Spelt and Buckwheat

[Zul'jin]

How y'all is

So if a recipe calls for flaked spelt, can I use the flaked spelt sold as breakfast cereal?

If not, and I can't find spelt or buckwheat (I need buckwheat too) what can I use instead?

I'm making Buckwheat Honey Black Beer from Randy Mosher's Radical Brewing.

And oh yeah, I've gone AG.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

There's a flaked spelt cereal? What's it called?

I would presume it's essentially the same thing as the flaked spelt you could buy at a homebrew shop but I would check for preservatives or sugar additions. The sugar probably won't be an issue but those preservatives, especially in large quantities can mess with fermentation. I'm not sure if the boil would break them down or not. I know people have used other breakfast cereal, tortilla chips, grits and other processed grain-based foods without problems. But I would still check the label before tossing it in.

 

[Zul'jin]

I haven't noticed it at Kroger. The internet gives results as breakfast cereal. Arrowhead Mills and Nature's Path come up often. I know they have Nature's Path cereals here. They make the Flax and Hemp cereal. It's good.

 

[Zul'jin]

Stumped the band with this one

I'll make some more calls this week. Prefer to buy local.

The internet says to sub with wheat. Ya don't say.

 

[kingwood-kid]

I got spelt berries out of the bulk bins at Whole Foods. If you're using these grains in smallish quantities, you could go with flour (Bob's Red Mill is the only brand I know of) and rice hulls.

 

[smokinghole]

I got mine at a hippie health food store. It was $4 a pound though so it was WAY more spendy than it should have been. Vitaspelt has the best online prices that I could find. Local can be very hard to find depending on your location. For me there was only one store.

 

[Zul'jin]

Whole Foods has buckwheat. The guy says they sell it as a bulk dry good and call it buckwheat groats. I didn't get the price.

Wikipedia says, "Groats are the hulled grains of various cereals, such as oats, wheat, barley or buckwheat (which is actually a pseudocereal)." That sounds like me.

 

[Zul'jin]

Found it! :rockin:

Whole Foods had Buckwheat and Spelt in the bulk grains section.

Buckwheat $2.39 pound, hulled
Spelt $1.99 pound

Neither s cracked.

They had Cardamom too. $43 a pound! They sold me about an ounce of ground for $4. They had whole Cardamom too. The recipe doesn't say whole or ground. I'm not sure how an ounce of whole vs an ounce of ground works out. Anyone? This stuff smells potent. I put a little on my tongue. It tastes like it smells and equally as potent. It smells like Vicks Vapo Rub meets patchouli.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom
Looks like maybe I should go light on it ground.

And if a recipe says to toast the Buckwheat, do I toast then crack or crack then toast? Does it matter? I've seen other toasted grains sold un cracked.

 

[Zul'jin]

I found the Buckwheat and the Spelt.

Hi. Do yall have Spelt?
What's that?
Spelt. It's a grain.
How's that spelt?
Yes.


Whole Foods. Bulk grain/cereal section.

Buckwheat $2.39 pound
Spelt $1.99 pound and the dude on the phone said they didn't have it. It was right there with the Buckwheat.

Neither is cracked.

Recipe says toast buckwheat. Do I crack and toast or toast and crack? Does it matter? I've seen other toasted grain sold un cracked.

I needed Cardamom too. Only $43 a pound at Whole Foods. Got the ounce I needed for $4, ground. Recipe doesn't say whole or ground. This stuff smells potent. Like Vicks Vapo Rub meets patchouli. This goes in a beer, huh? I'm thinking maybe 1 to 2 teaspoons ground where recipe calls for an once. Doesn't specify whole or ground. I tasted some. Kind of a cool flavor. A little minty but not like mint minty.

 

[smokinghole]

I wouldn't use a full ounce of cardamom. I'd use a gram to two grams in 5gals to start.

 

[usfmikeb]

Cardamom is powerful stuff, use it sparingly in its ground form.

 

[usfmikeb]

Just looked at OP, and see you're using it from Radical Brewing. That recipe calls for 0.1 ounces of cardamom, not 1 ounce.

 

[Bob]

Realize that, like maize grits, buckwheat and spelt groats will have to be boiled and gelatinized before adding to the mash tun. Just cracking it will do nothing.

Unless it's been malted, a grain must be gelatinized before mashing. You must liberate starches from the corn's protein matrix through boiling; only then can malt enzymes reduce the starches to sugars.

Reduce the corns by cracking to permit the boiling water better access, then boil for a half-hour or so. Add the glop to the mash. Unless you're using these grains in excess of 40% of the grist, rice hulls will be unnecessary. Don't forget to take the boil liquor and temperature addition into account with your mash calculations.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Zul'jin]

Right you are. See, I shoulda been looking at the recipe while posting. 0.1 oz cardamom. 1 oz coriander. And it does say crushed cardamom. This is ground. Will definitely use sparingly. Like a pinch. I don't have a 0.1 oz scale.

