Sparging @ 180F?

[MT2sum]

Most of the recipes I see here and everywhere else on the net, tell you to sparge at between 165F to 170F (very rarely, there's one for 175F). I have recently purchased an old 4.5 gal coffee urn that stops and holds at 180F for at least 2 hours. Not being a brewing GURU, (I only brew for me, no friends close enuff to brew/share with), I'd like to know if there is any problem with sparging at 180F? Is there any really good reason why I shouldn't sparge at the higher teperature? Will it bring out flavors, fusels, etc., that I might not want in my beer?

I've done appliance repair professionally, so other than the extra expense and locating a correct-sized operating stat as well as using the current 180F stat as a high-limit stat, I could possibly lower the temp to 170F or 175F if necessary. Just looking for some guidance and opinions here, NOT trying to encourage arguments, flames, etc.
TIA
MT2sum

 

[bleme]

http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/10/2...ains-oversparging-and-hot-sparging-your-beer/

Sparging over 170F can cause tannin extraction.
For what it's worth, I started sparging with room temp water and don't see any reduction in efficiency.

 

[RM-MN]

Sparging over 170F can cause tannin extraction.

This is normally only a problem when fly sparging and continuing until the gravity drops too low which then allows the pH to creep up. Tannin extraction is controlled by the pH first, then temperature. As long as you keep your mash pH in the right range you can use any temperature water you want. I want to use the water right out of the tap as it does approximately the same quality of job and I don't need another vessel just for heating water. The mash is hot and wet and it warms tap water quite a bit when sparging.

 

[Homergah]

Quoted sparge temperatures often come from a misunderstanding by beginning/novice brewers. When you see something that says don't go over "x" temperature, what they should be telling you is to not let the grain bed get over that temp. The temp of the water is not the issue for tannin extraction. Your 180 f water is going to cool down before it gets to the tun, and when it hits the thermal mass of the mash. The only way 180 is going to be a problem is if you sparge until there is no longer a ph buffer remaining in the grains. At which time tannins may become a problem. The number you'll see quoted often is 1.010, the point at which ph begins to get in the DANGER ZONE. (Pronounced like Kenny logins would say it) Do your water volume calcs right and that won't be an issue.

 

[z-bob]

Most of the recipes I see here and everywhere else on the net, tell you to sparge at between 165F to 170F (very rarely, there's one for 175F). I have recently purchased an old 4.5 gal coffee urn that stops and holds at 180F for at least 2 hours. Not being a brewing GURU, (I only brew for me, no friends close enuff to brew/share with), I'd like to know if there is any problem with sparging at 180F? Is there any really good reason why I shouldn't sparge at the higher teperature? Will it bring out flavors, fusels, etc., that I might not want in my beer?

I've done appliance repair professionally, so other than the extra expense and locating a correct-sized operating stat as well as using the current 180F stat as a high-limit stat, I could possibly lower the temp to 170F or 175F if necessary. Just looking for some guidance and opinions here, NOT trying to encourage arguments, flames, etc.
TIA
MT2sum

Why not unplug it and add a little cold water when it reaches 180 to drop the temperature to 160 or so? Or if you have an Inkbird controller, you could use that to turn it off/on at whatever temperature less than 180 you want.

 

[MT2sum]

Thanks for all the responses to my question - I had thoughts that by using the 180F water, I might use a little less power for raising the temperature of the wort to boiling temperature. I think it's cheaper to heat my percolator to temp (because it recirculates the heating water - like a GF or Robobrew) than a pot of standing water. I could be wrong, but my coffee urn heats the 4.5 gallons of water in about 1/2 the time that it takes to heat 3.5 gallons of strike water on the stove or with my induction cooker/hotplate. Some of that might be because I like to cold-steep my dark grains overnight at room temps, but since the tap water is colder than room temp, I doubt that would affect things negatively.

I was hoping I would be told that there was no great issue with using the 180F water for sparging, so thanks for those comments. I do a BIAB mash and then sparge right in the bag after the bag has drained off all the mash liquids - so there's no need to use a separate pot (less to clean up afterwards), although I have been looking into doing a couple of dunks in sparge water in a separate pot to see if I can rinse more sugars out of the grains - just an idea ATM. By sparging thru the bag, I know I have the necessary amount of wort in the boil kettle prior to the boil, rather than worrying about top-up water, cooling with ice water, etc. Just my way of doing things, no offense to others and how they brew!

