Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

[woo_pig]

Update: I've just had a sample of my nemesis....the Robust Porter (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=56768). The taste is STILL there. I've had a couple of brew buddies taste it and they confirmed the same thing. They mentioned a metallic/salty taste on the back-end (this is the same after-taste I have gotten every time). They've gone over my entire process and they are also at wits end. They only saw a couple of issues that "might" be somewhat susceptible. The first one is that I left wort in the primary for too long. For this particular batch I left it on there for two weeks until I transferred it into a CO2 purged keg where it then sat for an additional 3 weeks (they mentioned a week tops). From all my research, two weeks doesn't seem long at all. Second potential issue, I mixed StarSan with well water ran through a (salt) water softener. I mix a new batch every time I brew. Next time I'll try using RO water for this. Other than these two unlikely issues, I have no possible idea what might be causing this. A couple of you have kindly offered to try the beer to give me an idea of what may be causing this. I might have to take you up on the offer and ship out a couple of bottles!

I had a funny twang to mine too .I switched to RO water and I hadn't had it since.

 

[mprowland]

I'll have to answer the "exact" water additions later today as I don't have the water spreadsheet in front of me. I know I only added gypsum and calcium chloride to match the "porter" profile. Just to remind everyone, I only started using RO water(with additions)in the first place in attempt to correct this exact same issue I had when using purchased spring water. I "don't think" the water is the issue when I had the same results with spring water.
I have thought about replacing my keggle with a SS Brewtech kettle. I know many people use keggles, but sometimes when I wipe the inner surface with a paper towel I get a gray residue which I assume is oxidation of some sort. I often get a little of this even when I don't scrub the kettle. I doubt this will fix it as most keggle users would have the same problem. The keggle is a pain in the ass to maneuver and clean so this alone justifies the cost. I've replaced just about every piece of equipment I have so I might as well do the last piece!

 

[Cheesy_Goodness]

I haven't read the whole thread so you may have answered this, but has any part of your system been welded together? You mentioned a metallic taste and feel pretty confident that water isn't the culprit.

Is the gray residue common in keggles? I don't use one so I don't know but that doesn't seem right.

Just a thought.

 

[mprowland]

I haven't read the whole thread so you may have answered this, but has any part of your system been welded together?

Nothing is welded. Everything is stainless with exception to my mash tun and copper immersion chiller. I even replaced all valves to 3-piece stainless.

To answer a couple of other questions and comments: I do not use a yeast nutrient and using someone else's equipment is a good idea. If a new batch tastes bad after a new kettle, I'll definitely give this try.

 

[RoadKing]

Water sounds like the likely answer but you said you've tried spring, ro waters so....
Have you tried a different fermenter? Maybe it has infection you can't just wash off. Especially plastic buckets, tubing etc..

 

[mprowland]

Water sounds like the likely answer but you said you've tried spring, ro waters so....
Have you tried a different fermenter? Maybe it has infection you can't just wash off. Especially plastic buckets, tubing etc..

I've tried different fermenters, I went from various buckets to Speidel fermenters to eliminate possible infections and for the need of an auto siphon. I also replaced ALL tubing. This made no difference.

 

[Braufessor]

I'll have to answer the "exact" water additions later today as I don't have the water spreadsheet in front of me. I know I only added gypsum and calcium chloride to match the "porter" profile. Just to remind everyone, I only started using RO water(with additions)in the first place in attempt to correct this exact same issue I had when using purchased spring water. I "don't think" the water is the issue when I had the same results with spring water.
I have thought about replacing my keggle with a SS Brewtech kettle. I know many people use keggles, but sometimes when I wipe the inner surface with a paper towel I get a gray residue which I assume is oxidation of some sort. I often get a little of this even when I don't scrub the kettle. I doubt this will fix it as most keggle users would have the same problem. The keggle is a pain in the ass to maneuver and clean so this alone justifies the cost. I've replaced just about every piece of equipment I have so I might as well do the last piece!

