Southern Tier Pumking Clone??

[lpdean40]

I just had this over the weekend and had to take a stab at it. To me, this was as close to Pumkin pie in liquid form as it gets. I put this little recipe together and brewed it up last night. It's already chugging away in the fermenter. After double thinking it, I may have gone waaay too heavy on the spices but trial and error is part of the fun. Any critiques are greatly appreciated.

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 3.00 gal
Boil Size: 4.27 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Mashed @ 160 for 90min

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
1 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 9.52 %
7 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 71.43 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 7.14 %
12.0 oz Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 7.14 %
8.0 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4.76 %
29.00 oz Pumpkin (Canned) (Mash 90.0 min) Misc
1.50 oz Saaz [3.85 %] (60 min) Hops 29.0 IBU
0.50 tsp Allspice (Ground) (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.50 tsp Cinnamon (Ground) (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.50 tsp Ginger (Ground) (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.50 tsp Nutmeg (Ground) (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
4.00 oz Lactose (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
2.00 tsp Vanilla (Pure Extract) (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
2.00 tsp Vanilla (Pure Extract) (Bottling 0.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Irish Ale (White Labs #WLP004) Yeast-Ale

Est Original Gravity: 1.085 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.023
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 8.16 %
Bitterness: 29.0 IBU Calories: 414 cal/pint
Est Color: 15.1 SRM

 

[KingBrianI]

The vanilla you added to the boil with 5 minutes left is probably a waste. Since the vanilla aromas and flavors are so volatile, they were probably mostly boiled off. Otherwise looks like a good pumpkin ale!

 

[lpdean40]

Maybe I should put 4tsp in at bottling then, huh?

 

[KingBrianI]

Maybe I should put 4tsp in at bottling then, huh?

Hard to say. Best thing to do is to taste it after adding 2 tsp and see if you think it needs more.

 

[NJstout]

I think if anyone wants to really clone this beer, you've gotta use the artificial flavors.

does anyone know where they order there extract from?

 

[sfrisby]

Running the risk of this being mentioned already, but has anyone attempted a box of Graham crackers in the mash to mimick Revvy's box of ginger snaps in his ginger snap ale. Seems a unique way to chase ST's Graham cracker flavor.

 

[smokinghole]

Last year when I bottled my pumpkin ale I added 10ml of vanilla extract to the bottling bucket. It was a distant background compliment to the flavor. If you went to 15ml it'd probably be a little more noticeable but not overwhelming.

 

[O'Haggerty]

Running the risk of this being mentioned already, but has anyone attempted a box of Graham crackers in the mash to mimick Revvy's box of ginger snaps in his ginger snap ale. Seems a unique way to chase ST's Graham cracker flavor.

Yes I used two boxes of graham crackers in both my pumking"ish" brew and also in my gingerbread southern english brown... both brewed within the last month. I have read some good things about the flavor actually coming through. I also used sweet potatoes, squash, and raw cane sugar... so it might be a little more "rich" than pumking but I will definitely post back in 45 days or so and give you my recipe + results.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Something about the numbers on the bottle don't seem to add up. The ST website says the ABV is 8.6%. There is a picture of the label that says 9% ABV and 19* Plato. 19* Plato is ~1.079 and in order to get even 8.6% ABV from that you'd need to hit a FG of ~1.013 (~84% apparent attenuation). Pumpking doesn't taste that highly attenuated so I don't get it. Unless they actually do add lactose but don't include it in the OG.

I bought a couple of bottles of Pumpking and measured the SG. It was in the 1.018-1.020 range. The label says 19* Plato and 8.6% ABV. If you start at 19* Plato (1.079) then you must ferment it down to ~1.013 to hit 8.6% ABV. Going from 1.079 to 1.019 is only ~7.8% ABV. So there is something else going on.

Maybe they ferment it down to 1.013 and then add lactose to get the SG up to 1.018-1.020. Since a FG of 1.013 is ~84% apparent attenuation this seems unlikely unless they add a decent amount of brown sugar.