I like the way my beers turn out, and I have shared my brews with others in the past who seemed to like them. I move around a bit, just moved here about 5 months ago, so I don't know anyone here who brews or drinks homebrew, although since there's a couple of LHBS's within 50 miles, but I'm sure there are some homebrewers around.

Once again, thanks for the comments - from the looks of things, as long as I keep the pH in check, I think I'll be safe.
MT2sum

 

[z-bob]

I use hot tapwater to dunk-sparge my BIAB bag, and my water heater is set really high, so it's about 125 degrees. It works just fine. For low gravity beers, I'm not sure it's any more efficient than just doing full-volume mash with no sparge. (it does help with high-gravity brews, but I'm doing those less and less often) I sparge in a white 5 gallon bucket while my first-runnings are heating up to a boil. Then I pour the second-runnings in and let it all keep heating. Skim the foam when it boils, add the first charge of hops; you know how it goes from that point.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

As was mentioned before, sparge water of 180 does not mean you are sparging at 180. The thermal mass of the mash will reduce that well below 170, most likely (the variable being how much sparge water you use).
By way of example, I generally use 190*F sparge water, which usually brings my mash temp to 170 for mashout/sparge (usually around 12-14 quarts of sparge water for 12-14 lb grain).
So 180* water will absolutely not put your actual sparge temp over 170.

 

[Dgallo]

As stated above, it’s not the kettle temp of your sparge that recipes or Brewing practices are talking about when they give you a temp, it’s the temp of sparge water when In contact with your grain bed. 180•f water will be closer to 163•-165• for a 5gal batch with approximately 15 lbs of grain for batch sparging. The less grains you use, the less you’ll see a drop In temp from kettle to grains. Larger grain beds with increase the temperature drop

 

[kh54s10]

Another idea would be to turn off the urn a while before you sparge. Let the temperature drop a little....

 

[Dland]

I regularly heat sparge water to 185F before I start fly sparge. Over the 45 minutes or so the sparge takes(typically 9-9.5 gallons), the water drops in temp some.

As long as mash temp itself does not get above 170F, you should not have any problems with tannens. My finished mash temp usually ends up around 165. I used to use cooler sparge water, but my efficiency went up when I raised the temp.

In experimentation, I have even run it up to 195F, and finished mash temp hit 175. I did not detect extra tannens, but have settled on 185, just to be sure.

I always turn off HLT when spargeing, so as not to worry about my heat element.

 

[kh54s10]

I have sparged anywhere from 175 degrees to 145 degrees without any change in efficiency....

 

[z-bob]

@MT2sum: It sounds like your 180° urn will be perfect for fly-sparging if you unplug it as you start the sparge. The water temperature will drop as the grain temperature rises, and it will drop faster near the end of the sparge (less thermal mass in the urn) which is what you want.

 

[Dgallo]

I love this site but sometimes we all know how to kick a dead horse. We all gave the same message in different words for the past 6 messgages lol.im guilty of it but too. I guess our over all consensus is yes, your coffee urn will work! Lol

 

[kh54s10]

I love this site but sometimes we all know how to kick a dead horse. We all gave the same message in different words for the past 6 messgages lol.im guilty of it but too. I guess our over all consensus is yes, your coffee urn will work! Lol

I like the ones where 99% say in different words the same thing, but there is 1% who say the other 99% are nuts.....

 

[kevin58]

http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/10/2...ains-oversparging-and-hot-sparging-your-beer/

Sparging over 170F can cause tannin extraction.
...

No. It's PH not temperature.

 

[Dgallo]

No. It's PH not temperature.

True! But he could also be correct. You can be off a little on ph and and if your below 170 you won’t extract tannins. If you go over you would. But you’re right, if you hit your ph, you shouldn’t extract tannins at any point.

 

[bleme]

No. It's PH not temperature.

I don't have the equipment to measure pH. Everyone can measure temperature.
Plus, I am the ONLY one who cited a source.

 

[kh54s10]

I don't have the equipment to measure pH. Everyone can measure temperature.
Plus, I am the ONLY one who cited a source.

Sorry, couldn't resist!

 

[Dgallo]

I don't have the equipment to measure pH. Everyone can measure temperature.
Plus, I am the ONLY one who cited a source.

