Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

[kh54s10]

Wow, you need to simplify, you have too many moving pieces. Does your beer really suck or are you just hard on yourself? Will other people drink it?

Recipes on the internet are quite dicey, I haven't been here too long and can see people that post recipes have about a 50% accuracy rate...

When I first started all grain, I just bought a few Northern Brewer kits and followed the directions in Beersmith. Their Chocolate Milk Stout is tasty as well as their Honey Brown Ale.

Why are you making a starter with dry yeast? They have enough glycogen to start fermentation without a starter. I would just buy enough yeast to pitch the right amount so you can take the variable of a starter out of the picture.

I would use tap or bottled water as well, messing with water chemistry is the last 1% of exceptional beer in my opinion.

It sounds like you have a swiss army knife and you want to play with all the tools since you have them. Simplify!

Hope it helps,
Chris

You need to go back and read all his replies.

1) other people have noticed the off flavors, but he admits to high expectations, but not getting close.
2) he has done solid recipes.
3) he has stated that he rehydrates dry yeast and makes starters with liquid yeast.
4) he has used bottled water as well as RO with adjustments. Messing with water chemistry is necessary when using RO water as the process strips the water of necessary minerals.
5) he has listed his processes and though he has the "swiss army knife" he seems to be using it properly.

A simplification might help lead to the problem though. For example: Doing a BIAB batch of a simple ale, limited malts and simple hopping schedule, using US05 rehydrated, 2 weeks primary in a new vessel, and bottling it.

But then again if you got good results that way and could not figure out why the difference, then went more complicated and got poor results, no progress would have been made.

 

[Jawbox0]

I saw you mentioned you'd tried extract years ago, however, you could eliminate a lot of variable if you tried an extract batch. My suggestion is a full volume extract batch with store bought RO water. Use a well reviewed kit from a retailer with good turnover like MoreBeer, NB, or similar.

If this turns out bad, it's transfer or ferment, otherwise it's your mash process.

A couple things I noticed:
Personally, I give my immersion chiller a full 15 minutes of sanitization in the boil, 5 minutes is probably enough, but I'd try longer.
You say you purge your keg for 10-15 seconds. Do you do multiple purges or just one?

 

[Gameface]

Everyone that tries it agrees that there is a definite bad off flavor? None of them have had any idea what it might be?

Edit: didn't realize this went 10 pages. nvm

 

[jmitchell3]

Is someone near mprowland?

If you send me a few bottles I'll give it a go and take it to our clubs' master bjcp judge and have him taste it.

 

[dyqik]

I see a couple of possible issues in the procedure you describe. Both are minor things, and might not be it.

Firstly, 5-6 weeks in an ale pail is a rather long time. For most ale yeasts, fermentation is done in 5 days to 2 weeks, and nothing is really gained by leaving the beer sitting for more than a few days after final gravity is reached (or dry hopping for 5 days or so is done). Bucket fermenters are somewhat oxygen permeable, and leaving the beer sitting for up to 5 weeks after fermentation stops opens the possibility of oxidation.

Secondly, and this one is a long shot, I don't see anything about acidifying the sparge water. I don't think this is usually an issue with batch sparging, but with fly sparging tannin extraction can be an issue if the sparge water's pH is greater than 6.0. With low alkalinity RO water, and batch sparging, I doubt that this is an issue, but maybe with salt additions it could be?

I guess it might help to post a full recipe, including salts addition for one or two of your brews (preferably one of the ones you think was worst for this, and maybe one that didn't suffer as well), just in case there's something you are misunderstanding there.

 

[Braufessor]

OP - if you really want to get to the bottom of this, you really need to go to the link I put on the first page. Check out the 2-3 home-brew clubs that are in your area. Find out if there are experienced BJCP judges in those clubs.... go to a couple meetings and see if you can't ask one of the members about your beer.

Just be up front with them and tell them: "I know there is something wrong with my beer. I don't want you to spare my feelings - just give me the truth and any advice or thoughts you have."

I don't think you are going to get to the bottom of it in this thread. There are dozens of variables being thrown around. Tasting descriptions are just too vague. You need someone experienced to taste it and be honest with you.

It should be relatively easy to determine the first question - is it an infection problem. From there, a good BJCP judge is going to be able to give you some likely areas to focus on.

Track down a homebrew club - especially if one of them has people that routinely enter competitions, hold competitions, judge, etc.

