Starting with Extract Kits vs. All-Grain?

[AZJ0SH]

I am new to brewing, and I was curious to know if any of you have made the jump to all-grain or partial-mash right away, or just stuck with the extract kits?

The reason I want to brew is mostly as a hobby and to experiment with different flavors, recipes, and styles of beer. Should I stick with extract kits to start just to understand the brewing process, or can I make the (more expensive) jump and go with all-grain or partial-mash brews?

I would love to be able to just follow some recipes, buy all the ingredients locally, and get brewing, instead of buying a kit that just tells me what to do.

What would you do in my situation, learn the process via extract kits, or jump straight into "real" brewing?

My overall goal is to brew commercially in 5-10 years, by the time I am 40 I want to open a microbrewery. I know that's a long way off but I want to make sure I approach brewing in a way that will help me with my overall goals.

I want to come up with a good session beer, somehting dark, that I can drink on a regular basis. Probably something like a scottish ale or amber ale.

I plan on purchasing this kit, unless you guys think there is a bette rone out there: http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/...arter-kits/essential-brewing-starter-kit.html

 

[fmr_army]

I started off with extract kits and then did some extract recipes. After ten or so batches, I jumped to all grain.

It has worked for me: extract kits got me going and I was able to get the basics right. The extract recipes helped me understand flavors and such. The all grain jump kinda brought me to the final(ish) stage. For me, going al grain at the beginning would have been almost totally overwhelming.

 

[solbes]

Kits are an inexpensive and easy way for most people to try out the hobby, see if they like it, and get their feet wet with the basics (sanitation, proper yeast health and pitch temp, optimizing fermentation temps, racking, bottling, etc). 1-3 extract kits to get the basics right. Then go partial mash for 2-5 brews to optimize your mashing process, then go all grain. Sort of the formula I followed.

You have some lofty and admirable goals. You seem pretty serious about it. Maybe make the jump to AG if you have researched and feel like you could handle all those basics right away. You will also have new things on your plate like grain crush, water profile, mashing/lautering equipment, maintaining mash temps, etc.

The jump is not that big, but you do have double the things to learn on your first brew day. Many people do make the jump right away, so its really up to you and your comfort level.

 

[freisste]

Some say skip extract, but it's really up to you. I think it is a good way to do a lot of important brewing things without worrying about every facet (it skips mashing and all things related to efficiency).

That being said, once you have everything required for extract brewing, a $1 paint strainer bag gets you to PM BIAB.

Then a larger pot gets you to AG.

You don't need multiple pots, a brew stand, an igloo cooler with false bottom, etc. AG can actually be pretty simple.

 

[knelson13A]

I'm a new brewer as well, and I would like to get to all-grain brewing sooner than later as well. I'm sticking with extract for the first few, though. I went with the Northern Brewer Deluxe Starter Kit and got their Irish Red extract recipe kit with it.

I think starting with extract to get the basics down is not a bad idea. You can still expirement with recipes and flavors some, without jumping right into all-grain or partial-mash. My second brew is not a kit, but an extract IPA I put together with the help of the guys at my LHBS. I'm planning on at least one more extract brew before stepping up to partial-mash. Going to do a few of those before moving on to all-grain. That will also help give me time to build up the necessary equipment, so I'm not buying everything at once.

 

[brew_ny]

well I have not brewed long just started 7-11-2013 but I did a bunch of reading before I even thought about brewing

I will be brewing my 8 th batch tomorrow I brew 11.5 gallon batches with 13 gallon boils

I did not brew any kits I just followed recipes from the database here, I did two extract brews with steeping grains and then two partial mashes with extract

tomorrow will be my fourth all grain brew, I was going to start with all grain brewing from the beginning

I am glad I did not as I learn many things a long the way, about wort handling the need for having away to cool it when you do a full boil. the partial mash help me to learn the mashing process but still made it so I could easily hit the OG number by adding extract

the first brew I did was a fifteen minute boil cascade pale ale, it was fast to brew and tasted great

good luck with you brewing

S_M

 

[AZJ0SH]

Kits are an inexpensive and easy way for most people to try out the hobby, see if they like it, and get their feet wet with the basics (sanitation, proper yeast health and pitch temp, optimizing fermentation temps, racking, bottling, etc). 1-3 extract kits to get the basics right. Then go partial mash for 2-5 brews to optimize your mashing process, then go all grain. Sort of the formula I followed.

