Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

[modifier]

Looks like I spoke too soon. My milk stout is starting to turn for the worse. The beer was at its' best a week into the keg, now it's slowly getting worse. My wife LOVED it at first, but not so much now. We're both disappointed with how it's turning out. The only thing I can think that would make it worse with age would be oxidation? I feel like I've done everything to avoid this. I'm completely at a loss now.

This most definitely ain't the culprit but.. This reminded me of my 'recent' rye stout. It was weird at first, then becoming amazing after a week or two, but after that the hops began to shine thru and it was very weird, i didn't like the change in the balance. Since that i've had bottle every now and then and it's quite tasty (entered in a comp also since i was told by few it was awesome) but it's funny how it lost 'what-i-perceived-as-the-prime'..

 

[crusader1612]

I agree, I need to brew another dark beer of some sort. I have too many summer beers waiting on deck so it may be awhile.

I think he means the exact same beer. Establish where it might be coming from equipment etc. alternatively it could be an infection.

What kinds of flavour are we talking?
Astringency in dark beers is the most common. Like sucking on a tea bag
Over whelming sweetness
Butter
Tart or sour
Dusty or chalky
Bitter
Corn / vegetable

Have a read of how to brew. Particularly the off flavour. And it might steer you in a better direction for where the flavours coming from.

 

[Telefontakip]

guys, your advices are so good!

 

[Egmonster]

I'm a pretty new brewer and people here have vastly more knowledge than I. One observation, I read a lot of this thread and didn't see anyone ask if you are sure about your water addition ingredients. You sure you are adding what you think you are adding? It's easy to screw up the white powders.

I sure hope you get it sorted! Just take heart in the fact that no matter how weird the flavour, it's still better than bud! Hehe

 

[jjeffers09]

Have you had your keg checked? Do you think it might have a bad seal? How much CO2 are you going through? I would say you need to keep an eye on 1 recipe. Something simple and easily to identify a process. If you are going bad in the keg after a week or so and getting stale/cardboard/dry skunked flavors it may be from the keg leaking? I would say on this next batch transfer fill like 6 bottles keg the rest and when your batch turns in the keg, go crack a bottle open and see if it has gone too. Or just take apart your gaskets and have them checked out at your LHBS. If I were you I would be looking into 1 gal xbmt to discern your issues. 64oz growlers are mini fermenters kind of thing... I know I hit you with a lot of ?s there... Hang in there brother.

I could not help but reading every post say to myself:
dark beers issues - check pH/water
extracts don't need water adjustments, a lot happened behind the scenes we don't know about from the label that says what kind of extract and weight.
Hot Side Aeration is a maybe. then you found your siphon - so more than a maybe

I like you am in the 30's. I just mash out my #36, only thing I have kicked in my process of my learning curve is I now use a muslin bag for my hops to try and contain some of the hop debris so it doesn't get in my fermenter. And if I may say so, avoid heavy duty scratch pads. Those are capable of gashing 302 steel let alone plastic... and mini crevasses are as much trouble as anything else.

 

[ncbrewer]

mprowland quote: "When I take a sample for checking my original gravity, I usually leave it on the counter for a week or so. The sample ferments just as fast as my wort, and this is with no yeast added to it!! There is obviously a fair amount of wild yeast in the air. Maybe this has something to do with it?"

This podcast http://hw.libsyn.com/p/c/b/2/cb2714...35811865&hwt=6ea6ebad1aac5fe598245e379b27e7a3 describes a sanitation test where you put a wort sample in a vessel and keep it at 80F. If it starts fermenting within one day you have sanitation issues. Within two days, probably OK. Within three days, it's very good sanitation. But to me, fermenting as fast as your wort with yeast pitched sounds like a problem anyway.

 

[rmyurick]

Ever try the bottling route? If you got a good beer you'd know the problem was in the keg/kegging system.

