Stone Xocoveza Mocha Stout

[InspectorJon]

Brewed a beer on New Years Eve inspired by this thread. I modified the grain bill to get a higher ABV and emulate Abraxas which seems to be a beer that fits in this category. There is little information on brewing that one. The brewer gives some information here: ABRAXAS. I use the BIAB method. It was a long brew day. I had to rack some beer out of my primary and bottled a few of those so I would have a yeast cake to pitch on to. I made a 3 gallon batch. I had to mash in two separate kettles because I could not fit 14 lbs of grain and 6.5 gallons of water into one. I boiled two hours because information I gathered on brewing this kind of beer favored longer boil time. I emailed the brewer at Alvarado Street Brewery and he said they did a 3-4 hour boil for their Mexican pastry stout. I'll post the result in a few months when I get to finally taste it but the wort tasted amazing. If it comes out good I'll start a new recipe thread because this is really not Xocoveza but that is what got me headed down this road. OG ended up at 1.120. I added a little water to bring it back down to 1.114 which was my target.
Hot Break

Gravity

 

[toddo97]

Brewed a beer on New Years Eve inspired by this thread. I modified the grain bill to get a higher ABV and emulate Abraxas which seems to be a beer that fits in this category. There is little information on brewing that one. The brewer gives some information here: ABRAXAS. I use the BIAB method. It was a long brew day. I had to rack some beer out of my primary and bottled a few of those so I would have a yeast cake to pitch on to. I made a 3 gallon batch. I had to mash in two separate kettles because I could not fit 14 lbs of grain and 6.5 gallons of water into one. I boiled two hours because information I gathered on brewing this kind of beer favored longer boil time. I emailed the brewer at Alvarado Street Brewery and he said they did a 3-4 hour boil for their Mexican pastry stout. I'll post the result in a few months when I get to finally taste it but the wort tasted amazing. If it comes out good I'll start a new recipe thread because this is really not Xocoveza but that is what got me headed down this road. OG ended up at 1.120. I added a little water to bring it back down to 1.114 which was my target.
View attachment 605378 Hot Break

View attachment 605379 Gravity

Any update on this?

 

[NarrowsBrewCo]

I finally finished mine off, but had some changes. I added about 40 oz of coldbrew and still didn’t get much coffee flavor, I also hung some whole beans in the keg for a few days.

Regardless, what the coffee really did was offset the lactose sweetness and I couldn’t be happier.

It ended up tasting so good I didn’t add the cinnamon or the peppers.

The only other downside is it has very little head, and goes away quickly. My only guess is the oil from the nibs and coffee beans killed it.

 

[InspectorJon]

Any update on this?

Big beer - long reply.

On January 31 I pitched entire yeast cake of US-05 from a lower gravity amber ale into 3 gallons of 1.114 milk stout wort. It took off fast and after one week fermentation symptoms were done. At two weeks I measured and the gravity had gone from 1.114 to 1.048, pretty high still. I shook it up and raised the temperature to 70F for a week but the gravity did not go down.

At three weeks I racked to secondary and pitched a packet of SafAle S-33, a high alcohol tolerant yeast, and some yeast nutrient into the beer. I waited another week but it still did not move off 48 points. It was quite sweet. This style of beer should finish high but not this high I do not think. Brewers Friend predicted 1.031 for FG. I anticipated upper 30's. I assume my mashing temperature and process must have producd to may unfermentable sugars so I added 3/4 of a teaspoon of amylase enzyme in hopes of converting some of those sugars.

12 Hours after the enzyme addition fermentation activity resumed and after one week gravity was down to 1.038. That was this weekend, Feb 1, and a month after brew date. All the gravity samples have tasted great. I added the adjuncts this weekend and am waiting another week to see how it goes. I made a tincture of 1/2 190 proof everclear and 1/2 water mixed with crushed roasted cocao nibs, rough crushed coffee beans, ancho and guahillo chilis and crushed cinnamon sticks. This steeped for the 4 weeks. I poured it all into the beer. There was some residual tincture in the jar and I mixed some gravity sample with it and it definitely had that Xocoveza flavor going on. I'll test again this weekend. If the gravity remains the same I'll bottle and report back in a month.