No, Bob. Know that I did not. I mean, I know about the malting. The recipe is specific about the six row, biscuit and chocolate being malted but does not say for the buckwheat or spelt. A learning I will go...

And I even got buckwheat honey. Cost a dollar and change more than local honey, but hey, they had the specific honey so I got the specific honey.

 

[Bob]

Good on yer. I've never seen those grains malted, though I have seen them flaked. The process which makes flaked grains gelatinizes them, so they can be added directly to the mash. If they're not flaked or malted, they'll need to be boiled.

Bob

 

[Zuljin]

After some reading of HBT, this is what I'm gonna do. Posted by carnevoodoo in the thread, Cereal Mash Explained. Cereal mash is what I need to do with the buckwheat and spelt.

From BYO:

"In a cereal mash you begin by heating a mash of your adjunct and small amount of your 6-row malt to 158–160 °F (70–71 °C) and holding there for about 5 minutes. Then you heat the mixture to a boil, boil for 30 minutes, and return the cereal mash to the main mash. The bulk of your barley malt can be mashed in at 122 °F (50 °C), then heated to 140 °F
(60 °C). When the boiled cereal mash is added to the main mash, the temperature moves into the saccharification range. Cereal mashing requires a nearly constant stirring of the mash. Using flaked maize is much simpler."

The recipe calls for flaked spelt which I could not get. Cracked whole grain will have to do. I didn't want to sub with something else instead of spelt.

The spelt and buckwheat come to 33% of the grain. 42% is malted grain of which 17% is malted six row. The recipe lists the remaining 25% of the grain bill as the 3 pounds of buckwheat honey. 67% of most definitely fermentable ingredients to 33% not as fermentable should work out.

Thanks, yall.

 

[Bob]

Wait - how much is actual pale malt? I don't have that book. If you post the grist, you can reassure me that something's not wonky here.

Bob

 

[Zuljin]

2 pound six row
2 pound biscuit
1 pound chocolate . I went with Briess
0.5 pound rice hulls
3 pound spelt . Calls for flaked but all I could get is whole
1 pound buckwheat
3 pound buckwheat honey

 

[usfmikeb]

I think that Bob's concerned about diastatic power here, and rightfully so. I'm guessing that Mosher used Six Row because of the amount of adjunct that's in here. Essentially, that 2 lbs is going to have to convert the biscuit, spelt, and buckwheat, which seems like a lot to me.

 

[Bob]

That does seem a lot of unmalted cereal to convert with just two pounds of 6-row, though it's possible, and one assumes Mosher or at least someone brewed the recipe success fully or it wouldn't have gone in the book.

On a homebrew scale I don't advise proportions below 50% unmalted cereals, or a 1:1 ratio. Here you've got 2 lbs of malt to convert 6 lbs of non-malt, which is a 1:3 ratio. That doesn't give me a hell of a lot of confidence it's going to work. I'd add at least two pounds of 6-row to that grist.

Which makes me wonder if Mosher isn't relying on that for a specific characteristic. Is he going for a turbid, thick, highly (relative to "normal" beer) unfermentable wort? Without the book's context I don't know, and I don't like to second-guess famous beer writers, for it inevitably precipitates a flame war.

Bob

 

[kingwood-kid]

The spelt and buckwheat come to 33% of the grain. 42% is malted grain of which 17% is malted six row. The recipe lists the remaining 25% of the grain bill as the 3 pounds of buckwheat honey. 67% of most definitely fermentable ingredients to 33% not as fermentable should work out.

Just to clarify, the spelt and buckwheat are fermentable, much more so than the chocolate and biscuit malt. Their starches aren't available for conversion until you cereal mash them, and they're dependent on the 6-row's enzymes for that conversion.

The diastatic power of 6-row is 180; all your other ingredients are zero. This would put your total DP at 45, except for the 6-row you boil. So 40ish. This is pretty much at the cutoff for successful conversion. I would mash a little low and a little long, and/or add another pound of 6-row (or malted wheat, or a 1/2 cup or so of DME right in the mash).

 

[usfmikeb]

Why would you add DME to the mash? I would not expect DME to aid the mash process.

 

[usfmikeb]

Bob - I agree, this might be on purpose. I couldn't imagine that he would include a recipe he hadn't tried.

 

[Zuljin]

This ship is sailing. Should I dump my cereal mash water in the tun or pour it off and discard? Tempted to use it. The rest of my mash water will be ready to go at the same time.

 

[usfmikeb]

I've never done that before but cannot think of a reason not to.

 

[Bob]

Add it. Just make sure to adjust your total liquor usage.

Bob

 

[Zuljin]

1/2 hour into boil and the pot is showing me there won't be much oof the 6 qts of water left. Back to stirring.

 

[Zuljin]

1:30pm and my mash tun is 160F with all the grains, rice hulls and water.

The buckwheat and spelt porridge was 198F after 50 mins boil and 30 mins rest. It probably went down a few degrees as I spooned it out of the pot. My clear mash water was 180F.