 

[mprowland]

-Thanks again for all the responses. I have had people watch me through the entire process and I have watched others brew through their entire process. If anything, I seem to be more anal with my procedures and cleanliness.
-I also don't think it's my water. I've used bottled spring water for the longest time and recently switched over to R.O. The R.O. water tastes great post treatment.
-Early on I kegged half of the batches and bottles the other half; no difference between them.
I just tried my Milk stout and my Centennial Blonde, both are very drinkable. I dare to say they are good! The Milk Stout started out decent, got worse, and now it's getting better by the day. My beers previous to my changes always got worse with age. I starting to think I had an oxidation problem. Making more batches will either confirm or deny this. Thanks again!

 

[urg8rb8]

-Thanks again for all the responses. I have had people watch me through the entire process and I have watched others brew through their entire process. If anything, I seem to be more anal with my procedures and cleanliness.
-I also don't think it's my water. I've used bottled spring water for the longest time and recently switched over to R.O. The R.O. water tastes great post treatment.
-Early on I kegged half of the batches and bottles the other half; no difference between them.
I just tried my Milk stout and my Centennial Blonde, both are very drinkable. I dare to say they are good! The Milk Stout started out decent, got worse, and now it's getting better by the day. My beers previous to my changes always got worse with age. I starting to think I had an oxidation problem. Making more batches will either confirm or deny this. Thanks again!

That's exactly what I experience as well. Like I posted earlier, my beers start out really good at first, get worse, then turn for the better and end up awesome!

Patience is a virtue!

 

[modifier]

About oxidation..
Last week, i actually rated the last two bottles of my (9th batch, first dark) xmas porter, blind, poured by swmbo. Why two bottles? well, the other one got aerated really bad in the bottling process. I capped and marked it.
There were some really interesting differences in appearance, smell, flavour and even mouthfeel. In the end, the healthy one felt like porter (22/50) and thr oxidated was like a quite tasty stout! (32/50) Unbelievable.

 

[texmedic49]

This has been an epic read.

I feel so bad for you OP, I can't imagine what it would be like to have to dump pretty much every batch I'd ever made. I'm also amazed that your wife still (seemingly) supports you. Mine would have hauled all my equipment to the dump herself if the same thing had happened to me.

Did you try the Star San with water other than tap water? I don't recall you stating that you had.

Other than that, sounds like you have a solid process. I don't keg, so I can't offer any opinions in that arena. I'll sure follow this one, as I'd love to see you succeed.

 

[sikkingj]

I think you honed in on one infection - the auto siphon. I think your kegerator lines and Taps need a thorough cleaning to remove any bacteria that has formed from the previous batches run through them.

Run some pbw followed by starsan through your keg lines and disassemble and soak your taps. If this doesn't seem to be cleaning the lines, replace them - they are cheap in comparison to the beer ingredients and your sanity.

As for the potential wild yeast, if you are pitching large enough starters (2L+) you should not have a problem.

 

[mucci2k]

How has the beer been turning out?

 

[mprowland]

I've only made a few batches since my last horrible batch. I made a milk stout with my new equipment additions and that turned out to be solid. I've also made a Centennial Blonde and a German Wheat. The Centennial Blonde was good but the German Wheat had a sulfur smell that I never could get rid of. The taste was good if you overlooked the smell. This past Friday I made a Two Hearted clone. I noticed I have a little of the same sulfur smell during fermentation thus far( I used WLP051). I hope this clears up. I believe the sulfur smell has more to do with temperature control than anything. In the next week or so I'm making a temperature controlled fermentation chamber. Once I have this, I'm going to try my nemesis which is a Brown or a Porter. I'll post back in 4-6 weeks once it's ready. Thanks for checking in!!!!

 

[Calypso]

Is there a place where I can send off a couple bottles and have them tell me what's wrong with my beer? I've made 30+ all-grain batches now and almost everyone of them has been barely drinkable. I have yet to make a beer that I would pay money for. I'm done trying to troubleshoot as I've tried just about everything(too long to list here). I've tried a few brewers locally and they couldn't tell me. I'm at wits end and am sick of dumping gallons upon gallons down the drain. Thanks for any input......Mark

Mark - I'm in the Ann Arbor area if you want to meet up. I'm BJCP Certified, so I might be able to help identify the off flavor and give process pointers. I might even be able to come to Lansing on brew day, with some scheduling patience. Local brewer groups are also a great idea, as mentioned.