 

[toddo97]

View attachment 610828 I finally finished mine off, but had some changes. I added about 40 oz of coldbrew and still didn’t get much coffee flavor, I also hung some whole beans in the keg for a few days.

Regardless, what the coffee really did was offset the lactose sweetness and I couldn’t be happier.

It ended up tasting so good I didn’t add the cinnamon or the peppers.

The only other downside is it has very little head, and goes away quickly. My only guess is the oil from the nibs and coffee beans killed it.

Looks good! I'm fine with a beer like this to have poor head retention as long as it tastes good

 

[toddo97]

Big beer - long reply.

On January 31 I pitched entire yeast cake of US-05 from a lower gravity amber ale into 3 gallons of 1.114 milk stout wort. It took off fast and after one week fermentation symptoms were done. At two weeks I measured and the gravity had gone from 1.114 to 1.048, pretty high still. I shook it up and raised the temperature to 70F for a week but the gravity did not go down.

At three weeks I racked to secondary and pitched a packet of SafAle S-33, a high alcohol tolerant yeast, and some yeast nutrient into the beer. I waited another week but it still did not move off 48 points. It was quite sweet. This style of beer should finish high but not this high I do not think. Brewers Friend predicted 1.031 for FG. I anticipated upper 30's. I assume my mashing temperature and process must have producd to may unfermentable sugars so I added 3/4 of a teaspoon of amylase enzyme in hopes of converting some of those sugars.

12 Hours after the enzyme addition fermentation activity resumed and after one week gravity was down to 1.038. That was this weekend, Feb 1, and a month after brew date. All the gravity samples have tasted great. I added the adjuncts this weekend and am waiting another week to see how it goes. I made a tincture of 1/2 190 proof everclear and 1/2 water mixed with crushed roasted cocao nibs, rough crushed coffee beans, ancho and guahillo chilis and crushed cinnamon sticks. This steeped for the 4 weeks. I poured it all into the beer. There was some residual tincture in the jar and I mixed some gravity sample with it and it definitely had that Xocoveza flavor going on. I'll test again this weekend. If the gravity remains the same I'll bottle and report back in a month.

Thanks for the update--I'm pretty sure this will be my next beer (and first try at it). I'm thinking about adding an extra pound or two of 2-row to see if can hit double digits with the ABV. I also have a pound of D240 Belgian candi syrup that I might try. I'm trying Imperial's A10 Darkness for the first time and plan on stepping up a starter so I'm crossing my fingers I don't run into a gravity problem. I'm never used enzymes, but I may get some in case it stalls. How much of the tincture additions did you use and were you happy with the amts?

 

[InspectorJon]

How much of the tincture additions did you use and were you happy with the amts?

Into 3 gallons of stout:
3 oz roasted cocao nibs
12 grams Indonesian cinnamon stick, crushed
8 g Medium roast Mandailing coffee, course crush
15 g Dry ancho chili, coarsely shredded - no seeds
5 g Dry guajillo, chili coarsely shredded - no seeds
3 weeks in 50/50 everclear & water, enough to cover everything.

I'll add vanilla extract to taste when I bottle. Vanilla beans have gotten so expensive.
I have not tasted since adding the spices. I added the tincture and all the whole spices into the secondary. I'll sample this weekend. Ancho chili is generally not very hot. Guajillo is still considered mild but is hotter. Peppers are somewhat unpredictable. I think I may end up adding more coffee in the form of espresso shots to taste from my espresso machine, same beans.

I have learned from my cooking experience that it is generally a good idea to aim for a flavor blend. Usually there is no individual dominant flavor but they all work together to create a singular unique flavor. The exception would be say Chocolate Stout. Then you would want chocolate to stand out.

