Not sure. But I can tell you for sure, Belle Saison will unstick any stuck fermentation... ESPECIALLY a Belgian style.Would distiller's yeast work? Is that a diastaticus yeast? I have a stuck Belgian Quad I need to figure out.
Stuck Fermentation on Really Big Imperial Stout
- Thread starter flow415
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Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
That's like asking if brewer's yeast is diastaticus - some are, some aren't, distillers use a whole range of different yeasts.
can you expand upon that? I have a very high OG RIS that I fear may be hung up.
and I have harvested Belle Saison yeast slurry on hand.
Belle Saison yeast is just about the most diastaticus diastaticus yeast there is. This means it is able to eat more sugars than most other yeasts. Attenuation will be close to 95% no matter what sugars you throw at it, except lactose, it can’t eat that one.
It might.
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Alan Reginato
Well-Known Member
As @dmtaylor said, it might, but doesn't mean it always does.
Depends on some factors. Mash temp and grist composition. I usually brew with saison yeast and the only really high attenuation I got was last brew. Was a 100% pale ale, but at finner grind. FG was 1.000. With that kind of malt, at coarse grind, usually got 85% of attenuation. In dark beers, 80%. So, I don't think it will eat it up, with a standard mash temp and normal grain grinding.
BTW, I certainly would give a try with saison yeast.
Depends on some factors. Mash temp and grist composition. I usually brew with saison yeast and the only really high attenuation I got was last brew. Was a 100% pale ale, but at finner grind. FG was 1.000. With that kind of malt, at coarse grind, usually got 85% of attenuation. In dark beers, 80%. So, I don't think it will eat it up, with a standard mash temp and normal grain grinding.
BTW, I certainly would give a try with saison yeast.
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@hotbeer and @Alan Reginato
I've edited and deleted a few of your last posts as it seemed to revolve over a simple misunderstanding.
Please be respectful to each other!
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gewehr43sniper
Active Member
I would try lalvin ec-1118 yeast from amazon, it should kick off another fermentation and its cheap
G_robertus
Well-Known Member
I would be very careful with that. Most wine yeasts cannot ferment complex sugars, but are killer strains. Opinions online seem to differ and I've yet to test this myself, but I wouldn't put my money on it. If it fails to ferment and you have an active kill factor in your beer only other killer positive or neutral strains have any chance of continuing fermentation.
That said, my record with adding more yeast is very poor so I tend to just go with what I end up with and take note for next time. Saison or Brettanomyces might still work though.
VikeMan
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I don't know who originally recommended "champagne" yeast as a generic solution for stuck beer fermentations, but I wish they wouldn't have.
EC-1118 doesn't eat maltotriose and is bad as eating maltose. It's not going to cure a stuck beer fermentation. The same applies to most wine/champagne strains.
Lalvin K1V-1116 is an exception, and might be worth trying if this beer was (and still is) stuck. I note that OP hasn't posted since @passedpawn suggested measuring gravity again, 15 days ago.
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Bluntsworth
Member
Wonderful! I will try that.
I'm currently mulling over adding some Belgian candi syrup. I'm thining the extra alcohol will help balance out the extra sugars that wont ferment. OG was 1.095 and current is 1.030. It is pretty sweet still.
Also wondering if I will need to keg and force carbonate to avoid the risk of no bottle fermentation and flat beer. Any thoughts?
Note: I have a sample currently experimenting on to the side. 200ml sample @ 1.030. Added A-Amylase and rested at 70c for a like a half hour then added a bit of the yeast from the batch in the fermentor (trub from the bottom). Nothing happening yet (24 hours). Going to add some candi sugar to this sample and see what happens.
Thanks for the help.
These are all good ideas. I have done all the same things in various capacities in different batches over the years. The candi syrup thing is both as traditional as it is a band-aid for not being able to make a more highly fermentable wort. The keg & force carb idea is excellent, as I have experienced poor or unpredictable carbonation in bottled beers like this. And the amylase *might* help, hard to say... if it works, it might take a few weeks.
Bluntsworth
Member
Thanks so much!! Bought some Belle Saison, put it in my side sample. and it is taking off after like 12 hours. I'm gonna see where this sample ends up on FG and if it's good, pitch it in the whole batch!
