What rate do you use at home?
Spike Complete System
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augiedoggy
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about 1gpm. I used to do 1.8gpm (pump flow wide open on my little dc pump) and thats when I averaged 88% instead of 91.. I started doing a proper mashout at the same time I lowered my sparge flowrate and my efficiency jumped the 3 points so it may be of the two or a combo of both im not sure.
just yesterday we were brewing an ipa and during the sparge I did a little experiment.. at the end of the sparge I measured gravity at 1.019.... I shut off flow and then waited about 10 minutes. I turned the flow back on and took a sample moments later when the wort below the fb had cleared out of the line and the gravity had jumped to 1.024... this is why batch sparging nets higher results for some. at the end of the day more/longer exposure with the sparge water and the grain can net higher efficiency.
Are you sure you didn't mean the opposite?
In my experience having the probe in the mash tun will provide a temperature reading regardless of flow rate. Having the temperature probe in a tee on the outlet (as mine is), requires a minimum flowrate threshold before it can read correctly. My flow rate dropped to the point of no flow because of grain bed compaction, and my temp probe reading plummetted from 150 to 146 in minutes. I checked the mash temp with my thermapen and it was still at 150, so I bumped up the pump flow rate a hair and the temp reading returned to normal.
You are convincing me that I need a flow meter though - any recommendations for TC compatible ones?
When I brewed on Saturday I did a 40 min sparge so I was right at a quart a min. My numbers are close but my efficiency is down. Had a target of 1.044 and hit 1.042.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
you are right about the flowrate but since I can see I have a flow rate with the flow meter and I am recirculating the entire time and only care about wort temp while recirculating its honestly the most accurate way for me to know actual wort temp leaving my mash tun and losses vs going into the mt. having one probe in the sidewall in one system vs the tee in the other has shown me the tee is more accurate here for the reasons you stated above but when that happens and my sidewall probe is not changing correctly its an indicator my flow rate may have been too high and ive compacted my grainbed so I will stir it up at that point and start over and slightly lower flow (4gpm vs 5 for example)
in any other instance like a BK or HLT I would NOT put the probe in the exit path tee.
I use a flow meter just like this one with TC adapters on each end... it has to be disassembled and cleaned but the sanitary ones are hundreds more$ this one is made of the proper material that is stable at mash and sparge temps and foodgrade.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Dwyer-...792842?hash=item23941d230a:g:m2kAAOSwY~laH~qf
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augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
what was your mash efficiency? did you check the gravity of your mash before sparging? first thing is to rule out which area of the process is low.
I didn’t check the mash efficiency, with a target of 1.044 what should the first running’s be?
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I dont know off hand. this is one of those areas where every system is different... for example we had a wort gravity of 1.074 before sparge on yesterdays brew. after sparging we were down to 1.057 preboil (if I rememebr right) ... after to record this numbers on a few brew sessions you will find that you will normally see consisnt number values and amounts and can go from there to see what was off... most estimated values are shown in beersmith but some like the presparge mash running dont appear to be.
Thanks!
Actually my pre-boil was 1.042, I never measured the post boil as I should have.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
So you dont know what you OG of your beers is? its the most important measurement and needed to calculate you ABV. Depending on your boiloff you can still hit your target through boiloff rate and sparge gravity.
I actually measure pre boil and post but forgot on this batch
@augiedoggy how fine do you mill your grain? I have bought my own mill now and plan to grind finer that I have been getting. Also any tips you can give to avoid a stuck sparge using said grind would be cool too.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I use a credit card to set thickness.. 1.030 as far as stuck sparges.. I dont have the issue bat as we discussed its because I start flow very low for mash recirc and only do it at less than 2gpm and sparge at 1gpm or less which should not be pulling and compressing the grain bed enough to cause any channeling.
Thanks man, that was my thought as well but wanted to clarify.
How are you guys handling adding lactic acid to the sparge water? I always have more sparge water in the HLT due to keeping the HERMS covered. If I add the amount of acid per beersmith to the sparge water, it will not nearly be enough.
I use brun water and use the sparge acid tab to figure amount to add. Just put in the amount of water you have in your HLT and it will tell you. For me it’s usually 6 or 7 ml
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I think what hes trying to say is due to the herms, he would have to treat a lot of water that he wouldnt be using which would be true.
I use a rims myself. I think you can dump whatever water you dont need right before sparging and then add minerals and acid...
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He asked how we handle adding acid to sparge water and this is what I do. For me it’s hard to see the level of water once it drops below the coil so I treat the whole volume. The remaining hot water is used for cleaning. Sorry I should have clarified I treat the entire volume. My wife says I’m bad at communicating clearly
Gibberoni
Well-Known Member
I think I am going to record my next brewing session and share it with you all, to help me identify where I am doing things wrong. I brewed a milk stout the other weekend, with an estimated OG of 1.054, and ended up around 1.040. I just cant figure out what I am doing wrong. I have tried recirculating faster/slower, hotter/colder batch sparge, fly sparge, more acid, less acid and every combination in between.