And I’m the only one who posted while eating a grilled cheese....

 

[Homergah]

I helped my mother with a garage sale (tag sale) last year. She sold a large coffee urn. As it was leaving with its new happy owner I realized I should have bought it from her for the 3 dollars she got for it. Along with the big vacuum sealer she sold for 5 bucks. Ooh well. Carry own....

 

[Homergah]

And I’m the only one who posted while eating a grilled cheese....

I posted while eating a corn dog with mustard at Sonic. With a route 44 lime aid.

 

[doug293cz]

http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/10/2...ains-oversparging-and-hot-sparging-your-beer/

Sparging over 170F can cause tannin extraction.
For what it's worth, I started sparging with room temp water and don't see any reduction in efficiency.

I don't have the equipment to measure pH. Everyone can measure temperature.
Plus, I am the ONLY one who cited a source.

So, much misinformation in one place, and not just from @bleme , but he's the only one that posted a reference , and the reference is also full of misinformation. The posters in this thread who say it's pH, not temperature, are the ones who have it right.

Think about decoction mashing, where during the mash about 1/3 of the mash is removed to a separate vessel and BOILED at 212˚F. The boiled portion of the mash is then added back to the mash tun, in order to raise the temp of the mash (i.e. do a step mash.) Sometimes double or triple decoctions are done, in which case there are two or three boil steps. If temps alone over 168˚F, 170˚F, 185˚F, 183.677˚F, or whatever 'magic' temp you believe in, caused astringency, then any decocted beer would be pretty much undrinkable due to astringency. But, decoction does not cause astringency because the pH is lower than ~6. Keep your grain bed under pH ~5.8 during the sparge, and you don't have to worry about astringency, no matter what temp the grain bed reaches.

The easiest way to keep the grain bed pH from rising too high during sparging is to acidify the sparge water to a pH of 5.8 or lower. The reason pH usually rises during sparging is that untreated water usually has some level of alkalinity, and the pH is higher than 7. Some water sources have very high levels of alkalinity, and some very little. The more alkalinity the sparge water has, the more it will raise the pH of the grain bed during the sparge. Get rid of the alkalinity in the sparge water, and the pH will not rise to problematic levels during the sparge.

If you can't, or don't want to, acidify your sparge water, then yeah, keep the grain bed cooler than about 170˚F during the sparge to prevent astringency. And yes, you can sparge with cold water at no loss of efficiency (although with fly sparging you may have to slow your flow even more to make up for slower diffusion at lower temps), it will just take you longer to heat to a boil.

Brew on

 

[Homergah]

So, much misinformation in one place, and not just from @bleme , but he's the only one that posted a reference , and the reference is also full of misinformation. The posters in this thread who say it's pH, not temperature, are the ones who have it right.

Think about decoction mashing, where during the mash about 1/3 of the mash is removed to a separate vessel and BOILED at 212˚F. The boiled portion of the mash is then added back to the mash tun, in order to raise the temp of the mash (i.e. do a step mash.) Sometimes double or triple decoctions are done, in which case there are two or three boil steps. If temps alone over 168˚F, 170˚F, 185˚F, 183.677˚F, or whatever 'magic' temp you believe in, caused astringency, then any decocted beer would be pretty much undrinkable due to astringency. But, decoction does not cause astringency because the pH is lower than ~6. Keep your grain bed under pH ~5.8 during the sparge, and you don't have to worry about astringency, no matter what temp the grain bed reaches.

The easiest way to keep the grain bed pH from rising too high during sparging is to acidify the sparge water to a pH of 5.8 or lower. The reason pH usually rises during sparging is that untreated water usually has some level of alkalinity, and the pH is higher than 7. Some water sources have very high levels of alkalinity, and some very little. The more alkalinity the sparge water has, the more it will raise the pH of the grain bed during the sparge. Get rid of the alkalinity in the sparge water, and the pH will not rise to problematic levels during the sparge.

If you can't, or don't want to, acidify your sparge water, then yeah, keep the grain bed cooler than about 170˚F during the sparge to prevent astringency. And yes, you can sparge with cold water at no loss of efficiency (although with fly sparging you may have to slow your flow even more to make up for slower diffusion at lower temps), it will just take you longer to heat to a boil.

