. There are those who've had success with amylase enzyme, such as here. How does it taste, BTW? Next time I'd use about 1/3 the amount of dark roasted malts.

I agree, check you measurement system before you do anything. If you did measure FG with a hydrometer, verify that your hydrometer isn't damaged. That, said, the title says it all: Dry Irish Stout. You mashed higher than is recommended for a Dry Irish Shout. Even the clone recipes for Foreign Extra Stout only mash at 153 F.

 

[VT-NAV]

With 2 pounds of chocolate malt and 2 pounds of roast barley, your calculated SRM is through the roof. About 27% of your grain bill is dark roasted malts. I suspect that even if you reached your desired FG, the beer would be near-undrinkable. Overpoweringly roasty and astringent would be my guess.

 

[Gavin C]

Brewed an irish stout (10 lb pale Malt (2 Row) UK, 2lb Chocolate Malt, 2lb roasted barley, 2 lb Chocolate Malt, and 1 lb White Wheat Malt. Mashed at 156 steady, and ended with OG of 1.070. I pitched a single smack pack of Wyeast Irish Ale 1084, with no starter. which I now understand to be waaaay underpitched.


It's been nearly three weeks, and my final gravity is only down to 1.040, well below the target of .020.

ABV is only 3.94%; I was hoping for something closer to 5%.

Is it still possible to pitch additional yeast and restart fermentation? If so, what yeast?

Hydrometer or refractometer?

If refractometer, all is well. Just plug the reading into the appropriate calculator. PAckage the beer as per your regular plan.

If hydrometer reading add some amylase. This thread covers the topic well.

You've gotten some good advice and some very bad advice related to mash chemistry in the thread so far.

Mash at 156F seems well in line for a stout. Yes your recipe is not consistent with that of a dry Irish stout and yes you've under-pitched and fermented warm. Your oxygenation sounds good.

Adding yeast is highly unlikely to do anything, there are already trillions in suspension.

Agitating the carboy is not going to be of any use.

Warming it more not a good idea as it was already fermented warm.

You need to add amylase to the wort to cleave the unfermentable long-chain dextrins into simpler lower molecular weight fermentable sugars like maltose. The yeast are plentiful and will do their thing.

Again. If the reading was with a refractometer this is all moot and your beer is fine.

 

[Gavin C]

First the mash temp.... you are at the high range and that means more beta than alpha amylase were created during the enzyme conversion - beta is not fermentable so yeast will not eat them.

I would suggest you explore the science behind the theory of mashing more. This statement is incorrect for a number of reasons. Both alpha and beta amylase are enzymes. They are not fermentable, nor are they produced by the brewer.
Both ezymes have different optimal temperature ranges at which they can best perform.

then aerate the crap out of the beer again,

OP: Do not do this, it will completely oxygenate the beer rendering it undrinkable regardless of whatever else you do.

are u using a aquarmium pump - if so 45 seconds is not very long - 1 min a gallon is usally the standard

Aeration will never get you over 8ppm O2. The OP stated he used oxygen. There is no standard time one should aerate for as far as I know. I'd be interested to see where you get the 60 seconds/gallon of aeration as a standard from.

Overall, you are dispensing some very bad advice in this thread. Advice is great and a massive part of HBT, but it's best to do one's homework if your going to dispense it. Just a thought.

 

[Woodbrews]

My gravity reading was done with a hydrometer, although my OG (post-boil) reading was done with a refractometer. I will read up on the amylase thread -- thanks for the link.

- Ken

 

[chickypad]

Mash at 156F seems well in line for a stout. Yes your recipe is not consistent with that of a dry Irish stout and yes you've under-pitched and fermented warm. Your oxygenation sounds good.

A dry Irish stout, though? Personally I think 156* is kinda high, but looks like we are in agreement otherwise. OP be sure to post the results if you try the amylase.

 

[cjones]

try experimenting once in awhile you could learn something new

 

[Gavin C]

A dry Irish stout, though? Personally I think 156* is kinda high, but looks like we are in agreement otherwise. OP be sure to post the results if you try the amylase.

Yeah. I agree a bit high for a dry irish stout but that is not what the recipe could realistically have produced given the batch size and grain-bill. The Dry Stout name can largely be discounted I think.

 

[verysupple]

Ha, I find it really funny that people are all worked up about mashing too hot for a dry stout but not at all fussed that the OG was approx. double what it should have been for a dry stout. If you're going to worry about sticking to style, surely getting the OG in the ball park is a far more important target than getting the mash temp right. I mean, yeah, the mash temp will affect the body, but nowhere as much as starting off with twice as much extract.

Sorry OP, that wasn't at all helpful, but I just find it funny when people get hung up on one idea and miss the big picture.

Happy brewing.