I am going to document my next brew from top to bottom, record the process, edit it up (so its not 4 hours long) and post it on youtube for you all to help me out (if you can). Its getting to the point my wife is complaining about the new beers I am brewing. I used to dump 1 maybe 2 batches a year due to taste or infection, but since I got this system I have dumped 4 batches, because they either tasted like malty water or nothing like what I was planning (my lager literally tasted like water, and has an ABV of 1.6%, despite OG on beersmith estimating around 1.056, and actually got 1.028). I have maintained a steady brew pace of ~12-14 brews per year, so throwing out almost 25% is quite disheartening.
I am going to document my next brew from top to bottom, record the process, edit it up (so its not 4 hours long) and post it on youtube for you all to help me out (if you can). Its getting to the point my wife is complaining about the new beers I am brewing. I used to dump 1 maybe 2 batches a year due to taste or infection, but since I got this system I have dumped 4 batches, because they either tasted like malty water or nothing like what I was planning (my lager literally tasted like water, and has an ABV of 1.6%, despite OG on beersmith estimating around 1.056, and actually got 1.028). I have maintained a steady brew pace of ~12-14 brews per year, so throwing out almost 25% is quite disheartening.
So first question, are your volumes ending up correct and matching up with Beersmith? If so then you have a mashing issue going on.
How are you crushing your grain? Too fine will result in channeling and too coarse will result in less starch exposed to the mash.
How slow is a slow recirculation? It should be pretty much as slow as you can go while still having flow.
Have you checked the calibration of your thermocouples against a thermapen or other accurate thermometer?
I can tell you that I am dialing mine in now. Last brew mash eff was about 82%.
But my Brewhouse Eff was only about 70% so I know where I need to improve and I am getting closer.
to tag on what MadKing is saying I really made sure I had correct volumes in BeerSmith and then dialed off that.
Brewed my first lager today and here are the results
Pre-boil Gravity = 1.039 and that equates to 84% mash Eff
Post-boil Gravity = 1.046 and that equals to 75% brewhouse Eff
all of this with a course crush at about .040 and a very slow fly sparge.
I think I found my sparge technique and mash tech, now just need a finer crush and see what happens.
The above numbers were what Beersmith predicted I would hit and I did based off my Eff inputs and other data.
Pre-boil Gravity = 1.039 and that equates to 84% mash Eff
Post-boil Gravity = 1.046 and that equals to 75% brewhouse Eff
all of this with a course crush at about .040 and a very slow fly sparge.
I think I found my sparge technique and mash tech, now just need a finer crush and see what happens.
The above numbers were what Beersmith predicted I would hit and I did based off my Eff inputs and other data.
Blazinlow86
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I personally wouldn't mess with anything. Consistency over efficiency everytime. Cheers
Gibberoni
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply MadKing.
As far as volumes, I am spot on with those in Beersmith. I am usually with 1/10 of a gallon of what my expected results are when brewing.
LHBS Crush. It was working fine for my batch sparging but it is not working well for fly sparging! My thought next is to actually batch sparge in 2 parts like I used to. Complete the vaurlauf and see if I gain efficiency there. Then it might be that the crush is too fine for the recirc system.
Running as slow as I can go. I usually run it wide open for 5-10 seconds, and slowly dial back until the flow stops, then creep the valve open until I see a trickle. Sparging usually takes me about an hour.
Yes, they are within 1*F of each other now. I use my thermapen smoke as a mash temp probe, since I can leave it in the middle of the mash. I do not like the exit probe temp when slowly sparging, does not get an accurate read. I instead use the snoke probe embedded into the heart of the mash.
I suspect that this is your problem right here - this is probably instantly compacting your grain bed, and then creating channels through which the wort is flowing for the rest of the mash.
Let the mash sit for 10 minutes with no flow after mashing in, and then slowly creep the flow up to a trickle and then just leave it there for the rest of the mash
Gibberoni
Well-Known Member
I will try this next and see how it goes, thanks as always.
Not sure if this helps at all but one of my concerns with using a 20 gallon kettle was the increase chance of channeling. If you are doing 5G batches I am wondering if that may be part of an issue too as well.
Sorry if I am butting in at all. Hope you get it worked out soon
Gibberoni
Well-Known Member
That was one of my concerns as well, but the lager was actually a 10 gallon batch! ~14 into the BK and ~12.5 into the fermenter with ~10 gallons into the kegs.
My milk stout that I brewed recently was only a 5gal, and was way more efficient. I simply dont have the process down yet on what I am missing.
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I have 20 gal Spike kettles, Riptide pumps, a 30 amp e-brew panel, and 2 Spike CF10 fermenters. Like you I struggled with mash and system efficiencies. I share your frustrations with learning a new and complex brewing system. I also use BeerSmith and learned that BeerSmith provides better results when the equipment profile matches your equipment and process. My efficiencies improved when I calibrated my sight gage, ensured my volumes matched BeerSmith, and accounted for boil off, cooling loss, and trub loss.