Brew on

Exactly. As long as the grain bed has the constituents required to buffer ph, tannin extraction is a non issue. I've had two mt's going at the same time, boiling water in hlt for mash out in one while the other is ready for sparge. I'm not going to wait for that water to cool down. I sparge 210f without ill effects to wort/beer. That is, when convenient. I'm also not going to waste energy to heat up sparge water beyond what I feel necessary.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

No. It's PH not temperature.

Actually it's both, as the higher temperature decreases the pH.
Take the same wort at 70*F and at 170*F, and the pH will be lower at 170*F.
So it IS pH, but temp drives pH to a degree.

 

[MT2sum]

WOW!! It looks like I almost started a couple of flame wars ...... sorry about that, as I said at first, I didn't want to start any flame wars, arguments, etc.. From what I've seen on different forums is that everybody has his own way of brewing, everybody has his own take on efficiency, etc.. I know I probably brew different than most, I'm sure there are those who would look down on the way I brew and say I was an idiot for brewing the way I do, but I brew the way I like to and am not concerned if someone doesn't like my style of brewing. I've been brewing wine for over 50 years, and beer about 25-30 years too - it's what works best for me! And in my current situation (tiny cabin 16 feet square, 2 stories, with a wife and a dog) it works best!! I am only brewing 3, 3.5 gallon brews ATM, but once I get into a real house again, I'll go back to 5 gallon brews.

I appreciate all of the advice and opinions that were expressed here, I've got a PH meter that I bought from China which didn't work when I opened the box - yes, they refunded my money, and I've still got the PH meter - I'm going to order some batteries to see if that's the problem, but other than that I've read that pH strips are pretty much worthless for brewing, although, before these electronic gizmo's came out, I think a lot of the brewers 'back-in-the-day' used those pH strips, so they must have been of some use - maybe not right on the money, but close?

@ z-bob thanks for the info about dunking - I first read about it in a book about 1 gal brews and had mis-givings concerning larger brews like 5 or 6 gal. I think I'll try it next time I do a brew ..... but dunk a couple of times and then use that same water to sparge as normal.

Thanks,
MT2sum

 

[doug293cz]

... but dunk a couple of times and then use that same water to sparge as normal.

Thanks,
MT2sum

Would you rinse the soapy water off of dishes by raising the dishes out of the soapy water and then pouring the same soapy water over them? That is basically what you are proposing. You can't extract more sugar from the grain bed unless you rinse with water that has a lower concentration of sugar than the wort retained in the grain bed. Just dunk the grain bag in the sparge water and stir aggressively for about 5 minutes to assure that all of the wort has the same sugar concentration. Then simply drain (and squeeze if desired.) Pouring the resulting sparged wort over the grain will not extract any more sugar (i.e. increase your efficiency.)

Brew on

 

[Cavpilot2000]

WOW!! It looks like I almost started a couple of flame wars ...... sorry about that, as I said at first, I didn't want to start any flame wars, arguments, etc.. From what I've seen on different forums is that everybody has his own way of brewing, everybody has his own take on efficiency, etc.. I know I probably brew different than most, I'm sure there are those who would look down on the way I brew and say I was an idiot for brewing the way I do, but I brew the way I like to and am not concerned if someone doesn't like my style of brewing.
Thanks,
MT2sum

I don't think there were potential flame wars at all.
Bottom line is that your question asked if using 180*F sparge water would extract tannins because it's above 170 (the recommended max sparge temp).

I think pretty much everybody is in agreement that it won't, because whether you view 170 as the max recommended sparge temp or not, 180* sparge water will not raise the temp of your actual mash above (or even to) 170*F.

So you are safe.

I don't think there is any disagreement about that.

 

[z-bob]

@ z-bob thanks for the info about dunking - I first read about it in a book about 1 gal brews and had mis-givings concerning larger brews like 5 or 6 gal. I think I'll try it next time I do a brew ..... but dunk a couple of times and then use that same water to sparge as normal.

I'm not sure you understood what I said (probably my fault) I do BIAB 4 gallon batches. I mash-in with 4 gallons of water. When the mash is finished, I pull the bag out and let it drain, then squeeze it, then move it to a bucket. (and turn on the fire under the kettle) I pour about 2 gallons of hot dechlorinated water in the bucket and stir gently. After about a 10 minute soak, stirring occasionally, I pull the bag out of the bucket, let it drain, and squeeze it again. Then pour the bucket into the kettle with the rest of the wort. That's my whole sparge.

