Stout Water Profile

[marchuk96]

Sup all...looking for some feedback on a stout I will be brewing soon...I feel pretty good about the grain bill and I have a water profile set for it...attached is the grain bill and water profile...any feedback is more than welcome..thanks

 

[Jag75]

Just curious about your water profile. The section of existing water profile has 0's across the board . The section of diluted water either RO or DI says 0? are you using all DI water ?

have you made this before ? 1# of barley seems like a lot.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I can't see those pictures. Any way to upload better pictures? Maybe just a screen shot of the Bru'n Water page?

 

[Rob2010SS]

Just curious about your water profile. The section of existing water profile has 0's across the board . The section of diluted water either RO or DI says 0? are you using all DI water ?

have you made this before ? 1# of barley seems like a lot.

1# isn't that much. My first RIS had 1.5# of black barley in it and it wasn't overpowering.

 

[marchuk96]

Just curious about your water profile. The section of existing water profile has 0's across the board . The section of diluted water either RO or DI says 0? are you using all DI water ?

have you made this before ? 1# of barley seems like a lot.

Using 100% distilled water...I haven't made this particular recipe before but have made a stout before...in my last one I actually used 2 lbs roasted barley...it came off real roasty which wasn't a bad thing but I wanted to cut back on roast this time and have more chocolate notes come forward

 

[marchuk96]

I can't see those pictures. Any way to upload better pictures? Maybe just a screen shot of the Bru'n Water page?

Will screen shot later when I'm at computer...sorry bout that

 

[Jag75]

Using 100% distilled water...I haven't made this particular recipe before but have made a stout before...in my last one I actually used 2 lbs roasted barley...it came off real roasty which wasn't a bad thing but I wanted to cut back on roast this time and have more chocolate notes come forward

I was just curious because it showed 0 dilution on your screen shot , but you had the acids and salt amounts down .should come out really nice .

 

[marchuk96]

Here are the same pics screen shotted from my computer...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It's still very hard to read, but if I'm seeing it correctly, 15.2 grams of baking soda seems like quite a lot for a nominally 5.5 gallon batch.

 

[marchuk96]

It's still very hard to read, but if I'm seeing it correctly, 15.2 grams of baking soda seems like quite a lot for a nominally 5.5 gallon batch.

It does but in order to meet the criteria of a stout profile with just the salts the ph is way off and needs to be balanced out ..hence the large baking soda addition..its the only thing I have available to raise the ph back into acceptable range...

 

[Rev2010]

1. You have Victory listed as a base grain but at 28L should be a Crystal.
2. You have 9 different grains in the bill. Definitely does not need to be so complex
3. You have three crystal malts in there at over 20% total of the grain bill. I'd suggest ditching one. The CaraAmber and Victory are probably similar so ditch one.
4. Seriously fix your mineral adjustments. Get rid of all that baking soda, you are at 427ppm bicarbonate! Bring it down to a reasonable number here. Same goes for your sodium and chloride levels, reduce both of them. Not sure if you're really trying to use the London profile for your stout, but even if you are you can see your mashing water profile numbers are way high.


Rev.

 

[Rev2010]

hence the large baking soda addition..its the only thing I have available to raise the ph back into acceptable range...

Order slaked lime on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074B8F2BP/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Be aware, use gloves when handling it as skin contact can cause burns. Also don't send the powder airborne as it can burn the throat and eyes if contacted/inhaled.


Rev.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Victory is not a crystal malt. It is a toasted specialty malt. It is not as acidic as a 28L Caramel/Crystal malt would be. But I do not know what level of acidity BW might assign to either of them, so whichever malt class selection yields the higher mash pH is the one I would settle upon if given no other choice.

I calculate 15.2 grams of baking soda in 5.85 gallons of water at roughly 408 ppm Alkalinity and roughly 497 ppm bicarbonate.

I would love to see the 30 and 60 minute mash pH results for this one.

 

[Brettomomyces]

15.2g of NaOH is going to add a lot of sodium...I would use calcium carbonate

 

[Rev2010]

Victory is not a crystal malt. It is a toasted specialty malt. It is not as acidic as a 28L Caramel/Crystal malt would be.

I wasn't in any way trying to comment on it's acidity in the mash. Just that he has an overly complex grain bill and that he has a bit much of crystal/specialty malts.