Yesterday I brewed a 12 gal BierMuncher Centennial Blonde. My pre-boil volume = 15.56 gal, 1.2 hour boil off = 1.5 gal, cooling shrinkage = 0.56 gal, trub loss = 1.5 gal, and 12 gal in the fermenter. My pre-boil SG and OG were both 1 point low, which is typical for me. My system has 3.5 gal of loss from pre-boil to the fermenter. I use the Electric Brewery hop stopper and tilt the brew kettle but still get 1.5 gal trub loss accounting for stuff left in the kettle, hoses, pump and heat exchanger. My sight gage typically reads 0.75 gallons lower than the actual kettle volume.
My suggestion is check the BeerSmith “Vols” tab and ensure volumes match your experience with using the system. Adjust your equipment profile to account for actual experience. Check pre-boil and post-boil SG to confirm with BeerSmith calculations. Adjust boil time to achieve BeerSmith OG or volume as needed. I hope this helps.
Cheers
CottonBrew
I am doing an experiment, I have the same two recipes for the same type of beer ready for a test. I have had two brewdays where numbers were reached to I have a good baseline
1st test - I am doing a .030 grain crush tomorrow rather than what I have been doing.
2nd test - Is simple, I am just going to add some grain and keep the crush I have been doing.
I'll keep you posted on what happens when both are done.
EDIT: Corrected to .030"
1st test - I am doing a .030 grain crush tomorrow rather than what I have been doing.
2nd test - Is simple, I am just going to add some grain and keep the crush I have been doing.
I'll keep you posted on what happens when both are done.
EDIT: Corrected to .030"
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Blazinlow86
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I'm interested to see what you find. When I've attempted the same thing on my system there was no significant difference in efficiency. Milling tighter just made increasing the mash temp very slow.
OK, here are the results of my 1st test. This was better than I had been getting BTW
Recipe was a More Beer kit and is was pre-milled but was course
I ran it through my Monster Mill set @ .030" and it was pretty fine.
In my past brews using these kits i had been high 70's to 80 on mash eff and a low 70 to high 68 for brewhouse eff.
So Today I did as follows
I had 9.5 lbs of grain and used a 1.33 water to grist ratio for the mash.
I ran the pre-milled grains (guessing they were 40 to 45 thou) through my mil set to .003"
Had just over 3 gallons of water in the mash tun and then doughed in.
I let the grain sit for 10 min, measured PH @ 5.22 then started recirc at wide open on pump and valves for 75 min. @ 148*
I did my mash out going for @ 168* as normal but could only get the mash to 167* but mashed for 10 min anyways.
I then did a very slow sparge using the same hose as done for recirc laying on top of the grain bed for a total of 40 min for this 5 gallon batch.
My pre-boil volume was about 8.6 gallons @ 1.036 for a mash eff of 89.9% (Beersmith predicted 1.034)
I did a 60 min boil with 5.5 gallons into the carboy with a reading of 1.046 for a brewhouse eff of 73.5%
Needless to say I am very happy with these results for now. These numbers were in line with what I had been getting but just with better eff with the finer mill.
Now I will try test 2 to see how things compare
Cheers!
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Blazinlow86
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Sound similar to the results I had. I'm surprised you could run your pumps so high with that tight a setting without getting a compacted grain bed. Cheers
I think I did but got lucky. when I started the sparge I could see small clumps of grain break loose and come to the surface of the mash tun. This gave me a big concern and thought that this brew was going to be a bust. But I slowed the water down and the bed settled down too and all came out OK.
I am still going to try my fast method with just adding some garin and see how that works.
Blazinlow86
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Easy way to tell is if your mash tun has a sight glass and the level drops when you start pumping your going to fast. Cheers
Not what I was talking about. I was referring to doing a fast sparge on the next batch but using more grain.
Don't want to hi-jack this thread but I'm looking for input from anyone running pumps in the Spike suggested configuration...
I have 2 March 815 pumps. No real problems but occasionally get air bubbles in the hoses below/before the pumps on the inlet side. Pumps are oriented per March's instructions with the inlet at the bottom and out at the top. Been looking at pics of the Spike systems and noticed that they do the opposite with a bleeder valve on the output (bottom) side of the pump. This makes sense to me... Anyone try this? Comments and/or suggestions?
Considering giving this a try.
Thanks!
I have 2 March 815 pumps. No real problems but occasionally get air bubbles in the hoses below/before the pumps on the inlet side. Pumps are oriented per March's instructions with the inlet at the bottom and out at the top. Been looking at pics of the Spike systems and noticed that they do the opposite with a bleeder valve on the output (bottom) side of the pump. This makes sense to me... Anyone try this? Comments and/or suggestions?
Considering giving this a try.
Thanks!
I setup my set of Blichmann pumps just like the Spike setup. I sometime have to make sure the inlet is minus air bubbles but other than that all is good.
Thanks for the reply!!! I think I'll give that a try.
Out of curiosity... When you say .003" are you talking gap on the mill? Do you really mean .030"? .003" seems crazy tight to me.
Out of curiosity... When you say .003" are you talking gap on the mill? Do you really mean .030"? .003" seems crazy tight to me.
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