Starter Help for Noob!!

[Dut31]

Made my first starter today for a black IPA with OG 1.075. I think I messed up. Only have the 1 L flask from Northern Brewer and tried to follow Mrmalty's calculator that said for a 1liter starter, I'd need two yeast smack packs. So thats what i did. Made a 1L starter and pitched 2 packs into it. Is it even possible to get growth out of that? Did I just waste $$ on yeast? Any suggestions on what to do next? Can I still brew tomorrow and pitch it?

Thanks!

 

[joel4482]

If you are using smack packs you shouldn't need a starter unless they are old. If you are doing a five gallon batch you only need one smack pack even with 1.075 OG. If you wanted to play it safe you could do a starter on one smack pack for one batch with that high of OG. With smack pack you only need to give them 3-6 hrs after smacking to pitch. If you gave one smack pack overnight to get going in a starter it should do well in a high OG beer. All that said $7 extra on a smack pack is not that much to ensure your beer turns out well. You didn't mess up. You can still brew tomorrow.

 

[Dut31]

If you are using smack packs you shouldn't need a starter unless they are old. If you are doing a five gallon batch you only need one smack pack even with 1.075 OG. If you wanted to play it safe you could do a starter on one smack pack for one batch with that high of OG. With smack pack you only need to give them 3-6 hrs after smacking to pitch. If you gave one smack pack overnight to get going in a starter it should do well in a high OG beer. All that said $7 extra on a smack pack is not that much to ensure your beer turns out well. You didn't mess up. You can still brew tomorrow.

Thanks man. So much conflicting info on yeast starters. I just want to improve my beer.

What you said makes sense but since I did pitch 2 packs into a starter, am I basically just "wakening" them up? I'll still be able to pitch the whole flask tomorrow about 16 hours after starting the starter...? No?

 

[Revvy]

If you are using smack packs you shouldn't need a starter unless they are old. If you are doing a five gallon batch you only need one smack pack even with 1.075 OG. If you wanted to play it safe you could do a starter on one smack pack for one batch with that high of OG. With smack pack you only need to give them 3-6 hrs after smacking to pitch. If you gave one smack pack overnight to get going in a starter it should do well in a high OG beer. All that said $7 extra on a smack pack is not that much to ensure your beer turns out well. You didn't mess up. You can still brew tomorrow.

Really..where'd you hear this BS from???? Certainly not from folks who know what they are doing...Not necesarily to make a starter??

It's really a good idea to make starters when using ANY liguid yeast, smack pack, tube, or the jar of washed at the back of your fridge, for all beers above 1.020 OG...

The biggest reason I suggest folks make a starter is if you make one you'll have peace of mind.

And you won't be starting an "is my yeast dead" thread in a couple of days. (Which then one of us will answer with...."Had you made a starter..."

Making a starter first insures that your yeast is still alive and viable before you dump it in your beer. You will be less likely to start one of those "is my yeast dead?" threads that are on here every day.

You will also ensure that you have enough yeast usually the tubes and smack packs are a lot less yeast that you really should use for healthy fermentation.

Making a starter also usually means your beer will take off sooner, because the first thing that the little buggers do in the presence of wort (whether in a flask or in a fermenter) is have an orgy to reproduce enough cells to do the job...So it won't take such a long time in the fermenter since they started doing it in the flask.

Additionally it is better for the yeast to consume and reproduce incrementally rather than just dumping them into the fermenter...The yeast will be less stressed out than if you just dump them in.

Stressed out yeast can lead to a lot of off flavors...maybe even (though rare) the dreaded autolysis....Or the curse of 1.030....getting a stuck fermentation because the yeast have bit the dust.

So making a starter proves your yeast is still healthy, allows you to grow enough yeast to do the job, cuts down on lag time, and ensures that you will not get off flavors or stuck ferementations from stressed out yeast.

Also has to do with the actual pitch rates of the smack packs and tubes, and has to do with the data that Jamil Z has on his mr malty website.

I don't know where the 1.070 idiocy came from but the source most of us use, including the OP evidently who understands, uses.

I'll quote some of it, but really you should look at the stuff there;

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Ales & Lagers

The general consensus on pitching rates is that you want to pitch around 1 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato. A little less for an ale, a little more for a lager. George Fix states about 1.5 million for a lager and 0.75 million for an ale in his book, An Analysis of Brewing Techniques. Other literature cites a slightly higher amount. I'm going with Fix's numbers and that is what the pitching calculator uses.
The Math

If you're curious, here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

* There is about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 gallons.

* A degree Plato is about 1.004 of original gravity. Just divide the OG by 4 to get Plato (e.g., 1.048 is 12 degrees Plato).

So, for a 1.048 wort pitching into 5.25 gallons you need about 180 billion cells.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (12) = 180,000,000,000

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort. If you want a quick way of doing a back of the envelope estimate, that is really close to 0.75 billion cells for each point of gravity per gallon of wort. Double that to 1.5 billion for a lager.
Pitching From Tubes, Packs, or Dry Yeast

Both White Labs and Wyeast make fantastic products and you can't go wrong with either one. There are differences between their strains and each brand has pluses and minuses yet neither is better than the other across the board. Use the brand your local homebrew shop carries, if you need a way to decide.