There has to be some folks you can find in your area. If not, you can find some BJCP folks on the forum that are in the midwest I would think that you could send a couple bottles to that should be able to give you an honest and useful insight.

 

[okbecker]

I think I have read through most of this....agree with Braufessor..find a club. Also, I had an issue last year when I changed my Kegging process. I started doing 3 gallon batches and kegging same way as 5 gallon batches - long story short To much O2 in kegs and during transfer, all beers had an off taste due to O2, stale, cardboard, the O2 can also lead to acetaldehyde that was not their previously....anyway I would highly recommend reviewing your transfer and kegging process. 5 weeks in bucket is probably allowing O2 in....try to purge kegs with CO2 prior to filling then burp the heck out of em....just my 2 cents..

 

[dammBrewer]

A great thread. I love how everyone is chiming in on helping the OP out. That's what the brewing community has over other "business's".

That said, (shameless but helpful plug), I am half of a growing podcast called Brewnology. Myself and my co-host Jason are both BJCP ranked judges and avid homebrewers. We present knowledge on brewing as well as advice on BJCP guidelines.

I think maybe the OP will find some of our podcasts helpful. Personally I think maybe this is leaning towards a balance of technique and water as the primary issues. But, that said, if the OP wants to send us a few bottles for sample and review we would be happy to give our opinions and advice on how to fix it. That's what our podcast is about, helping others brew better beer and understand it once you have it.

If the OP is interested, just send me a PM and I will get you the info. Otherwise, happy brewing and hang in there, you'll get through this. Heck, if you have made 30+ batches so far and "they are all bad" and you haven't given up yet....you're hooked .

 

[mprowland]

I don't think my water is to blame, I've purchased numerous types of spring water with poor results. I've only recently started using reverse osmosis. I think focusing on that is going down the wrong path considering the 20+ bad batches I've had with bottled spring water.

OP - if you really want to get to the bottom of this, you really need to go to the link I put on the first page. Check out the 2-3 home-brew clubs that are in your area. Find out if there are experienced BJCP judges in those clubs.... go to a couple meetings and see if you can't ask one of the members about your beer.

Just be up front with them and tell them: "I know there is something wrong with my beer. I don't want you to spare my feelings - just give me the truth and any advice or thoughts you have."

I don't think you are going to get to the bottom of it in this thread. There are dozens of variables being thrown around. Tasting descriptions are just too vague. You need someone experienced to taste it and be honest with you.

It should be relatively easy to determine the first question - is it an infection problem. From there, a good BJCP judge is going to be able to give you some likely areas to focus on.

Track down a homebrew club - especially if one of them has people that routinely enter competitions, hold competitions, judge, etc.

There has to be some folks you can find in your area. If not, you can find some BJCP folks on the forum that are in the midwest I would think that you could send a couple bottles to that should be able to give you an honest and useful insight.

I believe this is the best coarse of action. This is why I asked of a place where I could send a couple of bottles in the original post. From my very first batch of oatmeal stout over two years ago, I've been trying to troubleshoot this problem. I've also spent countless hours researching on this site trying to find answers. This has led me deep down the rabbit hole exposing many moving parts, many that shouldn't or don't need to be moving. I've seen enough people brew and have had people watch me brew, seems like any glaring issues would have surfaced. The quickest way to fix this is to have others try it who know what to look for. If for some reason they can't fix it, I'll try a batch of extract to rule out my mashing process.

 

[chickypad]

30 batches and all just barely drinkable - that actually seems pretty tough to do. I think that's why so many keep coming back to water - though that should have been addressed with RO and proper additions (I'd still like to see a full recipe will all additions to confirm it's not calculation error). And glad you dropped the 5.2 stabilizer. I agree it would really help if someone knowledgeable could taste these beers and figure out what we're troubleshooting, otherwise the shooting in the dark will just continue.

 

[brewcat]

Maybe you don't like beer?

Maybe try an all-grain kit?

 

[mprowland]

Maybe you don't like beer?

Is this my pesky glob of a liver trying to play mind tricks with me???

 

[mucci2k]

This may sound crazy, ask someone to brew on their equipment. Fermenters and all, maybe even use their keg just to see if removing all your equipment has the same results.

