Steeping Dark Grains

[HB_ATL73]

I'll start by saying that I have been brewing for many years now and can count on one finger how many times I've made a stout.

Just not a style I love drinking enough to keep a keg filled with.

I do, however, love Guinness and want to make up a clone for St. Patty's this year.

I've done plenty of reading on steeping vs. mashing/boiling dark grains and want to reduce any astringency/excessive bitterness and try to make a clone that has that great smooth bitterness and mouthfeel of a Guinness.

My plan is to steep the roasted barley separately (1.5-2 qt per lb) for ~15 min at 150-160.

Those who use this method of adding the steep into boil kettle/fermenter- what has worked well for you?

Do I need to be concerned with oxidation adding grains to the steep and pitch straight into fermenter? Ive read before the water should be boiled and then cooled to steeping temps to reduce O2 prior to adding grains.
I may also steep and add into the boil for last ~5 min to sanitize/O2 removal but I want a smooth bitterness as possible.


Edit: I do BIAB- I could also add dark grains at end of mash for last 5-10 min?

 

[Jag75]

If your worried I'd just add to the last 10 min of mash.

 

[HB_ATL73]

That's what I may do. Sounds the easiest way

 

[bkboiler]

Make sure to check the Ale Recipes database. There's a filter box you can drop down to display only dry Irish stouts. I believe Biermuncher has a very good Guinness clone that has great reviews.

 

[RM-MN]

This won't help for this year's St. Patrick's day but I found that the harsh bitterness of a stout gets much smoother if I leave the stout sit longer after fermentation. I bottle mine and have found the stouts really smooth after a year or more. That is a long time to tie up a keg so maybe make a smaller batch and bottle it to give it time to smooth out.

 

[IslandLizard]

My dark roasts never see a boil. I steep/sparge them on the side at 150F, while boiling the rest of the batch.
Then add the black lautered potion to the kettle after it has chilled to around 150F, let sit for 10' to pasteurize, before chilling down to pitching temps.

 

[brewbama]

If you look at an extract recipe you’ll see a step where you steep certain grains for 30 min in 150*F-ish water before bring it to a boil and adding the extract.

Anything you steep in an extract recipe can certainly be steeped in an all grain recipe.

After all, in all grain recipe all you are doing is creating extract. LME or DME is simply dehydrated extract.

 

[bracconiere]

just an off thought...but roasted barley isn't converted before roasting, so it might be a good idea to add a few ounces of pale malt with it for the 150f steep....

 

[IslandLizard]

just an off thought...but roasted barley isn't converted before roasting, so it might be a good idea to add a few ounces of pale malt with it for the 150f steep....

There's nothing to convert in roasted barley, you just extract color, flavor, and aroma. It's unmalted barley that's been pyrolyzed (burned) under controlled conditions.
Most darker toasted and roasted malts and grain have no convertible starches left, the higher kilning temps destroy the starch structures.

Actually, roasted barley is very mild and sweet tasting, not bitter, astringent, acrid, or burned at all. From what I gather the husks are winnowed (blown off) during the early heating process, so the resulting roast remains very low on the astringency scale.

 

[bracconiere]

There's nothing to convert in roasted barley, you just extract color, flavor, and aroma. It's unmalted barley that's been pyrolyzed (burned) under controlled conditions.
Most darker toasted and roasted malts and grain have no convertible starches left, the higher kilning temps destroy the starch structures.

Actually, roasted barley is very mild and sweet tasting, not bitter, astringent, acrid, or burned at all. From what I gather the husks are winnowed (blown off) during the early heating process, so the resulting roast remains very low on the astringency scale.

but BeerSmith tells me it has a 'potential' of 1.025SG, but without the enzymes it wouldn't.....

 

[troglodytes]

I've begun to find I like the results of my stouts and porters better when I steep the dark grain separately. I had steeped while while the base grains were mashing focusing on keeping the mash at about 5.6pH and then adding the dark grains at the start of the boil.

What about in a black IPA (Wookey Jack), though? You'd want both a low pH wort to control hop astringency, and you'd want to dry it out as opposed to a stout where you'd want a thicker body. So would it be better in that situation mash all grains together from the start?

 

[IslandLizard]

but BeerSmith tells me it has a 'potential' of 1.025SG, but without the enzymes it wouldn't.....

Yeah... hmm...
Unfermentable, higher, complex sugars perhaps, due to the roasting process? It does taste remarkably sweet.

 

[Factor]

When I make stout I steep the dark grains in cool water then put it in the fridge for 24 hours. I add the results to the kettle for the last 10 minutes. Works great.
Last time i forgot and added it until after I cooled the wort, with no ill effect.

 

[HB_ATL73]

My dark roasts never see a boil

Thanks for the input. Do you think that boiling the steeped dark wort potentially intensifies/increases harshness?
In my mind I cant imagine it would since there would be no presence of the grain? This is one of the concerns I had and one reason I may do the method you mentioned

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Another approach would be to cold steep your dark grains then add your black water (I wouldn’t call it wort) at flameout. OP are you wanting something like Guinness drought? That is hardly roasty nor bitter to me, but that is a matter of perception and taste.

 

[bracconiere]

doesn't guinness use nitrogen for the creamy feel also?

Unfermentable, higher, complex sugars perhaps, due to the roasting process?

that would be black patent malt though....?

and there is amylase enzymes in saliva...

 

[HB_ATL73]

OP are you wanting something like Guinness drought?

Yes, just as you mentioned its hardly bitter or roasty to me as well that's why I want to minimize any harshness or bite from the dark grains. I am considering using debittered black malt alongside the roasted to darken it without the flavor

 

[HB_ATL73]

doesn't guinness use nitrogen for the creamy feel also

Yes, unfortunately, but I will do with what I have to get as close as possible to the real thing.