Edit: didn't read the whole thread, disregard!

 

[GPP33]

I haven't read the whole thread so this may have mentioned but you need to start a process of elimination. stabbing at random solutions people throw at you over the internet will likely just lead to frustration.

The first thing you need to look at is measurements. Ensure all of your equipment is reading accurately. Temperature, volume, and weight are the big ones for brewing. When it comes to thermometers don't do the check ice water and boiling water trick, you need to calibrate it at the temperatures it's used. Think strike temp, mash temp, sparge temp and fermentation temp.

Once you know your equipment is good work up a recipe for something you'll enjoy but is super simple. You don't want anything with big flavors, aromas or ABV to hide your off flavor, just a nice clean enjoyable beer. For me I'd do something based off an American wheat, maybe 6lbs of pale 2 row, 3 lbs of wheat, get about 18 IBUs from a 60 minute boil then a light 15 minute and flame out hop addition of a hop I enjoy. I'd skip dry hopping for now. For yeast get something that has high attenuation and finishes super clean, maybe a WLP001 or something.

Now take that 5 gallon recipe to where ever you get your ingredients and get enough for two batches. Brew one batch on your system and one bath on a friends system. Do EVERYTHING exactly the same. Take the wort from each brew and split it into two fermenters (total of 4 each with 2.5 gallons). Keep one fermenter of each brew at your house and one at your buddies so each of you has one fermenter from each brew. Once the beer is done get them all together to compare.

If they both suck then you have an ingredient issue, find a new supplier.

If both of the beers fermented at your house suck and your buddies are good then you have a fermentation issue.

If both of the beers brewed at your place suck and both of the beers brewed at your buddies are good (i.e. you each have one good and one bad batch) then you have a brewing issue.

If both are excellent keep brewing that recipe.

Narrowing down on your problem through the process of elimination will save you a lot of headaches and wasted beer.

 

[Redlantern]

This past Friday I made a Two Hearted clone. I noticed I have a little of the same sulfur smell during fermentation thus far( I used WLP051). I hope this clears up. I believe the sulfur smell has more to do with temperature control than anything.

WLP051 is a smelly yeast. Last time I used it, my wife asked me to look to see if our new kitten was peeing or something downstairs. Nope - just the smell of fermentation. Seems to not carry over into bottling/kegging. This yeast may finish slowly, so be patient and make sure your hydrometer readings are truly stable before packaging.

 

[JLeuck64]

I've only made a few batches since my last horrible batch. I made a milk stout with my new equipment additions and that turned out to be solid. I've also made a Centennial Blonde and a German Wheat. The Centennial Blonde was good but the German Wheat had a sulfur smell that I never could get rid of. The taste was good if you overlooked the smell. This past Friday I made a Two Hearted clone. I noticed I have a little of the same sulfur smell during fermentation thus far( I used WLP051). I hope this clears up. I believe the sulfur smell has more to do with temperature control than anything. In the next week or so I'm making a temperature controlled fermentation chamber. Once I have this, I'm going to try my nemesis which is a Brown or a Porter. I'll post back in 4-6 weeks once it's ready. Thanks for checking in!!!!

Temp control was THE best improvement I've noticed in my home brewing experience to date! Solid batches time after time... even trying new recipes for the first time turn out great. I really think this aspect of home brewing should get more recommendation than it gets, could help others from burning out on early failed batches.

 

[trav77]

temp control was the best improvement i've noticed in my home brewing experience to date! Solid batches time after time... Even trying new recipes for the first time turn out great. I really think this aspect of home brewing should get more recommendation than it gets, could help others from burning out on early failed batches.

+1000

 

[IcicleToes]

How does one calibrate a thermometer at strike temp? Sounds like a good plan, because I don't quite trust the ice and boiling water methods.