My grain bill:
8 lb 2 Row
1.75 lb Munich light
1 lb Flaked Barley
.75 lb UK Pale Chocolate (220)
.75 Simpson DRC (120)
.5 Briess Black Barley (500)
.5 Roasted Barley (300)
.5 Carafa III (535)
.25 Flaked Oats
14 pounds of grain into 6.5 gallons of water. Full volume mash. Boiled down to around 3.5 gallons of wort.

Mashed at 150 for 1 hour then raised to 168 and lifted bag. Next time I'll go at 145 for an hour then up to 156 for 15 min then up to 168 and lift. I have had trouble in the past with Munich not attenuating well. There are a lot of roasted grains as well that may contribute some non-fermentable sugar.

I have been brewing using more current methods for about a year now. 18 batches, so I would not consider myself an expert. This particular beer is a grand experiment.

If there are any moderators following this I wonder if this discussion should be moved somewhere else because this is really not Xocoveza. It is a Mexican hot chocolate imperial stout. Might be called a pastry stout.

 

[toddo97]

Great info! I'm going to try vanilla extract for the first time with this for your same reason, but I'm trying to find a good 1 bean = xmL of extract formula. I'm also thinking about trying to do my tincture with bourbon to get a little of that flavor in it. The grain bill I found looks pretty similar to yours, but I may end up doing a hybrid of the two. Thanks for the long writeup--I hope it turns out great. What's your expected ABV? I know Xocoveza is just over 8%, but I'm going to shoot for a little north of 10%.

 

[InspectorJon]

What's your expected ABV? I know Xocoveza is just over 8%, but I'm going to shoot for a little north of 10%.

Should be between 10% and 11%

 

[toddo97]

Should be between 10% and 11%

That's exactly where I want to be!

 

[toddo97]

I picked up some amylase yesterday for stuck fermentations. Have you ever used right at yeast pitch or just if you run into stuck gravity?

 

[InspectorJon]

This is the only time I’ve used it. Some folks use it in the mash to get good conversation. I don’t think anyone uses it to pitch along with yeast. Using it on wort is to fix some mistake as far as I can see.

 

[InspectorJon]

Into 3 gallons of stout:
3 oz roasted cocao nibs
12 grams Indonesian cinnamon stick, crushed
8 g Medium roast Mandailing coffee, course crush
15 g Dry ancho chili, coarsely shredded - no seeds
5 g Dry guajillo, chili coarsely shredded - no seeds
3 weeks in 50/50 everclear & water, enough to cover everything.

I'll add vanilla extract to taste when I bottle. Vanilla beans have gotten so expensive.

Bottled this Monday. The flavor was outstanding. FG ended up 1.032. That is 10 to 11.5% ABV depending on what calculator you use. Regarding the amount of vanilla, I tasted the gravity sample that had no vanilla in it yet and it was really good. The pepper flavor was there with just a hint of heat at the end but you really had to look for it. I think the Ancho and Guajillo pepper combo was good. Those are the peppers that are easily available around here. I could not find any dried Pasilla peppers. I had bottled half the beer before I realized I had not added the vanilla yet. So now I have a split batch. I added McCormick organic pure vanilla extract a little at a time and tasted. I ended up putting 5 teaspoons of extract into 1.5 gallons of beer. This gave it a nice vanilla presence but it was not overwhelming at all. Now I wait a month to see how it all melds together.

After I poured the tincture into the wort I put the peppers and other flavorings in small hop bags to suspend in the wort using 6LB mono fish line. Seemed to work pretty well but it was a pain to get out of a small neck fermenter.

 

[toddo97]

Sounds great! I'm planning on adding toasted coconut to half to see how that goes. I think I'm all set on ingredients except peppers--need to run by the international market and see what they've got.

 

[InspectorJon]

I just ran across this from the guys at Experimental Brewing. It seems very relevant to this discussion. https://www.experimentalbrew.com/recipes/festivus-feats-strength

 

[InspectorJon]

I just ran across this from the guys at Experimental Brewing. It seems very relevant to this discussion. https://www.experimentalbrew.com/recipes/festivus-feats-strength

For folks in other parts of the country, Ancho chili peppers are commonly referred to as Pasilla peppers in California. So, I think you can safely assume when the brewer refers to Pasilla it is the same as Ancho in most other places.