Or maybe they only ferment it down to 1.018-1.020 and then add an alcohol-based tincture of pumpkin pie spices to get the alcohol up to 8.6%. A FG of 1.019 equates to ~76% apparent attenuation which is at least in the 'typical' range. If my calcs are right, it would require about 12-13 oz of 80 proof tincture in 5 gallons of beer to get that extra 0.8% ABV.

Or maybe a combination of the two.

Just a guess but I think any graham cracker flavor is a result of the spices (and sweetness). Pumpkin pie doesn't have a graham cracker crust so it would seem strange for ST to use graham cracker flavoring.

 

[pacifisticuffs]

I bought a couple of bottles of Pumpking and measured the SG. It was in the 1.018-1.020 range. The label says 19* Plato and 8.6% ABV. If you start at 19* Plato (1.079) then you must ferment it down to ~1.013 to hit 8.6% ABV. Going from 1.079 to 1.019 is only ~7.8% ABV. So there is something else going on.

Wouldn't a fully-carbed beer throw off your hydrometer readings though? I suspect the carbonation would make your readings higher than they truly are (unless you left it out so it'd get flat).

I'm loving this thread, btw. It reads like a freakin' mystery novel.

 

[ThatGuyRyan]

Mine has been in secondary for a while and with the crystalized ginger that I used the Pumpking taste is there but no way near the level of the real Pumpking. I would have to agree that they are using some sort of extract.

 

[passedpawn]

Wouldn't a fully-carbed beer throw off your hydrometer readings though? I suspect the carbonation would make your readings higher than they truly are (unless you left it out so it'd get flat).

I'm loving this thread, btw. It reads like a freakin' mystery novel.

I'm guessing Castle knows to degas it first. Stirring or other agitation works, or sucking a vacuum on it with a foodsaver accessory tube works too.

 

[passedpawn]

Mine has been in secondary for a while and with the crystalized ginger that I used the Pumpking taste is there but no way near the level of the real Pumpking. I would have to agree that they are using some sort of extract.

which recipe did you pattern your's after? How much candied ginger did you use? Vanilla (bean)?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Wouldn't a fully-carbed beer throw off your hydrometer readings though? I suspect the carbonation would make your readings higher than they truly are (unless you left it out so it'd get flat).

I'm loving this thread, btw. It reads like a freakin' mystery novel.

I filled a 1/2 pint mason jar about 80% full, put the lid on loosely, threw a stirbar in there and put it on the stirplate first. Had to turn the stirplate off a couple times to prevent it foaming over. By the time it had reached room temp it was pretty flat. I even left it in the hydro tube overnight and looked again this morning.

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

I took the brewery tour at Southern Tier this weekend...amazing! Anyway, I found out from the guide that they run every beer through something called a "hopback". It gets run through here between the boil and primary fermentation. This is where the guide said most of the spices are added, though they are added in the boil as well. We as homebrewers don't have this type of equipment, obviously.
Anyway, I was thinking about adding lactose late in the boil or later in the process for that sweetness. I'm also going to try roasting the pumpkin skin on next time. That one flavor I can't nail is the key. I don't think it's Graham cracker extract, but as homebrewers, that might be the route we have to go to achieve that flavor...still though, there's has a warm flavor, even when served cold. Howdtheydothat?!

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Good info Moody. They call the spices used in pumpkin pie (cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, allspice, ginger) the 'warm' spices. So maybe that's the 'warming' you're talking about.

Yesterday I made two mixes just to see the difference that cloves and allspice made. They were:
4 parts Saigon Cinnamon
2 parts Ginger
1 part Nutmeg
1 part Allspice (mixture #1 only)
1 part Cloves (mixture #2 only)

Biggest thing I learned from it was the added perception of sweetness from the cloves. Allspice more peppery. House smelled wonderful.