When it comes to thermometers don't do the check ice water and boiling water trick, you need to calibrate it at the temperatures it's used. Think strike temp, mash temp, sparge temp and fermentation temp.

 

[day_trippr]

How does one calibrate a thermometer at strike temp? Sounds like a good plan, because I don't quite trust the ice and boiling water methods.

One needs a trusted agent. In my case, it's a Thermapen...

Cheers!

 

[GPP33]

How does one calibrate a thermometer at strike temp? Sounds like a good plan, because I don't quite trust the ice and boiling water methods.

I shouldn't have said "calibrate" as you can not really calibrate most thermometers. It's really "verifying calibration", I think you got the point though. The only way to verify calibration is to compare it to a known standard. That standard can be another thermometer that you trust. If you can compare it to multiple thermometers that you kinda trust and they all read the same then that's good too. The likelihood of multiple thermometers being off by the same amout is slim so a thermometer consensus if you will is a good place to start.

If you really want to know for sure you'll need to get it to a calibration supplier who can compare it to a standard tracable to NIST.

 

[mprowland]

Update: I've just had a sample of my nemesis....the Robust Porter (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=56768). The taste is STILL there. I've had a couple of brew buddies taste it and they confirmed the same thing. They mentioned a metallic/salty taste on the back-end (this is the same after-taste I have gotten every time). They've gone over my entire process and they are also at wits end. They only saw a couple of issues that "might" be somewhat susceptible. The first one is that I left wort in the primary for too long. For this particular batch I left it on there for two weeks until I transferred it into a CO2 purged keg where it then sat for an additional 3 weeks (they mentioned a week tops). From all my research, two weeks doesn't seem long at all. Second potential issue, I mixed StarSan with well water ran through a (salt) water softener. I mix a new batch every time I brew. Next time I'll try using RO water for this. Other than these two unlikely issues, I have no possible idea what might be causing this. A couple of you have kindly offered to try the beer to give me an idea of what may be causing this. I might have to take you up on the offer and ship out a couple of bottles!

 

[eulipion2]

They mentioned a metallic/salty taste on the back-end (this is the same after-taste I have gotten every time).
...
The first one is that I left wort in the primary for too long. For this particular batch I left it on there for two weeks until I transferred it into a CO2 purged keg where it then sat for an additional 3 weeks (they mentioned a week tops). From all my research, two weeks doesn't seem long at all.

You really don't need secondary. I've seen a lot of people package their brews after two weeks. I leave most of mine in primary for three weeks before packaging. If I'm brewing a lager, I lager in the keg while it carbonates. Assuming you don't have any leaks that would allow oxygen into your fermenter or keg, this isn't the source of your problem.

Second potential issue, I mixed StarSan with well water ran through a (salt) water softener. I mix a new batch every time I brew. Next time I'll try using RO water for this. Other than these two unlikely issues, I have no possible idea what might be causing this. A couple of you have kindly offered to try the beer to give me an idea of what may be causing this. I might have to take you up on the offer and ship out a couple of bottles!

I would imagine your StarSan goes cloudy pretty quick, yes? Definitely try distilled/RO water. The SS will last a long time (as long as you keep it clean). Still, this would likely result in sanitation issues, and that doesn't sound like your problem.

Do you use this same water for your brews? The water softener could definitely be the cause of (or at least contribute to) your off-flavors. Bottled spring water (not mineral water) would be better, or you can use distilled and build up your water profile from scratch.

 

[mprowland]

I've made this Robust Porter with purchased spring water and with RO water built with the BRU'N water spreadsheet. The water tasted great in all cases. In all the batches I've ever made, I've never used softened well water(except RO water used from well water)

 

[kh54s10]

Update: I've just had a sample of my nemesis....the Robust Porter (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=56768). The first one is that I left wort in the primary for too long. For this particular batch I left it on there for two weeks until I transferred it into a CO2 purged keg where it then sat for an additional 3 weeks (they mentioned a week tops).