BTW, there's nothing magic about 5 gallons.

 

[SanPancho]

on the subject of misinformation i will say cold water sparge can in fact lower your efficiency.

The circumstances? Grists high in wheat, oats or rye. The mash solidifies basically. Think oatmeal. No bueno. Oats are the worst, then rye then wheat.

 

[SanPancho]

I too second the dunk sparge for biab. Pouring water on top of mash to drain out doesnt seem to work as well. I drain to kettle and start heating, drop another gallon onto mash to loosen sugars, stir, wait 15min, then drain to kettle. Easy 80% efficiency.

 

[MT2sum]

I too second the dunk sparge for biab. Pouring water on top of mash to drain out doesnt seem to work as well. I drain to kettle and start heating, drop another gallon onto mash to loosen sugars, stir, wait 15min, then drain to kettle. Easy 80% efficiency.

That's been my experience, and why I was considering a dunk sparge. When I feed the spent grains to the chix, it seems like they are getting a lot of the sugars that i'd like to have in the wort! Thanks to you, z-bob and doug293cz, as well as other commenters, I'm going to try out the dunk sparge next time around (@ the 180F that the coffee urn puts out!).

As far as doug293cz's comment about dirty dishes I can agree somewhat, however, one thought I was having was that dunking would still leave a lot of those same sugars, so I was thinking that rinsing again with that same water would help - maybe instead, a double-dunk, with the second dunk having new water would be a good idea in that case, but then I'd have to boil for a couple of hours to get the right amount of end product.

I've been brewing 'MY WAY' for many years, so I'm kind of slow on trying out new ideas without getting opinions, weighing them in my mind, and then putting them into practice. I've been thinking about this dunking sparge for 3 or 4 years now, I just decided to bring it up during this thread. I guess I'm what they call a stick-in-the-mud when it comes to my brewing habits. Without the extra time/money to brew two batches side-by-side to be better able to measure the differences, I was having a problem trying to decide which would give me the best efficiency. Thanks to the comments here, I think dunking will be the best way for me to extract more sugars - at least for a batch or two for experimentation and for substantiation in my mind, (but allow some to escape to the chix), and still make a good beer (and I like the thought of 80% efficiency!).

I guess the chix are the winners in this kind of situation, (there's always going to be some sugars you just can't rinse out!) - the extra sugars are theirs!

 

[doug293cz]

To get the best efficiency from BIAB with a dunk sparge, you want to follow the following process:

1. Stir the grain well at end of mash to make sure the wort is homogeneous throughout
2. Raise the bag and let drain
3. Squeeze the bag like it owes you money
4. Place bag in vessel of water
5. Stir aggressively for about 5 minutes to homogenize the wort
6. Raise the bag and let drain
7. Squeeze the bag like it owes you money
8. Repeat steps 4 - 7 if you want a little extra efficiency

The following chart shows how different sparge approaches affect efficiency. All cases use the same total brewing water (strike + sparge) and have the same pre-boil volume. The solid lines represent what is typical for a traditional MLT (about 0.12 gal/lb grain absorption), and the broken lines represent what you can achieve with an aggressive squeeze (0.06 gal/lb absorption.) Adding a sparge step gives you 8 - 9 percentage points increase in lauter efficiency. Adding a second sparge can give you 2.5 - 3.5 percentage points better efficiency than a single sparge.

Brew on

 

[MT2sum]

3. Squeeze the bag like it owes you money
7. Squeeze the bag like it owes you money

Gave me a chuckle - Thanks for the post and the chart! Much appreciated!


@ San Pancho, z-bob, and doug 293cz - BTW, I don't know why most of my post above turned red, I even copied and pasted to Libre deleted it and re-did it, using black font - for some reason it still turned out red. I must have done something wrong .... Sorry all!

 

[Wolfbayte]

"@ San Pancho, z-bob, and doug 293cz - BTW, I don't know why most of my post above turned red, I even copied and pasted to Libre deleted it and re-did it, using black font - for some reason it still turned out red. I must have done something wrong .... Sorry all!"

They appear to be links to HBT profiles

 

[MT2sum]

They appear to be links to HBT profiles

Is that maybe because I hit the word 'quote' first? It mentions a multi-quote, but nothing shows up so then I remember to highlight and click on reply, which gives me the quote. I'll get it one of these days - thanks!