After water additions, my second thought on a "metallic" taste would be some actual "metal" aspect of your brewing.... pot, screens, connections, etc....

It is certainly a possible source.

Can you borrow a kettle for a batch and see if it makes a difference.

Or, have someone else use your keg for a batch and see if the problem shows up in their beer?

Might be an easier/cheaper way of testing out that idea.

 

[Cheesy_Goodness]

Maybe bring some plain water to a boil in the keggle and give it a taste when it cools?

 

[Bassman2003]

How do you clean the keggle? I use Bar Keeper's Friend and have never seen a residue from the surface.

 

[TheMadKing]

One more opinion to add to the mess,

the flavors you described early on sound like yeast produced flavors to me. Try overpitching a batch and fermenting in the middle-cool part of the range. Get it off the trub after 10-12 days. Make sure you cold crash, fine with gelatin, keg it cold, and then let it sit in the keg cold for a week or two before drinking. Get as much suspended yeast out as you can. It makes a big difference in flavor to me, and all my beers had a common earthy/grainy/stale/corn like flavor until I started taking steps to reduce suspended yeast.

Oxidation is another likely culprit, you need to purge 15 times at 30 PSI to adequately remove oxygen from the keg headspace, or perform a closed transfer to keep oxygen near zero the whole time.

 

[mprowland]

How do you clean the keggle? I use Bar Keeper's Friend and have never seen a residue from the surface.

As soon as I'm done brewing, I lightly scrub the surface with water and a green scotch-brite pad. I don't use any cleaner. Visually, the keggle is stain free. On brew day, I rinse the keggle out and wipe down with a rag; no scrubbing.

 

[Bassman2003]

Just curious, where does the '15 times' number come from? The keg space is so small I can't see more than a few emptying the space. Now if you came back multiple times to get the oxygen to keep coming out of solution and emptied it would make more sense. But does the CO2 push the DO out of solution?

 

[Bassman2003]

As soon as I'm done brewing, I lightly scrub the surface with water and a green scotch-brite pad. I don't use any cleaner. Visually, the keggle is stain free. On brew day, I rinse the keggle out and wipe down with a rag; no scrubbing.

I would switch to something like a plastic dish or scrubbing brush and pick up some Bar Keeper's Friend. The plastic is better for the SS and the BKF makes the stuff look like new. Just get the keg a little wet, add BKF, scrub then rinse. Not too much water with the cleaner but a good rinse after you are done. Wear gloves as the BKF does a number on your skin.

 

[eulipion2]

I'm concerned about the "gray residue." Since your keggle should be stainless steel, I'm assuming the film isn't coming from the metal. Could it be a significant buildup of beer stone? Could that be throwing off the flavor?

Bring a 50:50 mix of vinegar and water, let's say about a gallon of each, to a boil (or at least get it really hot), turn off the heat, cover your kettle and let it sit for 5 min. Now see if you get that gray residue when you wipe down the keggle. If yes, scrub that crap out, rinse thoroughly, and try another brew.

 

[Braufessor]

Just curious, where does the '15 times' number come from? The keg space is so small I can't see more than a few emptying the space. Now if you came back multiple times to get the oxygen to keep coming out of solution and emptied it would make more sense. But does the CO2 push the DO out of solution?

That is if you are trying to purge an empty keg...... you hit it with a bunch of CO2 then vent..... there is still oxygen in the keg because all you are doing is mixing CO2 with the O2 that was there to start with. So, if your strategy is to purge an empty keg with CO2 and then vent it..... you need to do it something like 15 times if you actually think you are going to reduce Oxygen to near zero.

If you are forcing out a keg full of star san, then basically once is good enough.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for clarifying. I agree.

Mark, keep us updated on the keggle cleaning. We are all sorry that homebrewing is not yielding great results. I have changed some equipment over the years and hit some rough patches. Hope you find the answer. I like the idea of trying an extract batch or fermenting somebody else's wort.