Second potential issue, I mixed StarSan with well water ran through a (salt) water softener. I mix a new batch every time I brew. (

Too long in primary is measured in months (many) not weeks. Too long in a keg is dependent on beer style. A month or three for IPAs to years for strong heavy beers.

Your problem is not here.

Starsan in the amounts left after sanitizing should have no effect. I would use unsoftened water, but doubt it has anything to do with your problems.

I've been following this thread for a while and I am stumped.

Maybe you can find someone who will let you brew on their rig and see if that makes a difference.

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

While I read many pages in this thread, I have not read all of them...so I apologize if this has already been discussed.



Have you tried to brew beer on someone else's system?

I would start doing the entire process on their system, using their water, their cleaning agents, their fermenting equipment and following through with fermenting and carbonating/bottle/kegging on their system in their house.

Then, if that taste fine, bring one element at a time back to your house/equipment. Figure out where you want to start...since this has been extremely persistent, I'd go in small steps...maybe brew/ferment at their house and bottle/carbonate at your house. Next, I'd move to fermenting , their fermentation equipment still, at your house. Then ferment with your equipment, your house, etc, etc, etc.


You've been at this too long to stop now

 

[MrAverageGuy]

Using yeast nutrient? Try skipping that, if you are. If you're starting with RO water and using Bru'n Water, those are good steps - maybe double-check the quantities of your mineral additions?

 

[Braufessor]

Update: I've just had a sample of my nemesis....the Robust Porter (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=56768). The taste is STILL there. I've had a couple of brew buddies taste it and they confirmed the same thing. They mentioned a metallic/salty taste on the back-end (this is the same after-taste I have gotten every time). They've gone over my entire process and they are also at wits end. They only saw a couple of issues that "might" be somewhat susceptible. The first one is that I left wort in the primary for too long. For this particular batch I left it on there for two weeks until I transferred it into a CO2 purged keg where it then sat for an additional 3 weeks (they mentioned a week tops). From all my research, two weeks doesn't seem long at all. Second potential issue, I mixed StarSan with well water ran through a (salt) water softener. I mix a new batch every time I brew. Next time I'll try using RO water for this. Other than these two unlikely issues, I have no possible idea what might be causing this. A couple of you have kindly offered to try the beer to give me an idea of what may be causing this. I might have to take you up on the offer and ship out a couple of bottles!

What did you do with your brewing water for this beer? When I hear words like "Metallic/salty" - my first thought is water additions..... Did you add anything? How much? To RO water? Tap water?

 

[mongoose33]

What did you do with your brewing water for this beer? When I hear words like "Metallic/salty" - my first thought is water additions..... Did you add anything? How much? To RO water? Tap water?

Agreed....

It's pretty hard to debug someone else's process when they aren't indicating EXACTLY what they are doing.

So....what water additions? What EXACT water additions? To exactly what kind of water? OP shouldn't just say he used Brunwater--he should say what he did.

 

[woo_pig]

Update: I've just had a sample of my nemesis....the Robust Porter (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=56768). The taste is STILL there. I've had a couple of brew buddies taste it and they confirmed the same thing. They mentioned a metallic/salty taste on the back-end (this is the same after-taste I have gotten every time). They've gone over my entire process and they are also at wits end. They only saw a couple of issues that "might" be somewhat susceptible. The first one is that I left wort in the primary for too long. For this particular batch I left it on there for two weeks until I transferred it into a CO2 purged keg where it then sat for an additional 3 weeks (they mentioned a week tops). From all my research, two weeks doesn't seem long at all. Second potential issue, I mixed StarSan with well water ran through a (salt) water softener. I mix a new batch every time I brew. Next time I'll try using RO water for this. Other than these two unlikely issues, I have no possible idea what might be causing this. A couple of you have kindly offered to try the beer to give me an idea of what may be causing this. I might have to take you up on the offer and ship out a couple of bottles!

I had a funny twang to mine too .I switched to RO water and I hadn't had it since.