 

[max384]

Ha, I find it really funny that people are all worked up about mashing too hot for a dry stout but not at all fussed that the OG was approx. double what it should have been for a dry stout. If you're going to worry about sticking to style, surely getting the OG in the ball park is a far more important target than getting the mash temp right. I mean, yeah, the mash temp will affect the body, but nowhere as much as starting off with twice as much extract.

Sorry OP, that wasn't at all helpful, but I just find it funny when people get hung up on one idea and miss the big picture.

Happy brewing.

I think you may be the one missing the big picture. Mashing at too high of a temperature can lead to longer chain carbs that won't be broken down by yeast. This leads to a fuller body beer with a higher FG. Thus, it would make sense for people to question the high mash temp when the OP is concerned about the FG being too high.

I don't think that is the only variable that comes into play here, as has been pointed out, but it's certainly appropriate to question the mash temperature without being as concerned about the OG.

 

[chickypad]

I think we're all agreed the recipe is the biggest issue. I was just explaining/clarifying my reasoning with mash temp advice, given the comment that there is bad advice being thrown around. I certainly agree that it is probably a small component of the overall issue for the OP.

 

[GuldTuborg]

156f mash is fine for a dry stout, going by the usual numbers. This is a high gravity, very high roasted malt %, high mashed stout. It's going to be not at all like a typical dry stout when done. I expect it to finish very high. Maybe not 1.040, but definitely high. I don't know what can reasonably be done to save it - the damage was done with the recipe itself.

 

[iijakii]

Try some amylase enzyme in and see what happens. I think with that recipe you're going to have a real goldilocks situation though. Too high of FG and it's too sweet. Too low and it's acrid. Maybe now it's a decent dessert beer?

 

[passedpawn]

Try some amylase enzyme in and see what happens. I think with that recipe you're going to have a real goldilocks situation though. Too high of FG and it's too sweet. Too low and it's acrid. Maybe now it's a decent dessert beer?

Cascadian Dark Ale Dryhop with some Centennial and amylase.

 

[cjones]

everybody's a critic - everybody has an opinion - some on here are sticklers (unable to think for them selfs, experiment, or go off book for there own answers) they believe after a few articles and books and a couple biab brews from pre made recipes they know all there is to know. even if they have never experienced it.

I personally am the opposite - I commend your choice in creating your own recipe. I think you will learn alot from this brew, and be much better off on your next one.

 

[max384]

everybody's a critic - everybody has an opinion - some on here are sticklers (unable to think for them selfs, experiment, or go off book for there own answers) they believe after a few articles and books and a couple biab brews from pre made recipes they know all there is to know. even if they have never experienced it.

I personally am the opposite - I commend your choice in creating your own recipe. I think you will learn alot from this brew, and be much better off on your next one.

Who gave him a hard time for making his own recipe? He asked for advice, and the overwhelming advice was that his recipe was to blame for his problem. Nobody said he can't or shouldn't make his own recipe, they just pointed out that this particular recipe had some issues, and these issues likely led to the problem that compelled him to create this thread in the first place. I don't think many here will disagree with you that the OP will learn a lot from this brew... I'm just a bit dumbfounded as to your angry reply here.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Max nailed it. There's no hate here. Maybe some "well of course that's what you got," but no hate at all.

 

[Woodbrews]

Can you guys be a little more specific about what's wrong with the recipe? Regardless of the target style, what exactly is wrong with the recipe?
10 lbs. pale malt (UK)
2 lbs. chocolate malt
2 lbs. roasted barley
1 lb. white wheat malt
2 oz. Goldings at 60 min.
2 oz. Goldings at 15 min.
Yeast was Wyeast Irish Ale 1084

For the record, I found this recipe online and did not design it myself. But if I'm going to learn something from this brew, I need more specificity about the problems you see with the recipe.

Thanks, OP.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Sure, but first off, what were you hoping this would turn out like? Like a Guiness, or something else?

The only real issue for most would be the huge % of roasted grains, but all the other potential issues depend on what you wanted out of it.

 

[Gavin C]

Can you guys be a little more specific about what's wrong with the recipe? Regardless of the target style, what exactly is wrong with the recipe?
10 lbs. pale malt (UK)
2 lbs. chocolate malt
2 lbs. roasted barley
1 lb. white wheat malt
2 oz. Goldings at 60 min.
2 oz. Goldings at 15 min.
Yeast was Wyeast Irish Ale 1084

For the record, I found this recipe online and did not design it myself. But if I'm going to learn something from this brew, I need more specificity about the problems you see with the recipe.

Thanks, OP.

26% Roasted grains is a lot. That would be my primary concern with the recipe. A very harsh and bitter tasting beer is likely. It's hard to know what recipes are good and which are not when starting out. After a while you'll know what to look for in various styles you enjoy making or drinking.