Rev.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I just tried several free versions of BW in the very latest stable LibreOffice Calc 6.2, and it doesn't work. Worked in LibreOffice 6.0. Be wary of updating LibreOffice from version 6.0 to 6.2.

 

[mabrungard]

The Libre website does say that 6.2 is an Early Adopter version. I'm guessing that its not quite ready for prime time.

 

[marchuk96]

The Libre website does say that 6.2 is an Early Adopter version. I'm guessing that its not quite ready for prime time.

If I could possibly get you expertise on the water and heck even the recipe.. I would really appreciate it

 

[marchuk96]

1. You have Victory listed as a base grain but at 28L should be a Crystal.
2. You have 9 different grains in the bill. Definitely does not need to be so complex
3. You have three crystal malts in there at over 20% total of the grain bill. I'd suggest ditching one. The CaraAmber and Victory are probably similar so ditch one.
4. Seriously fix your mineral adjustments. Get rid of all that baking soda, you are at 427ppm bicarbonate! Bring it down to a reasonable number here. Same goes for your sodium and chloride levels, reduce both of them. Not sure if you're really trying to use the London profile for your stout, but even if you are you can see your mashing water profile numbers are way high.


Rev.

i believe the victory is a specialty malt and not a crystal malt...technically there are only 7 flavor grains ..the other two,flaked grains.. are in there to help build body mouthfeel and head retention...i just cant see using and consuming something in a beer that causes skin burns and irritation as well as throat and eye burns..that sounds more lethal than beneficial...if i lower the additions of gypsum and calcium chloride to drop the chloride down and cut the baking soda...i still need to adjust the ph in which case id still need the baking soda and re-elavate the sodium and i would also fall outside the desired water profile for calcium and so4..i picked london as i have read it is a good base water for stouts..and with my brew software(brewtarget)..which i have used for many years pretty succesfully..it calculated my mash and sparge volumes to what you saw and therfore brunwater calculated much higher additions to the mash then the sparge

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

15.2g of NaOH is going to add a lot of sodium...I would use calcium carbonate

Baking Soda is NaHCO3.

Unless you bubble CO2 through your water while stirring to dissolve it, most of calcium carbonate doesn't dissolve in water and merely drops out. Therefore it will not react with acidity and accomplish what you think it will. Best advice is to avoid it.

 

[mabrungard]

..i just cant see using and consuming something in a beer that causes skin burns and irritation as well as throat and eye burns..that sounds more lethal than beneficial..

Someone needs to understand that dose is the difference between medicine and poison. Did you know that dihydrogen monoxide can kill you in multiple ways and yet its used regularly in brewing?? Adding a teeny bit of lime to your brewing water will not hurt you or the beer.

 

[Rev2010]

if i lower the additions of gypsum and calcium chloride to drop the chloride down and cut the baking soda...i still need to adjust the ph in which case id still need the baking soda and re-elavate the sodium and i would also fall outside the desired water profile for calcium and so4.

So if you're going to just ignore good advice given to you why post asking a question? The levels mentioned already are super high and need reduction. The flavor impacts will be more hurtful than having a lower pH. As for slaked lime (aka pickling lime) it's used in *plenty* of foods you eat. Did you even look at the product page? It's a culinary product used to control pH in a variety of applications. Do you use Starsan? Well you don't want to get undiluted Starsan on your skin either.


Rev.

 

[marchuk96]

So if you're going to just ignore good advice given to you why post asking a question? The levels mentioned already are super high and need reduction. The flavor impacts will be more hurtful than having a lower pH. As for slaked lime (aka pickling lime) it's used in *plenty* of foods you eat. Did you even look at the product page? It's a culinary product used to control pH in a variety of applications. Do you use Starsan? Well you don't want to get undiluted Starsan on your skin either.


Rev.

Not trying to ignore any advice by any means... I love hearing the feedback and learning some things on here.. it is why i posted..I admit at first I didn't look at the link prior to posting but have looked at it now... was just possibly hoping for a resolution to fix the problem without having to purchase anything else and use what I had available... it is obvious I will have to ditch the baking soda for the lime...I am also assuming that the lime addition will be significantly smaller than 15.2g baking soda

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

6.7 grams of slaked lime (calcium hydroxide) should yield just about the same acid neutralizing effect as for 15.2 grams of baking soda.