I was going to do a full hour boil but the porridge was getting so thick. It began sticking to the bottom even with all the stirring. Didn't want to risk another 10 mins and have scorched grain.

Added grains and rice hulls to the tun first. Hand tossed (as Revvy put it) the hulls with the dry grains and spooned the porridge on top. The tun will sit for an hour now.

Time for some pork steak.

 

[Zuljin]

So that went 90 mins since the tape on the safety timer came loose. I mean, uh, never tape the burner safety timer down to avoid pushing it every 15 minutes.

Tun was 150F. 166F now.

So I was reading that six-row is the power house of fermentables in this kind of thing I am doing. Why is the chocolate and biscuit less? All three (six, choc and biscuit) are malted. I haven't read yet to the part that explains how malted grains are less fermentable than un-malted. In this case, chocolate and biscuit less than buckwheat and spelt.

 

[DannPM]

Psyched that WF has spelt and possibly other esoteric grains, going to the one down my street to check out what they have. Not super psyched to do a true cereal mash though.

 

[Zuljin]

Not super psyched to do a true cereal mash though.

Meh. Just another hour of pot stirring, if I did it right.

It's on to wort boiling now. Got ~4 3/4 worth out of the tun. Hops and honey are in. Spices at the end.

 

[usfmikeb]

The process that makes two row into the different kinds of malts destroys the diastatic enzymes.

 

[usfmikeb]

Meh. Just another hour of pot stirring, if I did it right.

It's on to wort boiling now. Got ~4 3/4 worth out of the tun. Hops and honey are in. Spices at the end.

What was your pre boil gravity? Were you where you expected to be?

 

[Zuljin]

Didn't take one Will take post boil. Or post boil over. This wort is super boil over sensitive. I have the burner turned down to just a hair above where the flame goes out.

This is maybe the 8th brew on a propane burner. 4th AG for me. Me and my buds love it. Used to use an electric stove. I learned fast not to crank the burner on high for the wort. But this wort, just the sight of flame and its over the top. Maybe it's due to adding hops at the start. I'm not a big hops guy and have made many brews without any. What I've seen is once the hops go in, the boil over chance goes up.

 

[Zuljin]

My wort starting gravity 1.048

Recipe says starting gravity should be 1.068 to finish at ABV 6.5 - 7.5%

It'll make beer.

Thanks, usfmikeb, Bob and all of HBT for brewing with me.

Check back in 4 to 6 moths for the end result. Yeah. That's a long time. It's what the book says.

My in the mean time brew will either be an oatmeal stout or a cream ale.

 

[usfmikeb]

You making this recipe has inspired me, and this will go on my list to be brewed this year. I'm about to go into a lager cycle, so it might be a few months before I make it.

 

[kingwood-kid]

Why would you add DME to the mash? I would not expect DME to aid the mash process.

Depending on which DME you use, it has between 20 and 200 Lintner. Most of what you get for brewing has 20 or 60; the 200 is more for baking. The 20 probably wouldn't help much. So you're right, DME wouldn't aid the mash. Amylase powder would, although I believe what's available at the LHBS is alpha-amylase only.

 

[MarkT]

Hey, I've got this book and never noticed that recipe toward the back! Reading it now, it strikes me as something heading in the same direction as the New Belgium 1554 clone that I've been tinkering with, but likely to have a silky body to back up those roasted grains. You've inspired me to try this too - Thanks!

Regarding low OG with adjunct brews, I've been experimenting with cereal mashing using Randy's American Adjunct Mash Procedure in chapter 11, and it's helped to get me back in the 75ish percent efficiency range for the raw grain I'm playing with. I'd likely try that procedure first if that's not what you did. Also, I don't "crush" the raw grain anymore, I pulse it in the Vitamix to bust it up into something closer to flour to ensure accessibility. I don't know if it really helps or not, but I was only getting roughly 50% with my adjunct with a standard step infusion mash and without grinding it more finely.

But as you say, it still makes beer, and actually it's nice to have some beer around that I don't feel guilty about cracking open a little earlier in the day...

 

[Zuljin]

Went to secondary today since I'm brewing Saturday. Gravity is 1.011 (corrected for room temp) , 4.86% abv. I figure it'll end around 5.something%. Maybe 6.

The wort right now tastes the best of any wort I've drank, and I always drink the sample. The coriander and cardamom are certainly there. tsp tsp tsp... honey, and I may be nuts, but a hint of RC cola.

 

[Zuljin]

Bottled at 4.6% abv

How I lost 0.2%, I dunno. Probably my readings. That and my hydrometer is made to read at 60 something degrees F (64 maybe?) not 59, but I'm using a calculator that figures at 59. Oh well, it's too small a difference for me to worry over. I could always do the math myself... haha

That RC cola taste is from the cardamom. I read up on it and cardamom does that.

I doubt I let this sit the whole 6 months. Come 2 weeks and one of these is getting drank.