Note: Took a sample from the stuck wort (1.030), added candi sugar to OG of 1.060. If it gets to 1.015 (my initial target), will pitch into the fermentor. Yeast is working very well. Will taste also to make sure it's not too bone dry, but at this point, I'd prefer dry to overly sweet.
OP
OP
flow415
Member
Hey guys,
Thanks so much for all the info. So just to give everyone an update, here's what's going on. I was stuck at 1.070 for the longest time. I added the alpha amylase, waited over a week, pitched WLP099 and after a day or so, saw a few bubbles from the airlock but that was it. The WLP099 I got was shipped from morebeer.com (not in ice) and when I created the starter for it, it never really took off and I didn't see any krausen even after waiting 3 days (on a stir plate). I should've took a before and after reading from the starter but I didn't. After all that, my beer is still sitting at 1.070 and it's quite sweet. The funny thing is, because it's been sitting so long, it actually tastes quite refined if that makes sense. Haha.
At this point, my next step is to go with the Belle Saison as recommended. I'll report back and give you guys an update.
Thanks so much for all the info. So just to give everyone an update, here's what's going on. I was stuck at 1.070 for the longest time. I added the alpha amylase, waited over a week, pitched WLP099 and after a day or so, saw a few bubbles from the airlock but that was it. The WLP099 I got was shipped from morebeer.com (not in ice) and when I created the starter for it, it never really took off and I didn't see any krausen even after waiting 3 days (on a stir plate). I should've took a before and after reading from the starter but I didn't. After all that, my beer is still sitting at 1.070 and it's quite sweet. The funny thing is, because it's been sitting so long, it actually tastes quite refined if that makes sense. Haha.
At this point, my next step is to go with the Belle Saison as recommended. I'll report back and give you guys an update.
Bluntsworth
Member
The sample went from 1.060 to 1.010! Pitched the Belle Saison into the 5 gal fermenter, after a week it got from 1.030 to 1.024, so a little improvement. I didn't do a starter with it. Will do that next time. Last thing I'm gonna do is add 1.5 teaspoons of A-Amylase to the 5 gal bucket, stir it around a bit, and see if it bubbles after a week or so. If not, I'll take what I can get. Wont be too bad at 9.8% ABV, but would like it to get up to the desired target.
You don't need more amylase with Belle Saison in there. All you need is more time. Belle Saison takes about 3.5 weeks to complete fermentation in my experience. One or two weeks is not enough. Just be patient with it and it will finish much lower.
Well my RIS is definitely stuck around 1.050-1.055 after fermenting since mid December. OG was about 1.130 and I used US-05
How much Belle Saison should I throw at it? I have about 1/2 cup of tight yeast cake in a mason jar.
17# 2 row
2# roasted barley
10oz black malt
1# chocolate malt
2# oats
11oz dark DME
1# lactose
2# maple syrup
3oz cacao powder
3oz cacao nibs
3oz ground coffee
How much Belle Saison should I throw at it? I have about 1/2 cup of tight yeast cake in a mason jar.
17# 2 row
2# roasted barley
10oz black malt
1# chocolate malt
2# oats
11oz dark DME
1# lactose
2# maple syrup
3oz cacao powder
3oz cacao nibs
3oz ground coffee
You're "stuck" at 10.5% ABV? How much lower were you hoping to go? Are you worried that Belle Saison will change the character of a RIS too much? Maybe just try something with a higher alcohol tolerance before you pull out and nuke it from orbit?
OP
OP
flow415
Member
Well guys, looks like nothing happened even after adding that alpha amylase, waiting a couple weeks and then adding the Belle Saison yeast... not sure wtf's going on at this point. I'm assuming there's still a lot of non digestible sugars in there. Any other suggestions? It's really sweet. I may end up just following through with the rest of my recipe of adding cacao nibs, toasted marshmallow extract and then kegging it. It's definitely going to be a really sweet 8.5% stout.
Yes: Enjoy it for what it is.
Add your marshmallow extract, cacao, vanilla, whatever you see fit.