 

[TheMadKing]

That is if you are trying to purge an empty keg...... you hit it with a bunch of CO2 then vent..... there is still oxygen in the keg because all you are doing is mixing CO2 with the O2 that was there to start with. So, if your strategy is to purge an empty keg with CO2 and then vent it..... you need to do it something like 15 times if you actually think you are going to reduce Oxygen to near zero.



If you are forcing out a keg full of star san, then basically once is good enough.

No that's to purge the head space in a full keg, Dougcz has done experiments and calculations and demonstrated that you need to purge a full keg that many times to reduce the O2 content to 0.01ppm which is "professional level" packaging standards.

I'll dig up his calculations and graphs later if I remember, but it's way more than you think.

EDIT here's the thread where he discusses it. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7616695

Besides, a full keg or empty keg doesn't matter, it will take the same number of purges. Think about it. You are charging to a pressure, meaning that you are scaling your oxygen displacement per purge to however much free volume you have in the keg. The ratio per purge stays the same.

 

[PLOVE]

the flavors you described early on sound like yeast produced flavors to me. Try overpitching a batch and fermenting in the middle-cool part of the range. Get it off the trub after 10-12 days. Make sure you cold crash, fine with gelatin, keg it cold, and then let it sit in the keg cold for a week or two before drinking. Get as much suspended yeast out as you can. It makes a big difference in flavor to me, and all my beers had a common earthy/grainy/stale/corn like flavor until I started taking steps to reduce suspended yeast.

I second MadKing on this one. If you under pitch, or stress your yeast you can definitely get off, side of the tongue, flavors that to my palate seem "metallic". Are you recycling yeast? If using fresh yeast, particularly liquid smack packs, are you making a starter or using multiple packs per 5 gallons. If not, you're likely under pitching.

Just thinking out loud. . .

 

[dhelegda]

It's the same off-flavor in almost all the beers. I can't describe it but it's always on the back-end. I notice it more with porters and stouts. I still notice them in IPA's, they're just not as noticeable.



I have many friends that brew. I watch them, and they watch me. There seems to be nothing out of the ordinary. I just need someone with a technical palate for beer to tell me what's wrong. When and if I fix this issue, I have no doubt that my beer will be outstanding. I believe I have ruled out all of the rookie mistakes through this process.

It may be your keg or keg lines. Keg lines are cheap enough to replace. I brewed a root beer ale and now the only think I can run through the lines are root beer, luckily I have children, and they love root beer. But back to my point sometimes the lines and kegs will hold on to nasty flavors. Have you tried bottling your brews?

 

[mprowland]

I'll try and answer a few questions: I have 15-gallon SS Brewtech kettle on order so I'm not going to be too concerned with cleaning the old one. I'm sick of slinging that heavy bastard around anyway! I typically make a starter with everything that's not Nottingham and US-05(1000ml to 100 grams of DME typically). If I'm using dry yeast, I'll use 2 packages for anything over 1.060. I do rehydrate all dry yeast. All keg lines and tubing are new. I'll try one more batch with my new kettle. With exception to my immersion chiller, EVERYTHING will have been replaced since I originally had this problem; kettle, mash tun w/false bottom, fermenters, sparge water pot, corny kegs, temp controlled fermentation chamber, valves, tubing, thermometers, Starsan, CO2 tanks and regulators, water and buying grain from two different suppliers. There is literally almost nothing else to replace. If this next batch turns out the same, I'll brew the next with my buddies setup and I'll have him do the same. I'm determined to make beer brewing my bitch! I have no doubt that my beer will be awesome when I finally find the culprit. I just hope I find it. Thanks again for everyone's suggestions!