You have some lofty and admirable goals. You seem pretty serious about it. Maybe make the jump to AG if you have researched and feel like you could handle all those basics right away. You will also have new things on your plate like grain crush, water profile, mashing/lautering equipment, maintaining mash temps, etc.

The jump is not that big, but you do have double the things to learn on your first brew day. Many people do make the jump right away, so its really up to you and your comfort level.

I have done a few extract kit brews with friends, so I am somewhat familiar with the brewing process but I think I should at least do 2-3 batches just to get familiar with it again. I found some really good posts on here that explain the different types of kits out there which has really helped.

I have a stack of books I have been reading on the brewing process, I am trying to research as much as possible before I make the jump into AG or even PM.

I think the best thing for me is going to be pretty much what everyone has said, just do a few batches of each and work my way up to AG brewing.

I am seeing that AG is going to be a lot more expensive than I initially thought as well, my $500 budget is slowly turning into a $1500 budget.

Thanks for the info everyone!

 

[PRE66_6TART]

I started all grain on my first batch. Actually I did one extract batch many years ago with a friend. Then somehow several years elapsed before I got started again on my own. I think part of the reason was that starting with condensed pre-made wort and adding some hops and fermenting wasn't that satisfying to me. Anyway I probably made more mistakes starting all grain than I otherwise would have, but it wasn't that hard and the beer came out alright. Actually I think the biggest mistakes I made had to do with fermentation temps and yeast pitch rates and oxygenating and such, so an extract batch might not have come out much better. It depends I guess on what your goal is. If your worried about investing a lot of time in your first one and it not coming out right, start simple. If, like me, you just want to jump into it and start learning and are not really worried about making some mistakes then go for it . You probably won't screw it up that badly and by your third batch or so you will be pretty good at it.

What I'm doing now is alternating between small experimental batches to play with different ingredients, and larger batches using recipes from his site so I still have plenty of good high quality beer to drink and share with friends.

 

[AZJ0SH]

Some say skip extract, but it's really up to you. I think it is a good way to do a lot of important brewing things without worrying about every facet (it skips mashing and all things related to efficiency).

That being said, once you have everything required for extract brewing, a $1 paint strainer bag gets you to PM BIAB.

Then a larger pot gets you to AG.

You don't need multiple pots, a brew stand, an igloo cooler with false bottom, etc. AG can actually be pretty simple.

Are there any DIY articles out there for making mash tins and such?

I was going to buy a 10-gallon pot, but that might be too small for AG?

What is BIAB? Sorry I am not familiar with the terms here.

 

[CUrchin]

I've been brewing since last Christmas. I'd suggest a few extract kits to get your boil/chill/ferment procedures down. On AG, if you don't want to spend money look into BIAB (Brew in a Bag). Search here and around the internet. It is all grain brewing, and all you need is a pot and a bag. That's what I do and it is cheap.

 

[PRE66_6TART]

Are there any DIY articles out there for making mash tins and such?

I was going to buy a 10-gallon pot, but that might be too small for AG?

What is BIAB? Sorry I am not familiar with the terms here.

BIAB (brew in a bag) means no need for a mash tun or sparging, just a bag in a pot. I use an eight gallon pot and its always been enough for me.

 

[BigFloyd]

Are there any DIY articles out there for making mash tins and such?

I was going to buy a 10-gallon pot, but that might be too small for AG?

What is BIAB? Sorry I am not familiar with the terms here.

BIAB stands for "Brew In A Bag" which is a type of all-grain brewing. I do a variation of that called "E-BIAB" using an electronically controlled electric hot water heater element to do the mash and boil.