 

[rickyrich]

Has anyone else made the OP recipe? It looks pretty solid although I don't think I would use the 1lb of Lactose right off the bat. I would probably cut that in half and see how that would be first but it could be right on.
Anyone have any comments on this recipe?

I just brewed a stout (different recipe) and was inspired by this post to incorporate the flavor/spice profile. I went cacao powder at flame out and then added 4 oz of cacao nibs to primary. A few days later I added the cinnamon sticks, vanilla beans, chili peppers, and nutmeg. I then cold crashed and added 2 oz of Hawaiian whole coffee beans for 24 hrs. I just kegged it this afternoon. OMG! The nose is dead on Xocoveza. I was seriously blown away. I read some of the comments about the chili peppers smelling or tasting like licorice. I def smelled the same thing when I was making my tincture.

The aroma is def dead on Xocoveza though. I've pretty much been obsessed with this beer since Christmas because I got to try Insurgente's version, and I liked it more than Stone. It had more heat and just a "sharper" spice profile, for lack of a better word.

I haven't tasted a sample of mine yet but I have high hopes. The beer looks and SMELLS incredible! Thank you guys for all the details on your experimentation with this recipe!! I am srsly trippin out that I got this nose on the first crack. Great recipe!

Yes. I used a full pound of lactose at 10 mins. I will report back later with a picture/comments after tasting.

 

[Tyler B]

Anyone brew this lately? Any updates from people who have brewed it in the past? I've followed this thread for a couple of years now and I'm finally ready to give it a try. I'll probably brew it in the next month so I'll share my results.

Regarding the peppers, I was able to purchase both anchos (dried poblano peppers) and pasillas (dried chilaca peppers) for my tincture. They are very clearly different peppers. Similar for sure, but they have different shapes, size, appearance, taste, smell, etc. Both very raisiny... Could be a contributor to the licorice taste?

That's all for now, just hoping to get this thread fired back up.

 

[InspectorJon]

The stout I made above turned out really good. Mash lower and oxygenate well to get better attenuation. FG or 1.025-35 or higher is not a bad thing for this kind of stout though. I'd pay more attention to the flavorings than the grains I used. It was not really a Xocoveza recipe. To emulate Xocoveza I would add some more nutmeg. I just bought some Xocoveza a couple weeks ago. Outstanding beer. Comparing the two, Xocoveza definitely has more nutmeg. I have 7 of my Mexican Mocha Stout left, going on a year now. I think I have to take another run at this soon.

 

[Tyler B]

Made my tinctures today.

The first contained:
2 pasilla peppers (18g)
2 ancho peppers (26g)
1 mulato pepper (15g)
6 cinnamon sticks (21g)
3 vanilla beans
Enough vodka to cover

The second tincture for extra spice/heat:
Several red japones chilis (10.5g)
Enough vodka to cover

I'll let these marinate for a few weeks until after I brew and I'm ready for secondary.

 

[Tyler B]

Before making the tinctures, I realized there are countless varieties of peppers and a couple different kinds of cinnamon for me to choose from. Here are my notes and observations regarding those.

Pasilla peppers are long and thin, dark colored with a slight greenish hue. They have more of a leathery raisiny taste and smell, sort of clean and dry. Very little spice to me personally (but I like really spicy food).

Anchos, while similar, are shorter, more round, and a deep dark color with a reddish hue. They taste and smell a bit more like tobacco with a fruiter taste. Again, very little heat.

The mulatos were similar in shape to the anchos but more similar in color to the pasillas. Their flavor and smell was more unique in that it was sweeter, spcier, and more rich. It tasted and smelled the best, plus it had a little extra heat (which the other two lacked) so I decided to add one to the mix.

Japones chilis were by far the spiciest so I kept them separate in their own tincture so as not to overwhelm the beer with heat. These little suckers were a bright red color and packed a lot of heat with very little to offer in the flavor/smell department. This will only be added little by little if necessary.