 

[BudzAndSudz]

Have any of you tried this beer? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f76/imperial-pumpkin-pie-ale-200122/

I'm sure the flavor profile won't be exactly the same (especially since it doesn't have any pumpkin in it) but the simplicity is appealing, the grain bill looks delicious, and the spices will be (I would guess) slightly more distinct but balanced since there won't be quite so much going on as some of the recipes in this thread. I was thinking instead of using lactose that I might just mash at about 158-160 to get a little more residual sweetness towards the finish. Thoughts?

 

[MCKemp]

My wife and I are homebrewing for the first time this weekend and are coming out swinging starting with a Pumpking clone. We merged the parts of EuBrew and mrames recipes we liked into one. We're huge fans of pumpkin ales and have already gathered all the ingredients and read this entire thread twice pulling out the best ideas we could find. Any suggestions or comments on our recipes are greatly appreciated! All credit to mrames for the "procedures."

Southern Tier Pumking Ale Clone

Ingredients:
• 4 lbs American Crystal 10L Malt (Mash)
• 1.5 lbs Victory Malt (Mash)
• 4 lb pumpkin (roasted & cubed) (Mash)
• 2.5 lb Breiss Pilsen DME (60 min)
• .5 oz. U.S. Northern Brewer(8.6%), (60 min)
• 6 lb Breiss Pilsen DME (30 min-late addition)
• 2 tsp Irish Moss (15 min) (4 tsp if pumpkin melts)
• 1/2 tsp Cinnamon (10 min)
• 1/3 tsp Nutmeg (10 min)
• 1.5 tsp Ginger (ground) (10 min)
• 1/3 tsp Cloves (10 min)
• 1/4 tsp Allspice (10 min)
• 1 oz. Sterling(7%), 10 min
• WLP002 English Ale Yeast
• 1 tsp Vanilla Extract (priming)
• 1 tsp Graham Cracker Extract (priming)
• 11 oz Brown Sugar (priming)

Procedure:
1. Roast the peeled/cubed pumpkin, temper in the oven at 175°.
2. Add Grains & Pumpkin to 5.5 gallon of cold water, heat to 175° T1 00:00
3. Maintain 175° temp for 45 minutes T1 00:45
4. Rinse grain with quart 175° water, bring to boil, slowly add 2.5lbs DME & Hops T2 01:25
5. Boil for 30 minutes and slowly add 6lbs DME (Watch for flame-out) T2 01:55
6. Boil for 15 minutes more and add irish moss T2 02:10
7. Boil for 5 minutes more and add hops and spices T2 02:15
8. Continue until all DME dissolved T2 02:25
9. Finish boil for 10 minute T2 02:35
10. Cool wort from 212° to 70° as quickly as possible T3 02:40
11. Wort at 80° T3 ~03:10
12. Aerate and rack wort into primary fermenter
13. Take SG reading and record. Pitch yeast and seal

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

The only thong i'd say ingredients wise, is that Pumking uses magnum hops at 60 min, and then sterling hops later in the boil. 10 min or so. Since you're doing partial mash, make sure you're putting your pumpkin in a bag for steeping that is similar to the bag you're steeping your specialty grains in. Season that pumpkin with pumpkin pie spice before baking too.

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

Oh, and good luck on your first venture! Sanitize, organize, and keep good notes!

 

[raiderswolverines]

I think the key really is the graham cracker flavor. I had a tincture of vanilla, candied ginger and pie spices. Although it smelled great, just wasn't 100% Pumking. After the graham cracker flavor was added...the tincture is spot on in scent. My goal is something in between Punk and Pumking. Think I'll name it Pumking Punk kids!!

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

How do you prepare a tincture, exactly?