Since you live in Phoenix, I would strongly encourage you to get set up to control your fermentation temps before even thinking about jumping into all-grain. In Texas, my house A/C is set on 75*F much of the year. That's way too hot for properly fermenting an ale. My beers ferment in a freezer (bought used on Craigslist) plugged into an outlet box regulated by an STC-1000 controller ($18-19 on Amazon). It lets you set the temp to whatever is best for the yeast being used. Some folks don't have the space for that or choose to use other methods which require daily attention.

You can brew some downright awesome beers using extract (or partial-mash) if you use enough yeast (liquid yeast requires making a starter, start off using dry yeast) and pitch/ferment at the right temps.

 

[AZJ0SH]

I've been brewing since last Christmas. I'd suggest a few extract kits to get your boil/chill/ferment procedures down. On AG, if you don't want to spend money look into BIAB (Brew in a Bag). Search here and around the internet. It is all grain brewing, and all you need is a pot and a bag. That's what I do and it is cheap.

Thanks for the info, this seems like the way to go! Will this effect the beer at all in terms of taste, mouthfeel, flavor, etc?

BIAB stands for "Brew In A Bag" which is a type of all-grain brewing. I do a variation of that called "E-BIAB" using an electronically controlled electric hot water heater element to do the mash and boil.

Since you live in Phoenix, I would strongly encourage you to get set up to control your fermentation temps before even thinking about jumping into all-grain. In Texas, my house A/C is set on 75*F much of the year. That's way too hot for properly fermenting an ale. My beers ferment in a freezer (bought used on Craigslist) plugged into an outlet box regulated by an STC-1000 controller ($18-19 on Amazon). It lets you set the temp to whatever is best for the yeast being used. Some folks don't have the space for that or choose to use other methods which require daily attention.

You can brew some downright awesome beers using extract (or partial-mash) if you use enough yeast (liquid yeast requires making a starter, start off using dry yeast) and pitch/ferment at the right temps.

I keep my A/C at 78 but my house usually stays around 78-80 degrees depending on the room. I did not realize that would be too warm, so I may have to rethink that part.

Do I need to worry about temperature with extract kits?

So it's just a matter of learning the recipes, and changing up the extracts?

 

[tx-brewer]

This thread is gold

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/

 

[BigFloyd]

Thanks for the info, this seems like the way to go! Will this effect the beer at all in terms of taste, mouthfeel, flavor, etc?



I keep my A/C at 78 but my house usually stays around 78-80 degrees depending on the room. I did not realize that would be too warm, so I may have to rethink that part.

Do I need to worry about temperature with extract kits?

So it's just a matter of learning the recipes, and changing up the extracts?

Ferment temp requirements depend on the yeast strain and are the same for extract, partial-mash and AG. For most ales, your talking low-mid 60s for the first 4-5 days then mid-upper 60s the rest of the ferment period.

Sorry my friend, fermenting at your house temps would produce some really nasty-tasting beer. When the fermentation is really going strong, the temp inside the bucket/carboy can get 8-10*F higher than the surrounding air. Having a way to control this is fundamental to making good beer.

 

[NickTheGreat]

I did 2 extract kits. Then a partial mash kit. Then switched to AG. i think it helped me learn and build up my confidence.

With your experience, you may not need to start there. It is a few less $$$ of initial investment, if that matters.

 

[Roadie]

We starting brewing a couple of months ago and just finished our second 11g batch. We skipped straight to all grain and brewed at a place in our town that rents their 1/2 barrel equipment for 4 hours at a time. They have a guy who helps you if you need it. I did a LOT of research beforehand and converted an old fridge into a fermenter before we brewed.

I figured why learn extract or similar if that's not how I wanted to brew.

I also skipped learning how to bottle and went straight to kegging. We are just inching up the learning curve but everything we are learning is relevant to what we want to do.

 

[solbes]

Yeah if your house is in the upper 70's, I would prioritize a fermentation fridge/freezer with a temp controller ahead of mashing equipment. Sometimes you can get the fridge for free (got mine from my BIL since the thermostat was broken). Added a $75 digital temp controller and it works perfectly. This will also give you the ability to cold crash ales (avoids racking to secondary for most brews) and the ability to make Lagers (ferments in the upper 40's F and then lagering around 35F).