 

[TheMadKing]

I'll try and answer a few questions: I have 15-gallon SS Brewtech kettle on order so I'm not going to be too concerned with cleaning the old one. I'm sick of slinging that heavy bastard around anyway! I typically make a starter with everything that's not Nottingham and US-05(1000ml to 100 grams of DME typically). If I'm using dry yeast, I'll use 2 packages for anything over 1.060. I do rehydrate all dry yeast. All keg lines and tubing are new. I'll try one more batch with my new kettle. With exception to my immersion chiller, EVERYTHING will have been replaced since I originally had this problem; kettle, mash tun w/false bottom, fermenters, sparge water pot, corny kegs, temp controlled fermentation chamber, valves, tubing, thermometers, Starsan, CO2 tanks and regulators, water and buying grain from two different suppliers. There is literally almost nothing else to replace. If this next batch turns out the same, I'll brew the next with my buddies setup and I'll have him do the same. I'm determined to make beer brewing my bitch! I have no doubt that my beer will be awesome when I finally find the culprit. I just hope I find it. Thanks again for everyone's suggestions!

What commercial beers do you like?

 

[SnowRaven]

Hello, sorry to hear of your troubles

FYI on the instructions with my 2nd Spike Kettle (arrived last week)
Spike has now told us to not use the green scotch-brite pad

Just use PBW or like and then shine with Barkeepers friend and stainless scrubbers or a rag

that grey sludge is oxidation, and may have created by use of those pads (i have seen it in new cast SS parts multiple times)

or if the first pot was not a high grade of stainless could have been an issue.

 

[mprowland]

I like almost ALL commercial beers. Everything from Bell's to PBR and Blatz. The only two beers that were undrinkable for me thus far have been Dragon's Milk and a potentially bad bottle of Rolling Rock. I've actually had a decent concoction of beer from a bar mat from under the taps that I actually liked! From top to bottom, Bell's anything is my favorite.
Thanks for the scrotch-brite tip, I definitely won't be using it on my new one!!!

 

[TheMadKing]

I like almost ALL commercial beers. Everything from Bell's to PBR and Blatz. The only two beers that were undrinkable for me thus far have been Dragon's Milk and a potentially bad bottle of Rolling Rock. I've actually had a decent concoction of beer from a bar mat from under the taps that I actually liked! From top to bottom, Bell's anything is my favorite.
Thanks for the scrotch-brite tip, I definitely won't be using it on my new one!!!

Hmm well I was hoping to narrow down your palette sensitivities with that question. Everyone is different, I personally don't like many Belgian beers because my palette is sensitive to phenolic flavors which are common byproducts of Belgian strains, and they taste weird to me.

I really think yeast flavor is your root issue. Most commercial beers are filtered and have no yeasty taste.

In homebrew, cold crash, gelatin, keg and cold condition some more. And don't throw out a batch until its been cold in the keg and on gas for at least 2 months.

And don't move your kegs!

 

[Bassman2003]

No that's to purge the head space in a full keg, Dougcz has done experiments and calculations and demonstrated that you need to purge a full keg that many times to reduce the O2 content to 0.01ppm which is "professional level" packaging standards.

I'll dig up his calculations and graphs later if I remember, but it's way more than you think.

EDIT here's the thread where he discusses it. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7616695

Besides, a full keg or empty keg doesn't matter, it will take the same number of purges. Think about it. You are charging to a pressure, meaning that you are scaling your oxygen displacement per purge to however much free volume you have in the keg. The ratio per purge stays the same.

Sorry to go off track, but I just do not understand the logic here. We are talking about an inch of space in a full keg. Turn on the CO2 and the O2 is pushed to the top given CO2 is heavier. With the pressure of the incoming CO2, it seems the O2 would be wisked out. In fact everything would be pushed out only to be replaced with the rush of the new CO2. How could anything remain?

Now if you are counting the O2 in solution it would take more time for it to come out of solution given the right pressure conditions. But I do not think that is the focus of tipping the relief valve.

 

[Braufessor]

No that's to purge the head space in a full keg, Dougcz has done experiments and calculations and demonstrated that you need to purge a full keg that many times to reduce the O2 content to 0.01ppm which is "professional level" packaging standards.