 

[unviewtiful]

Here's something that I haven't seen yet in this thread:

Do you clean your immersion chiller before you throw it in the kettle? Wort is acidic and will strip off some of the crud that builds up on copper when it sits for a while. I let my chiller sit in starsan for a minute or two before dropping it in the kettle. Though I typically drop it in after flameout, so I don't use the boiling temps to sanitize.

 

[mprowland]

Here's something that I haven't seen yet in this thread:

Do you clean your immersion chiller before you throw it in the kettle? Wort is acidic and will strip off some of the crud that builds up on copper when it sits for a while. I let my chiller sit in starsan for a minute or two before dropping it in the kettle. Though I typically drop it in after flameout, so I don't use the boiling temps to sanitize.

I have never done this. I make about 2-3(5-gallon)batches a month and it doesn't get the green corrosion, but it doesn't look shiny either.

 

[mprowland]

Here is a screenshot of my Bru'n water profile. I doubt the water has been the issue this whole time, but maybe I'm further compounding the issue by making a profile that's incorrect.

 

[mesooohoppy]

And glad you dropped the 5.2 stabilizer.

Why? I have heard mostly good things about this and a couple of bad thing from self claimed 'biologists and chemists'. It may be true, but I try to take everything with a grain of salt (ha!); even the positive reviews

I currently use this to aid in helping me with mash ph.. I recently just bought ph strips and i've only used them once, I think my mash ph was around 5.0 (IIRC).. my beers are okay, nothing special. usually the aroma is pretty good, but the taste is whats usually lacking. im assuming this is due to the water content, ph, and mash ph.

anywho, sorry! not trying to make this thread about me, I am just curious why you don't like the 5.2 stuff

 

[McKnuckle]

I'm sure someone will pick on some aspect of the water profile, but I think it's very reasonable and avoids any extremes. Plus 5.5 pH is ideal for a dark beer.

Seems like the water is not where you should be looking first.

 

[brewcat]

Is this my pesky glob of a liver trying to play mind tricks with me???

Hopefully not. Haha!

After finishing the thread...I'm with the ones that think less time in the fermenter. Plastic buckets would really expose your beer to a lot of oxygen at four-five weeks. Taste a hydrometer sample at two weeks. No off flavor then oxidation.

 

[Batteman87]

I have never done this. I make about 2-3(5-gallon)batches a month and it doesn't get the green corrosion, but it doesn't look shiny either.

I think I saw before you only have in the boil for 5 minutes. I let mine go for the last 15 minutes of the boil before starting the chiller.

 

[ncbrewer]

I do notice that my O.G. hydro sample ferments just as fast from wild yeast as my closed bucket does. It seems to make a decent sour!

I assume this is with an open container, but it still seems odd that it would have that much wild yeast drop into it. I think it would be worthwhile to take extra care with sanitation and put the sample into a clear beer bottle or other container that can be sealed/air locked. Check it, and see if it ferments without adding yeast.

Do you handle your crushed grains any place where dust could contaminate the fermenter or anything else on the cold side? I got an infection once that I traced to grain dust, and bleaching the equipment didn't kill it. I had to replace the fermenter bucket and hoses.

 

[eulipion2]

After reading this whole thread, I think I'm on Team Oxidation. Try no more than 3 weeks in the fermentor, replace your racking cane (Auto-Siphon?) and tubing, and if the tubing isn't snug use a hose clamp. If during transfer you notice bubbles near the cane/tubing connection you might (probably) have a small leak which could be oxidizing your beer.

Do you use an auto-siphon, or a plain racking cane? If a racking cane, how do you start your siphon? Either way, get a new Auto-Siphon with very snug tubing and a hose clamp if necessary.

Flush your keg with CO2 slowly, from the liquid-out post (flush from the bottom up), then purge the head space again before and after installing the lid. A little OCD, and wastes CO2, but it seems you could benefit from wasteful OCD at the moment.

 

[Brian77095]

Another thing you could try is. (and I hope I did not miss this if it was already suggested)

You and a friend Brew the same exact beer. Everything the same. Only difference is:

You take his wort and ferment it and he takes your wort and ferment it.

If it is in your fermentation or keg/bottling it will show. If you still have the bad beer then you know it is in your fermentation or bottling. If he makes the bad beer and you dont then you know it is in your Mash or boil.

You should be able to figue out exactly where the issue is occurring. It sounds like you have one single thing because it is the same off flavor every time.

Just a thought. Hope you find the issue!!