But I still contend that something is likely wrong when the suggested addition levels are this high for a 5.5 gallon batch....

What is the predicted mash pH without any baking soda or pickling lime (also called slaked, or calcium hydroxide) added?

 

[Soulshine2]

Sup all...looking for some feedback on a stout I will be brewing soon...I feel pretty good about the grain bill and I have a water profile set for it...attached is the grain bill and water profile...any feedback is more than welcome..thanks

pics too small to see anything.

 

[Soulshine2]

So if you're going to just ignore good advice given to you why post asking a question? The levels mentioned already are super high and need reduction. The flavor impacts will be more hurtful than having a lower pH. As for slaked lime (aka pickling lime) it's used in *plenty* of foods you eat. Did you even look at the product page? It's a culinary product used to control pH in a variety of applications. Do you use Starsan? Well you don't want to get undiluted Starsan on your skin either.


Rev.

This very post is Exactly what I am referencing in my thread.
Post to Beginners, READ!

 

[quijiba]

If you don't want to get the lime, that amount of baking soda is fine (i've used comparable amounts and it's come out very well on the other side).

In general your water profile is good. I would personally lower the bicarbonate. I typically target a profile in this range (bicarbonate as high as you have gives a weird minerally mouth feel I find):

125 Ca
5 Mg
50 Na
100 SO4
150 Cl
250 Bicarbonate

As far as the recipe, like others, I would recommend simplifying it. You by no means have to, i'm sure this will turn out a nice recipe, but 1 crystal malt is fine (probably the 80, I personally love 120), one of either munich or vienna, no need for unmalted barley. You can probably get it down to 6 malts without much effort.

Best of luck!

 

[MoonBrewer]

If you want to avoid all the baking soda or lime additions, dont add the roasted malts until the end of the mash, after conversion is complete. Set up the spreadsheet with base and non-roasted specialty malts to get a good target mash ph. In last 10 minutes or so add the roast malt, by then the drop in ph should not impact conversion.

Alternatively, you can cold soak the roasted grain and add the liquid to the boil. I think there are several threads on this topic, and claims are a much smoother roast flavor without harshness.

 

[marchuk96]

6.7 grams of slaked lime (calcium hydroxide) should yield just about the same acid neutralizing effect as for 15.2 grams of baking soda.

But I still contend that something is likely wrong when the suggested addition levels are this high for a 5.5 gallon batch....

What is the predicted mash pH without any baking soda or pickling lime (also called slaked, or calcium hydroxide) added?

4.51 is the predicted ph with my target being 5.5 to 5.6 with only gypsum and c.c. added...i tried adjusting it with the pickling lime and was able to drop the sodium level but it jacks my bicarb level to 600 and my calcium level to 282...it calculated 8.1g of pickling lime into the mash to get me to a 5.54 ph

 

[marchuk96]

If you don't want to get the lime, that amount of baking soda is fine (i've used comparable amounts and it's come out very well on the other side).

In general your water profile is good. I would personally lower the bicarbonate. I typically target a profile in this range (bicarbonate as high as you have gives a weird minerally mouth feel I find):

125 Ca
5 Mg
50 Na
100 SO4
150 Cl
250 Bicarbonate

As far as the recipe, like others, I would recommend simplifying it. You by no means have to, i'm sure this will turn out a nice recipe, but 1 crystal malt is fine (probably the 80, I personally love 120), one of either munich or vienna, no need for unmalted barley. You can probably get it down to 6 malts without much effort.

Best of luck!

Thank you...i just wish i could get it to work...the prob i am having is getting that bicarb level down low without also having either extremely high sodium or calcium levels...while my result on the first stout i did were fairly good i did experience what you are talking about when you said minerally mouth feel and even some saltiness...that beer also had a high bicarb level and sodium level because i just went with the large baking soda addition that brunwater calculated for me...this is what is driving me to make this one better and change what i did previously...how did you achieve those numbers?? also i wanted this to be real full bodied with a nice creamy head on it which is why i added the flaked barley...you think i should leave it out?? and the vienna and munich are my base for the stout...i should cut one of those tooo?? thank you and all for the feedback...i just want to nail this thing!!!!!