 

[TBKSquire]

this is one of the things you'll see year after year about making pumpkin beers. no matter how or when you do it, if you add pumpkin to wort, you lose a LOT of beer in the longrun and rarely get the flavor you're seeking. commercial breweries have much better filtering techniques and equipment so don't worry about it. just remember to use an extra helping of irish moss or gelatin and hope for the best. plan for longer than normal primary & secondary, and perhaps even a third storage for proper clearing. patience:cross: i mean rdwhahb

Made the same mistake as a lot of people and didn't filter out the pumpkin from my boil. Sanitize a strainer and get the big stuff out or you'll be dealing with some major loss. Let it sit in secondary for a month and you should be good. Patience is key haha Lost a gallon because I didn't strain... bah.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

How do you prepare a tincture, exactly?

AFAIK you just add the key ingredient to the alcohol and let it sit for a while. I've only made one; a smoked Habanero tincture for bottling a few from a traditional mead. I just put the smoked Habs in a mason jar with some vodka and let it sit a month. Not sure if you even need to let it sit if using dry/ground spices.

 

[MCKemp]

this is one of the things you'll see year after year about making pumpkin beers. no matter how or when you do it, if you add pumpkin to wort, you lose a LOT of beer in the longrun and rarely get the flavor you're seeking. commercial breweries have much better filtering techniques and equipment so don't worry about it. just remember to use an extra helping of irish moss or gelatin and hope for the best. plan for longer than normal primary & secondary, and perhaps even a third storage for proper clearing. patience:cross: i mean rdwhahb

A few posts back I put a recipe my wife and I were going to try. Well Sunday, we brewed it, and had to ad-lib along the way. Getting the pumpkin flavor from the pumpkin without creating a gooey mess was one of our biggest concerns.
We roasted 5 lbs of spiced pumpkin cubes for 30 minutes at 175 and put them in "turkey stuffing bags" and put them in the mash. At the end, they were still stiff so we decided to put them in the boil. Figuring the bags would make the boil take longer, we put them in separate pots and added water, then boiled them separately to extract the flavors. After 20 minutes of boiling, we put the juices into the boil. We tasted the pumpkin when it cooled down and there was no flavor left; I assume this means we were successful at getting the pumpkin taste from them.

Has anyone else tried such a thing? I assume it's similar to making tea from different fruits and veggies.

 

[tippetsnapper]

For me its always been the creamy aspect that gives the pumking a different flavor from other pumpkin beers, and I think its primarily the vanilla. I concocted this recipe, although not imperial, added a spice tea and 3/4 ounce of high grade vanilla extract. Its pretty darn close to that creamy flavor I was looking for.

English 2-row Pale malt 42.85714286
Vienna malt 25.71428571
Crystal 60 8.571428571
Toasted flaked oats 5.714285714
Fresh roasted long necked pumpkin 14.28571429

spice tea of 1/2 tsp cinnamon, 1/2 tsp allspice, 1/2 tsp clove, 3/4 tsp ginger added a couple days into the primary ferment

bourbon vanilla added at kegging

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

Yeah, it's that creamy flavor that no one can seem to nail down. It tastes like there is whipped cream on a slice of pumpkin pie when you drink the stuff. They make a whipped cream vodka. Maybe make a tincture using this vodka? How much vodka should be used when making a tincture?

 

[BudzAndSudz]

Has anyone considered looking at an english style cream ale such as Boddingtons and seeing what gives that such a creamy mouthfeel? There are multiple beers I can think of that seem creamier than beer should be and there has to be a secret to getting that flavor.

 

[foltster]

Has anyone considered looking at an english style cream ale such as Boddingtons and seeing what gives that such a creamy mouthfeel? There are multiple beers I can think of that seem creamier than beer should be and there has to be a secret to getting that flavor.

Boddingtons uses nitro.

http://www.thebrewsite.com/2008/02/22/canned-beer-week-why-beer-widgets.php

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

It's not the creamy mouthfeel though, it actually TASTES like whipped cream or something like that. It's beyond just mouthfeel. It's the white whale, and we are Captain Ahab!