 

[Brewsncrabs]

I admit that I didn't read the last page of posts, but have you tried your buddies water? Also, how about your cooling process? How long does it take you to cool?

 

[chickypad]

Why? I have heard mostly good things about this and a couple of bad thing from self claimed 'biologists and chemists'. It may be true, but I try to take everything with a grain of salt (ha!); even the positive reviews

I currently use this to aid in helping me with mash ph.. I recently just bought ph strips and i've only used them once, I think my mash ph was around 5.0 (IIRC).. my beers are okay, nothing special. usually the aroma is pretty good, but the taste is whats usually lacking. im assuming this is due to the water content, ph, and mash ph.

anywho, sorry! not trying to make this thread about me, I am just curious why you don't like the 5.2 stuff

One concern is it has a lot of sodium, which may not be a good thing for flavor depending on your water. But also it doesn't seem to necessarily do what it's supposed to (not referencing self proclaimed anything here, but actual water experts who have authored many articles and publications regarding brewing - for example see Martin's comments here about 5.2 product in section 2 about pH).

If you make good beer not great, and they seem to be lacking in taste, I would definitely recommend learning a bit about water and how to properly manage pH and additions as they relate to flavor. It has defnitely helped my beers for the better and there are lots of testaments to that around.

Sorry OP

 

[Moose_MI]

wait. no. I never tasted a good homebrewed hefeweizen. wathever the yeast, the fermentation temperature, weizen always have problems when homemade. it's the most difficult style to brew at home, not really a basic one...

Man, I'm glad someone else read that and thought "are you freaking kidding me?"

 

[MaxStout]

[deleted by MaxStout--answer covered already]

 

[Qhrumphf]

So I got exhausted reading through the first few pages and skimmed over the rest, I didn't see this covered, so apologies if it's been covered already.

One thing that stuck out in my mind, outside of a reasonable solid process (albeit less than ideal temp control, but you monitor it well so I doubt that's your issue), is the fermenter time.

Would any of these flavors describe what you're talking about: meaty, sausage, brothy, umami? I often perceive it as cheap sausage (think cheap pizza topping), but brothy is a common descriptor. We're talking a savory, meatish character.

I notice it in most beers left in the fermenter a significant amount of time after fermentation is over. I read when I started that yeast autolysis produced rancid and burnt rubber character, and then believed what many do, that autolysis was a boogeyman that never happened to homebrew. Then I learned that it would often present (in less severe cases), as a meat, brothy, umami character, or like vitamin B. A lightbulb clicked. I started noticing it in most of my beers that spend too long in the fermenter, and others as well.

 

[mprowland]

After reading this whole thread, I think I'm on Team Oxidation. Try no more than 3 weeks in the fermentor, replace your racking cane (Auto-Siphon?) and tubing, and if the tubing isn't snug use a hose clamp. If during transfer you notice bubbles near the cane/tubing connection you might (probably) have a small leak which could be oxidizing your beer.

Do you use an auto-siphon, or a plain racking cane? If a racking cane, how do you start your siphon? Either way, get a new Auto-Siphon with very snug tubing and a hose clamp if necessary.

Flush your keg with CO2 slowly, from the liquid-out post (flush from the bottom up), then purge the head space again before and after installing the lid. A little OCD, and wastes CO2, but it seems you could benefit from wasteful OCD at the moment.

I have to admit, many of my beers in the past have been good in the hydrometer post fermentation, but bad in the keg. (My last few haven't been good anywhere, but that may be from my switch to R.O or fermentation temperatures.) I actually switched to a different Co2 tank and replaced all of the tubing because of this. I use a plain ole' racking cane. I've also never purged an empty keg with Co2, I've only burped it when full. I will look into an auto-siphon.
Once my beer starts fermenting, it only sees the "air" once; when I transfer to a keg. I'm fairly careful not to splash. Could this transfer be enough to cause this off flavor? Do I transfer to a secondary after 3 weeks or just use the keg as a secondary? Thanks again!

 

[eulipion2]

Once my beer starts fermenting, it only sees the "air" once; when I transfer to a keg. I'm fairly careful not to splash. Could this transfer be enough to cause this off flavor?

Yes, especially if you have a poor seal between the cane and tubing, but still very possible with a good seal.

Do I transfer to a secondary after 3 weeks or just use the keg as a secondary? Thanks again!

3-week primary straight into keg or bottle.