Perhaps put a bottle of Bourbon next to the tap or on the drip tray. Raising the alcohol a tad that way, plus adding its flavor, can make all the difference.
Not surprised that the alpha amylase didn't do anything, but how did you pitch the Belle Saison? You've got a very inhospitable environment there. It's not going to be easy for any yeast to establish a foothold.
Or maybe make the extracts with REALLY high proof liquor and raise the alcohol that way.
Holy moly, that's really stuck. *shrug* I was sure Belle would work. I was wrong.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Cut it with another wort, give the bugs something a bit easier to digest? Or cut it with another beer that's fully fermented out.
InspectorJon
Well-Known Member
I have a imperial stout that turned out sweeter and thicker than I prefer. I have been mixing it 50/50 with another lower gravity stout I made recently. The blended beer is pretty good. Its in bottles so I end up with 22 oz or so pour using two 12 oz bottles. The first one is around 11% and the second is 6.5% so I guess that ends up close to 9% blended. One is enough for me.
It's time to brew some yellow beer but I have to work through all this dark beer I made last fall and winter.
It's time to brew some yellow beer but I have to work through all this dark beer I made last fall and winter.
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Well, I made a starter with some saved Belle Saison yeast cake.
Pitched into my RIS and also a Choc PB stout that both finished higher than expected.
The Choc PB has dropped a bit more. Not much but has moved down a couple/few points.
But the RIS will not budge.
Perhaps try some of that Vevik yeast? Or is this thing done?
Pitched into my RIS and also a Choc PB stout that both finished higher than expected.
The Choc PB has dropped a bit more. Not much but has moved down a couple/few points.
But the RIS will not budge.
Perhaps try some of that Vevik yeast? Or is this thing done?
Pull out and nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
It doesn't look like you're going to get it to do anything else at this point.
It doesn't look like you're going to get it to do anything else at this point.
elaborate...nuke it with what? Kevik? White Labs high gravity yeast? Lalvin ec-1118? Lalvin K1V-1116?
Belle didn't appear to have any affect on the RIS. Well how long should I wait on the Belle Saison? It's been almost 2 weeks.
Sorry, it was just a joke. I could be wrong, but ISTM that if Belle Saison couldn't touch it in two weeks nothing else will do anything either.
"Gluke" it...with glucoamylase enzyme. It'll definitely move the needle, but maybe way more than desired...
Cheers!
Cheers!
Yeah, if that works you'll wind up with a bone dry 17% ABV beer (OG was 1.130, right?). Definitely global thermonuclear conflict territory.
well crap...wanted around 13-14%...but not pure alcohol.
If I did try that stuff I guess I would have to check gravity constantly and cold crash it before it's too late.
InspectorJon
Well-Known Member
I think it’s done. From what I understand, a lot of those awesome, expensive aged imperial stouts are blended like wine because each ferment on theses big stouts can end up different. Let it age while you make something else to blend it with.
I have a year old imperial stout that turned out too thick and sweet. It’s pretty awesome blend with a dryer, hoppyer stout I made in February.
I have a year old imperial stout that turned out too thick and sweet. It’s pretty awesome blend with a dryer, hoppyer stout I made in February.
InspectorJon
Well-Known Member
Cold crashing will not stop Gluco. It will slow it down but won’t stop it. Only heat will stop it. It doesn’t get used up. It just keeps working until there is nothing left to convert.
Cold crashing will stop the yeast (assuming that the gluco gets the yeast to start up again). But yeah you will lose all of the dextrins so it really won't be an imperial stout anymore.
Bluntsworth
Member
I put some A-Amylase in a stuck Belgian Quad. It works! It took mine from overly sweet 9.8% to a-little-too-sweet 10.5%. SO there were still some unfermented sugars left by the amylase, hence, there is still body to the beer. I bottle aged last month and just cracked one to make sure it's carbonating ok, and it turned out not too sweet and actually quite good overall.
My suggestion: Add a little A-Amylase at a time, and wait. Check the gravity, if it's still too low, add some more and wait some more. I kept mine like this in the fermenter for months without any off flavors from sitting on the yeast too long. But mine is a Belgian, so the esters are kinda desirable.
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