Brew in a bag is a very cheap way to get into partial mash and all grain. I would suggest a custom made bag made out of voile and at least a 10 gallon pot. A second pot that's 5 gallons or so allows you to dunk sparge, gaining you an additional 5-10% in efficiency. Finally a grain crusher is nice, but you can get your grains double crushed from most brew shops. BIAB is my method, and I bet I have done 35 AG BIAB batches and have no immediate plans to switch to a mash tun/lauter setup. Maybe someday when I make a dedicated brew room.

 

[CUrchin]

Will this effect the beer at all in terms of taste, mouthfeel, flavor, etc?

Absolutely not! BIAB is just a method for mashing that doesn't require a separate vessel. While you are doing a few extract brews to get your procedure down, spend some time researching BIAB. It's really easy! And listen to the advice about fermentation temps.

 

[unionrdr]

I started with extract brews a couple years ago. I did one kit,then started modifying them to make my own beers out of Cooper's cans,plain DME's & various hops. Then I started doing all plain extracts to do my own bittering. I then got a nylon 5G strainer bag & began Partial Boil,Partial Mash Brew In A Bag In the same 5 gallon SS stock pot I've been using since the beginning.
I can easilly mash 5-6 pounds of grains in 2 gallons of local spring water I get for 25c/gallon. I stir in the grains to break up dough balls & evenly wet the grains & get the temp up to 153-156F. Put the lid on & wrap it up in my quilted winter hunting coat for the 1 hour mash. Great way to maintain mash temps with biab. Then lift up grain bag & place it in a collander on top of the BK/MT to drain. During the mash,I heat my sparge water (1.5-1.75 gallons) to 165-168F. I sanitize a 2C Pyrex measure to slowly pour the sparge water over the open grain bag to sparge more sweet wort out of them & into the brew kettle. A 2 gallon SS stock pot works fine for heating sparge water for me. It wirked so well on my last batch,that a OG1.061 recipe yeilded an OG 1.074. Even after the top off & wort were well stirred several minutes & quite roughly at that. So PB/PM BIAB can work very well for little extra investment.
I just preferred to lear a good process & what works well with what before moving on to the next level. So don't be in too much of a hurry to learn what you need to know to be successful.

 

[AZJ0SH]

This thread is gold

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/

Thanks for the link, I bookmarked that for later.

Ferment temp requirements depend on the yeast strain and are the same for extract, partial-mash and AG. For most ales, your talking low-mid 60s for the first 4-5 days then mid-upper 60s the rest of the ferment period.

Sorry my friend, fermenting at your house temps would produce some really nasty-tasting beer. When the fermentation is really going strong, the temp inside the bucket/carboy can get 8-10*F higher than the surrounding air. Having a way to control this is fundamental to making good beer.

I spent 3-4 hours this morning looking into Fermentation Temperature and it looks like I will definitely need to build a insulated box or buy an old fridge/freezer.

I put a thermometer in my closet last night and it stayed at 74-76 all night but that looks like it's still too warm.

 

[BigFloyd]

I put a thermometer in my closet last night and it stayed at 74-76 all night but that looks like it's still too warm.

Unfortunately yes, but now that you recognize that as a problem, you can begin to take steps to remedy that before your next batch.

 

[seckert]

Thanks for the link, I bookmarked that for later.



I spent 3-4 hours this morning looking into Fermentation Temperature and it looks like I will definitely need to build a insulated box or buy an old fridge/freezer.

I put a thermometer in my closet last night and it stayed at 74-76 all night but that looks like it's still too warm.

another way to control your fermentation temps is to use a swamp cooler. I did this before I had a ferm chamber. take a big plastic tub and put water in it...then to get the temp of the water down have 6-10 frozen water bottles...once the temp gets down in the water you need to check the water temp twice a day and add frozen bottles if needed to keep temp down. I did it this way for a couple years since I had the tub and water bottles are free...just grab them from people throwing them away at work or if you drink bottled water don't throw away some of them.