I chose the small orangeish tan colored cinnamon sticks that came in a little glass spice bottle from the supermarket. They were cleaner in appearance than the giant bark covered cinnamon sticks that are slightly smaller than my arm, and I felt more comfortable addind those to the tincture.

I might add a little of the other giant sized cinnamon to the boil (flame out) just in case it needs a little sanitization. Haven't decided about this.

 

[Tyler B]

I just smelled the main xoco tincture I made 5 days ago. Wow! It's bringing back memories and getting me excited for this beer. Smells amazing! So much Mexican spiced goodness. Can't wait to see/smell/taste what its like after coffee, cacao, and nutmeg (and beer) are added. Still undecided on how much nutmeg to add as the recipes have a lot of variety in them.

I'm brewing a small beer with friends this weekend. I'll probably use the yeast cake from that brew session for this beer.

 

[Jag75]

I have never tried this beer before. I am waiting for some to be delivered to a local liquor store . I went to Bakersfield a week or so ago and couldnt find it anywhere. I really wanna try this

 

[Tyler B]

You could brew it...

 

[Jag75]

I do brew choc milk stouts which I like . I wouldn't mind brewing this but I'd like to try it first .

 

[Tyler B]

I love big stouts, spicy food, Mexican mochas and the real one is like all of those wrapped into one.

The heat is minimal but pleasant, the vanilla and cinnamon make it warm and rich, the peppers, coffee, and chocolate give it a unique but familiar dessert/coffee sort of flavor and the touch of sweetness rounds off the edges and ties it all together.

It's definitely one of my favorites, but probably not for everyone. I love the style and all of the flavors so it works for me. Stone did a one time (I think) chai spiced stout that I really liked. Some day I think I'll take what I learn from this and apply it in an attempt to brew that.

Regardless, I'll continue to update throughout the brew process on this one for anyone who might be interested.

 

[Tyler B]

Just brewed this. I'll post my recipe later, but initial tastes are very promising.

I had to adjust recipe based on grain and hop availability. I decided to go with 1/2 tsp of fresh ground nutmeg and I'm not sure it's enough (at least after tasting a sample of hopped wort just before adding yeast). May add more later. I added cacoa, coffee, cinnamon, and nutmeg all either at the end of the boil or at flameout. Can't wait to taste this with the vanilla and chilis added to the mix.

Also, the S-04 didn't waste anytime with this. Airlock activity just a few hours after pitching.

 

[Tyler B]

Oh my geezus! This stuff took off like crazy. Activity in the airlock about 4 hours after pitching dry yeast directly to wort. The krausen is occupying about 2 gallons of headspace and while it's showing signs of slowing down, its still bubbling like crazy.

 

[Tyler B]

OK, so I kegged this a little over a week ago after about 2 weeks in primary and 2 weeks in secondary. I ended up adding the full teaspoon of nutmeg (half at the end of the boil and half in secondary). Same with the Lactose. I don't have my keezer build completed yet, so the beer is sitting safely in a keg where I can't get to it.

I bottled four beers that didn't fit into the keg and initial tastes, while admittedly too young, were a little harsh, undercarbed, and perhaps a bit too spicy. I never ended up using my spice/heat chili tincture because the dried Mexican chilis and cinnamon that I used provided plenty of heat.

But the most recent taste... Wow! This is going to be a good one. I'm not sure if it's cloned but it is a very good beer. Shaping up to be one of the best beers I've ever made for sure. Now I just need to wait for my faucets to arrive so I can build the keezer and start serving this delicious brew. I'll post my final recipe when I get around to it.

 

[InspectorJon]

But the most recent taste... Wow! This is going to be a good one. I'm not sure if it's cloned but it is a very good beer. Shaping up to be one of the best beers I've ever made for sure. Now I just need to wait for my faucets to arrive so I can build the keezer and start serving this delicious brew. I'll post my final recipe when I get around to it.

How is this going?