 

[mprowland]

I'll have to answer the "exact" water additions later today as I don't have the water spreadsheet in front of me. I know I only added gypsum and calcium chloride to match the "porter" profile. Just to remind everyone, I only started using RO water(with additions)in the first place in attempt to correct this exact same issue I had when using purchased spring water. I "don't think" the water is the issue when I had the same results with spring water.
I have thought about replacing my keggle with a SS Brewtech kettle. I know many people use keggles, but sometimes when I wipe the inner surface with a paper towel I get a gray residue which I assume is oxidation of some sort. I often get a little of this even when I don't scrub the kettle. I doubt this will fix it as most keggle users would have the same problem. The keggle is a pain in the ass to maneuver and clean so this alone justifies the cost. I've replaced just about every piece of equipment I have so I might as well do the last piece!

 

[Cheesy_Goodness]

I haven't read the whole thread so you may have answered this, but has any part of your system been welded together? You mentioned a metallic taste and feel pretty confident that water isn't the culprit.

Is the gray residue common in keggles? I don't use one so I don't know but that doesn't seem right.

Just a thought.

 

[mprowland]

I haven't read the whole thread so you may have answered this, but has any part of your system been welded together?

Nothing is welded. Everything is stainless with exception to my mash tun and copper immersion chiller. I even replaced all valves to 3-piece stainless.

To answer a couple of other questions and comments: I do not use a yeast nutrient and using someone else's equipment is a good idea. If a new batch tastes bad after a new kettle, I'll definitely give this try.

 

[RoadKing]

Water sounds like the likely answer but you said you've tried spring, ro waters so....
Have you tried a different fermenter? Maybe it has infection you can't just wash off. Especially plastic buckets, tubing etc..

 

[mprowland]

Water sounds like the likely answer but you said you've tried spring, ro waters so....
Have you tried a different fermenter? Maybe it has infection you can't just wash off. Especially plastic buckets, tubing etc..

I've tried different fermenters, I went from various buckets to Speidel fermenters to eliminate possible infections and for the need of an auto siphon. I also replaced ALL tubing. This made no difference.

 

[Braufessor]

I'll have to answer the "exact" water additions later today as I don't have the water spreadsheet in front of me. I know I only added gypsum and calcium chloride to match the "porter" profile. Just to remind everyone, I only started using RO water(with additions)in the first place in attempt to correct this exact same issue I had when using purchased spring water. I "don't think" the water is the issue when I had the same results with spring water.
I have thought about replacing my keggle with a SS Brewtech kettle. I know many people use keggles, but sometimes when I wipe the inner surface with a paper towel I get a gray residue which I assume is oxidation of some sort. I often get a little of this even when I don't scrub the kettle. I doubt this will fix it as most keggle users would have the same problem. The keggle is a pain in the ass to maneuver and clean so this alone justifies the cost. I've replaced just about every piece of equipment I have so I might as well do the last piece!

After water additions, my second thought on a "metallic" taste would be some actual "metal" aspect of your brewing.... pot, screens, connections, etc....

It is certainly a possible source.

Can you borrow a kettle for a batch and see if it makes a difference.

Or, have someone else use your keg for a batch and see if the problem shows up in their beer?

Might be an easier/cheaper way of testing out that idea.

 

[Cheesy_Goodness]

Maybe bring some plain water to a boil in the keggle and give it a taste when it cools?

 

[Bassman2003]

How do you clean the keggle? I use Bar Keeper's Friend and have never seen a residue from the surface.

 

[TheMadKing]

One more opinion to add to the mess,

the flavors you described early on sound like yeast produced flavors to me. Try overpitching a batch and fermenting in the middle-cool part of the range. Get it off the trub after 10-12 days. Make sure you cold crash, fine with gelatin, keg it cold, and then let it sit in the keg cold for a week or two before drinking. Get as much suspended yeast out as you can. It makes a big difference in flavor to me, and all my beers had a common earthy/grainy/stale/corn like flavor until I started taking steps to reduce suspended yeast.

Oxidation is another likely culprit, you need to purge 15 times at 30 PSI to adequately remove oxygen from the keg headspace, or perform a closed transfer to keep oxygen near zero the whole time.