A White Labs tube has between 70 and 120 billion cells of 100% viable yeast, depending on the yeast strain. Some cells are much larger than others and there are more or less per ml based on size. (The information on the White Labs web site stating 30 to 50 billion cells is out of date.) We can just assume there are around 100 billion very healthy yeast. You would need 2 tubes if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts.

A Wyeast Activator pack (the really big ones) and the pitchable tubes have an average of 100 billion cells of 100% viable yeast. The smaller packs are around 15-18 billion cells. You would need 2 of the large packs if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts. For the small packs, you'd need eleven of them!

But to make it easier he has a great pitch rate calculator http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

And according to his numbers on his calculator, really any beer above 1.020, you should be making a starter for.

Me personally when I use liquid yeast I just make a starter. I may not be as anal as some brewers and makes sure that I have the exact cellcount for whatever gravity beer I am making, but I do make one for the above reasons I mentioned, namely peace of mid, and a reduction in lag time.

Seriously, that's one way to insure you have clean tasting beer, not to stress out or underpitch your yeast.

The only reason NOT to make a starter is simple laziness....

And as to smaking the pack...

From the horse's mouth.

From the Wyeast FAQ website:

3. Does the package need to be fully swollen before pitching?

No, The package can be pitched before activating, or at anytime during the activation process. The activation process "jump starts" the culture's metabolism, minimizing the lag phase.

You don't even really have to smack if you don't want to if you are making a starter, but you definitely don't need to wait for it to inflate. It sound's like you need to be making a decent sized starter, so that's the time you need to factor for, not whether it needs to be smacked or not.

But starters....a definite, especially you don't start one of the "is my yeast dead?" threads.....

 

[VTBrewer]

To further comment on smack packs/starters, its even part of the instructions for a propagator. It clearly says it cannot ferment 5 gallons of beer, though you may have decent luck, why bother? An activator is hit or miss. I make a starter always with either.

 

[iswenson]

To further comment on smack packs/starters, its even part of the instructions for a propagator. It clearly says it cannot ferment 5 gallons of beer, though you may have decent luck, why bother? An activator is hit or miss. I make a starter always with either.

I don't think the OP was trying to pitch an propagator, although I am not sure. Most kits that have a smack pack come w/ the activator.

Wyeast claims The Activator™ is designed to inoculate five gallons of wort (up to 1.060 SG) providing the pitching rate recommended by professional brewers.
and The PROPAGATOR™ has a minimum of 25 billion cells of pure yeast, plus an internal nutrient packet. The PROPAGATOR™ is designed to inoculate a one liter starter* before adding to five gallons of wort (up to 1.060 SG).

keyword is claims... You should still make a starter for your beer even w/ an activator. It will decrease lag time, and decrease the number of people who think they ruined there beer. By decreasing lag time you decrease the chance of anything else eating the sugars in the wort and getting off-flavors.

Listen to revvy, I have used his advice numerous times and my beer has only become better.

 

[SwampassJ]

Mr. Malty says you'll need 283 Billion yeasts and 2 Smack Packs in 1 L shaken starter should net you that. A pack of brand new as in just made this morning yeast should have ~100 Billion cells. You should consider a bigger starter container in the future, you can use more starter liquid and 1 pack for similar results, and they don't have to be a flask.

Mr. Malty uses professional pitching rates and will ensure fast start and good healthy yeast. You can also skip the starter and follow their recommendation on how many packages to pitch as well. Just play with the settings. A simple starter is one that is just oxygenated at the start and left alone and they blow if you need a lot of yeast.

 

[Dut31]

I don't think the OP was trying to pitch an propagator, although I am not sure. Most kits that have a smack pack come w/ the activator.

Wyeast claims The Activator™ is designed to inoculate five gallons of wort (up to 1.060 SG) providing the pitching rate recommended by professional brewers.
and The PROPAGATOR™ has a minimum of 25 billion cells of pure yeast, plus an internal nutrient packet. The PROPAGATOR™ is designed to inoculate a one liter starter* before adding to five gallons of wort (up to 1.060 SG).

keyword is claims... You should still make a starter for your beer even w/ an activator. It will decrease lag time, and decrease the number of people who think they ruined there beer. By decreasing lag time you decrease the chance of anything else eating the sugars in the wort and getting off-flavors.

Listen to revvy, I have used his advice numerous times and my beer has only become better.

I did use Activator (2 packs) in the starter. And what you and Revvy say makes perfect sense. I understand the concept of a starter and plan making one for most if not all my beers moving forward. And at the same time used Mrmaltys calculator to accommodate my 1 L flask. I appreciate all the feedback. Now i know i should use a larger container for the starter (growler, flask, etc) with one pack.

The starter has been going for just over 12 hours. I swirl it as often as I can. There is some good activity. I can actually hear it 'fizzing' almost. I am going to brew this afternoon and pitch the whole thing.

Thanks