 

[cjones]

36% Roasted grains is a lot. That would be my primary concern with the recipe. A very harsh and bitter tasting beer is likely. It's hard to know what recipes are good and which are not when starting out. After a while you'll know what to look for in various styles you enjoy making or drinking.

Have you ever tried this recipe - or one like similar in grain bill percentages? how do you know it would likely be harsh and bitter - might be super sweet and heavy on the mouth.

 

[passedpawn]

Have you ever tried this recipe - or one like similar in grain bill percentages? how do you know it would likely be harsh and bitter - might be super sweet and heavy on the mouth.

If it doesn't attenuate it'll be sweet! OP's got to get that one figured out.

This is a discussion forum. We all give advice based on our experiences. Opinions are going to be all over the place, so the best we can hope for is a lot of replies, and the consensus will rise to the top. That's all I see going on here.

If this thread was only open to people who have brewed that exact beer, it would be pretty lonely in here

 

[Homercidal]

Firstly, it's NOT an Irish stout. Not a DRY Irish stout anyway. It's OG is way too high. It might be a really nice stout in the end, but I doubt it would fall into the dry category unless some unusual measures were taken (Amylase Enzyme added, or maybe a champagne yeast).

IMO you are using too much roasted malt. My experience, and probably the experience of many others, is that you gain a lot of harsh roast bitterness when you add too much dark roasted malts. No experimentation is necessary to find this out; it's been documented many times before. Unless you change something else to counteract this, you are not going to achieve a different result.

Also, 4 lbs of roast malt, out of a TOTAL of 15 lbs of malt, is only 26%, not 36%. That's still a bit high but not incredibly high. I think most stout recipes prefer to be in the 10-20% range, but that really depends on the particular roast malt. Some are more roasty than others.

I'm going to have to agree with Gavin's advice to NOT aerate the wort again. There is no guarantee that the yeast will pick up all of the oxygen now. They've budded out and are likely not going to be able to use all of the oxygen with the food left to consume.

The OG was very high for a dry stout. When you consider the potential attentuation of the yeast, at the percentage given you will end up with a higher FG. Again, I'd recommend a different yeast. One that has a higher attenuation rate, and higher alcohol tolerance. Do a small starter to get them used to the alcohol level, and pitch that.

Or try Amylase Enzyme. They are quite good at chopping up the longer sugars, making it available for the yeast to eat. Not a lot of people use it, so you would be performing a bit of experimentation here. But you might even end up with a high alcohol version of a Dry Stout. An Imperial Dry Stout, if you will.

 

[max384]

Can you guys be a little more specific about what's wrong with the recipe? Regardless of the target style, what exactly is wrong with the recipe?
10 lbs. pale malt (UK)
2 lbs. chocolate malt
2 lbs. roasted barley
1 lb. white wheat malt
2 oz. Goldings at 60 min.
2 oz. Goldings at 15 min.
Yeast was Wyeast Irish Ale 1084

For the record, I found this recipe online and did not design it myself. But if I'm going to learn something from this brew, I need more specificity about the problems you see with the recipe.

Thanks, OP.

As was already said, the OG is too high, and the dark grain bill is really high (though, that can simply be personal preference, too) for a dry Irish stout. With all of the dark roasted grains, you're already going to have a tough time getting the yeast to chew through it to get to a low enough FG to make it dry. In addition, the high mash temperature will further lead to a fuller body and less dryness. For most stouts, a high mash temp is preferred. However, if you want a dry stout, you want the mash temp lower so that you will have more beta amylase activity, which will dry it out.

 

[Woodbrews]

I added 2 tsp. of amylase enzyme last night (5 gal. batch) and saw activity this morning. I'll test the gravity tonight and again each night until it is stable. I'll also give it a taste and report my findings. Thanks for the info about the recipe -- this hobby is all about learning experiences!

 

[JKaranka]

Can you guys be a little more specific about what's wrong with the recipe? Regardless of the target style, what exactly is wrong with the recipe?
10 lbs. pale malt (UK)
2 lbs. chocolate malt
2 lbs. roasted barley
1 lb. white wheat malt
2 oz. Goldings at 60 min.
2 oz. Goldings at 15 min.
Yeast was Wyeast Irish Ale 1084

For the record, I found this recipe online and did not design it myself. But if I'm going to learn something from this brew, I need more specificity about the problems you see with the recipe.

Thanks, OP.

The OG is fairly standard for what used to be a regular stout quite a while ago. If you were rebreweing I'd drop the roast malts to 2lb total and up the pale malt (consider adding some Brown malt). Mash a few degrees lower. Otherwise it all looks ok.

You might have got into something funny going on with pH with that amount of roast malts. You might have had some bad luck with the yeast packing early. Who knows. It's kind of hard to point at any single cause, so you might as well drink it and brew another one to see what happens.