 

[Edbert]

For most ales, your talking low-mid 60s for the first 4-5 days then mid-upper 60s the rest of the ferment period.

Not trying to call anyone out here, I am a noob and I know it but...
Doesn't the strain of yeast have a lot to do with that? I mean i have seen some that say 75 or below is okay.

 

[seckert]

yes but if the yeast says 75 that is wort temp and not air temp. if your air temp is 75 then your wort temp "can" be as high as 85. while I doubt it is always that much warmer you want to try your best to keep the yeast where it is happy and 75 air temp probably isn't going to do that.

 

[STL_Lucas]

I second the swamp cooler idea. For someone that is just starting and does not have the room for a freezer (or the initial money after buying your kits) this seems to work pretty well. I brewed my first batch a few weeks ago and through fermentation I've been able to keep the temp at about 68 +/- a degree or so throughout the day. My AC is set on 75 and I put my fermentation bucket in a 27g tote, filled with water to the beer line on the bucket and rotate 2 or 3 frozen water bottles twice a day. I think the key to making this work is water volume. Get a bigger tote closer to 25 - 30 gallons instead of a small one. More water volume keeps the temperature more stable. Obviously this will limit you to ales and you wont' be able to brew any lagers but you can always invest in a freezer down the road.

 

[Ridire]

I do all grain BIAB. I could have easily done this right out of the gate and wish I had (I only did maybe 3 extract brews before making the jump). The only things needed to go from extract to all grain BIAB is a bigger pot, probably a better heat source (I do outdoor propane) and a basic knowledge of what happens to sugars converted at 150 degrees v 170+ degrees.

I have a lot to improve upon and learn yet but I don't think doing extract first made the learning any easier.

 

[BigFloyd]

Not trying to call anyone out here, I am a noob and I know it but...
Doesn't the strain of yeast have a lot to do with that? I mean i have seen some that say 75 or below is okay.

No worries, but what does "most ales" mean to you? The most commonly-used ale yeasts that home brewers use tend to be US-05/WLP001, Nottingham, S-04, WLP002/1968ESB, 1056, BRY-97 and similar strains. All of those ferment very nicely starting off in 63-65*F territory (subtract 5*F for Notty) and then allowing them to slowly raise up after 4-5 days to around 66-68*F to finish. If you want to ferment with any of those yeasts at 75*F, however, please don't let me dissuade you.

What I said obviously doesn't apply to saisons or even to some of the abbey ale yeasts (which you start at 64-66*F and take up 2*F per day until you hit 74-76*F).

 

[homebrewnewbie]

I started with two of the brewer's best partial mash kits, then made a lauter tun and went to all grain. It was a pretty easy transition, especially because I ponied-up 27 bucks for BeerSmith. Take the plunge!

Side note: be sure to have an efficient way to cool down five gallons if hot wort.

 

[homebrewnewbie]

Ferment temp requirements depend on the yeast strain and are the same for extract, partial-mash and AG. For most ales, your talking low-mid 60s for the first 4-5 days then mid-upper 60s the rest of the ferment period. Sorry my friend, fermenting at your house temps would produce some really nasty-tasting beer. When the fermentation is really going strong, the temp inside the bucket/carboy can get 8-10*F higher than the surrounding air. Having a way to control this is fundamental to making good beer.

I ferment in my apartment. I found a method on YouTube that works great, keeps my temp around 69 F, which is fine for a basic pale ale.

Here's what I do:
-have a round, six inch high plastic storage container with enough circumference to fit your fermenting vessel)
-fill with 3 inches of water
-set the fermentor in said container
-wrap the fermentor in a towel, allow the bottom of the towel to sit in the water
-pour cold water in said towel to make it damp
-place a small fan facing this set-up and turn it in high

What happens is the towel around the fermentor wicks water up around it, and the fan helps the water evaporate, drawing heat from the fermentor. You'll have to add a little water to the base every other day or so.