I'll dig up his calculations and graphs later if I remember, but it's way more than you think.

EDIT here's the thread where he discusses it. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7616695

Besides, a full keg or empty keg doesn't matter, it will take the same number of purges. Think about it. You are charging to a pressure, meaning that you are scaling your oxygen displacement per purge to however much free volume you have in the keg. The ratio per purge stays the same.

Ok.... it takes 15 purges to displace the O2 in an inch of head space and it takes 15 purges to displace the o2 in an entire keg..... but, that is a big difference. The AMOUNT of CO2 it takes to purge an inch of head space is nothing. The amount to purge an entire keg is huge. So..... "Full or empty" does matter....... it is the difference between a tiny bit of CO2 and using an entire cylinder. And, if you fill a keg 100% full of star san, and push the Star san out with CO2, and do a closed transfer..... you only need to "purge" it one time.... not 15.

 

[Braufessor]

Sorry to go off track, but I just do not understand the logic here. We are talking about an inch of space in a full keg. Turn on the CO2 and the O2 is pushed to the top given CO2 is heavier. With the pressure of the incoming CO2, it seems the O2 would be wisked out. In fact everything would be pushed out only to be replaced with the rush of the new CO2. How could anything remain?

Now if you are counting the O2 in solution it would take more time for it to come out of solution given the right pressure conditions. But I do not think that is the focus of tipping the relief valve.

The whole "CO2 is heavier than O2" thing is basically a myth/misunderstanding of gas laws. When you put CO2 into a keg (air space) it does not entirely displace what is there.... it mixes. So, it reduces the % Oxygen but does not eliminate it. It is like you are cutting the O2 in half, and in half again, and in half again.... overtime you purge it. But, ultimately, you have to cut it in half 15 times to "eliminate" it. Now...... there is a HUGE difference between doing that with an inch of head space and an empty keg.

 

[berndawg84]

I'm no expert, but for your next batch I wonder about saving a little and bottling a 6 pack or so of it and kegging the rest and then compare the taste? Perhaps it's the keg? Also tbh maybe somebody suggested this, I haven't read the whole thread.

And not to be patronizing but I assume you haven't experienced this taste in other commercial beers or other drinks you've had recently?

 

[mprowland]

I'm no expert, but for your next batch I wonder about saving a little and bottling a 6 pack or so of it and kegging the rest and then compare the taste? Perhaps it's the keg? Also tbh maybe somebody suggested this, I haven't read the whole thread.

And not to be patronizing but I assume you haven't experienced this taste in other commercial beers or other drinks you've had recently?

I tried bottling a 6-pack a year ago; it tasted the same. I have not tasted the issue in any commercial beer. Others who have tasted my beer have not tasted this issue in a commercial beer. The issue is not subtle, it's fairly apparent. I'm told the smell is fine, it's the taste on the back end. I have a few things to try on the next batch. 1. New kettle and NO Scotch-Brite. 2. Get the beer off the yeast cake after 10 days. 3. Cold crash. 4. Use RO water with StarSan.
For those that use Bar Keepers, doesn't this remove the oxidation layer as well? I tried cleaning the outside of my keg with a green scotch-brite pad and it barely removes anything. If I use BKF, it removes everything. It just seems more abrasive than a green scotch-brite pad.

 

[TheMadKing]

Ok.... it takes 15 purges to displace the O2 in an inch of head space and it takes 15 purges to displace the o2 in an entire keg..... but, that is a big difference. The AMOUNT of CO2 it takes to purge an inch of head space is nothing. The amount to purge an entire keg is huge. So..... "Full or empty" does matter....... it is the difference between a tiny bit of CO2 and using an entire cylinder. And, if you fill a keg 100% full of star san, and push the Star san out with CO2, and do a closed transfer..... you only need to "purge" it one time.... not 15.

100% agree, I wasn't arguing with that point, just correcting the "15 purges only applies to an empty keg" thing