Southern Tier Pumking Clone??

[Moody_Copperpot]

Oh and as for the tincture, that gets added when? The secondary?

 

[HYGBrewin]

For this years' pumpkin ale I decided to try to clone ST Pumking. I did a side-by-side last and it is very difficult to tell it from the genuine article. The intense aroma, unique graham cracker/raw pumpkin flavour, and spicing are all there. Recipe is based on label/ST website, various forums and my own speculation and tweaking when racking to secondary. I think the keys are the lactose and the ginger/vanilla. I really wasn't expecting that I would closely replicate the unique flavour profile of pumking, so I am both surprised and very pleased with the outcome.

Vol: 5.5 gal
Kettle Vol: 7 gal
OG: 1.090
IBU: appx. 34
SRM: appx. 11

Fermentables:
14 lbs. 2-Row Pale malt
1 lb. Victory
12 oz. Crystal 80°L
1 large Pumpkin (skinned, cubed and roasted with honey then added to mash)
1 lb. Demerara sugar (added after hot break)

Hops:
3/4 oz. Magnum @ 60 min.
1/4 oz. Saaz @ 15 min.

Additives:
8 oz. Lactose @ 15 min.
1/2 tsp. Yeast nutrient @ 10 min.
1 Whirlfloc tab @ 10 min.
2 tbsp. chopped Candied Ginger @ 5 min.
2 Cinnamon sticks @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Cloves @ 5 min.
1.2 tsp. grated Nutmeg @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Allspice @ 5 min.
1 Vanilla Bean (added to secondary)
1/2 tsp. ground Cinnamon (added to secondary)

Yeast:
2 packs Safale US-05

Mashed @ 152°F for 90 min.

Boiled for 60 min.

Fermented @ 66°F RT for 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary. Force carbonated in keg.

Notes: The lactose could possibly be increased from 8 oz. to 10 oz., but definitely no more than that. Excluding the allspice and nutmeg might nudge it even closer to an exact clone, but it is not critical. I think that they key elements are the victory malt, lactose, vanilla and ginger.

So my version of this is kegged, carbed, and officially delicious. I want to enter it into a local homebrew comp in Philly that's coming up - how would you all classify the base recipe for this beer? It's going to go in 21A - Spice, Herb, and Vegetable beer - therefore you have to state what the underlying beer style is. Would it be an Amber ale? Or do you think this is just best suited for the 23 Specialty Beer category?

 

[foltster]

It's not the creamy mouthfeel though, it actually TASTES like whipped cream or something like that. It's beyond just mouthfeel. It's the white whale, and we are Captain Ahab!

I finally had a chance to sample a fresh Pumpking this weekend.

HOLY DIACETYL! This beer has diacetyl in spades. You can smell and taste it distinctly. In a way it really works with this beer, adding that hint of baked in goodness to the graham cracker crust and pumpkin spice.

A good clone of this will have to have some diacetyl.

-Scott

 

[gwdlaw]

Probably very stupid question, but when using tincture of soaked vanilla beans, do you:

1) add only the vodka the beans were soaked in to the secondary carboy

OR

2) add the vodka and beans to the secondary carboy

Thanks in advance!!!

 

[foltster]

Probably very stupid question, but when using tincture of soaked vanilla beans, do you:

1) add only the vodka the beans were soaked in to the secondary carboy

OR

2) add the vodka and beans to the secondary carboy

Thanks in advance!!!

Normally you would just add the vodka. One of the advantages of doing a tincture is you can sample it in another beer to determine how strong it is and scale that up to the full batch size.

On the other hand, it shouldn't cause any issues to dump the whole thing in and you would probably get a stronger flavor.

 

[reddskinnfan]

So my version of this is kegged, carbed, and officially delicious. I want to enter it into a local homebrew comp in Philly that's coming up - how would you all classify the base recipe for this beer? It's going to go in 21A - Spice, Herb, and Vegetable beer - therefore you have to state what the underlying beer style is. Would it be an Amber ale? Or do you think this is just best suited for the 23 Specialty Beer category?

Same with mine. Want to enter it, and wish there was a local comp.

 

[stblindtiger]

For this years' pumpkin ale I decided to try to clone ST Pumking. I did a side-by-side last and it is very difficult to tell it from the genuine article. The intense aroma, unique graham cracker/raw pumpkin flavour, and spicing are all there. Recipe is based on label/ST website, various forums and my own speculation and tweaking when racking to secondary. I think the keys are the lactose and the ginger/vanilla. I really wasn't expecting that I would closely replicate the unique flavour profile of pumking, so I am both surprised and very pleased with the outcome.

Vol: 5.5 gal
Kettle Vol: 7 gal
OG: 1.090
IBU: appx. 34
SRM: appx. 11

Fermentables:
14 lbs. 2-Row Pale malt
1 lb. Victory
12 oz. Crystal 80°L
1 large Pumpkin (skinned, cubed and roasted with honey then added to mash)
1 lb. Demerara sugar (added after hot break)

Hops:
3/4 oz. Magnum @ 60 min.
1/4 oz. Saaz @ 15 min.

Additives:
8 oz. Lactose @ 15 min.
1/2 tsp. Yeast nutrient @ 10 min.
1 Whirlfloc tab @ 10 min.
2 tbsp. chopped Candied Ginger @ 5 min.
2 Cinnamon sticks @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Cloves @ 5 min.
1.2 tsp. grated Nutmeg @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Allspice @ 5 min.
1 Vanilla Bean (added to secondary)
1/2 tsp. ground Cinnamon (added to secondary)

Yeast:
2 packs Safale US-05

Mashed @ 152°F for 90 min.

Boiled for 60 min.

Fermented @ 66°F RT for 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary. Force carbonated in keg.

Notes: The lactose could possibly be increased from 8 oz. to 10 oz., but definitely no more than that. Excluding the allspice and nutmeg might nudge it even closer to an exact clone, but it is not critical. I think that they key elements are the victory malt, lactose, vanilla and ginger.

This will be my second Pumpkin beer this year. I made a belgian pumpkin earlier in the year that is kegged and I love it! I'll be making this one for Thanksgiving though. I have everything for it, and plan on brewing it on Sunday. I am going to use a green jarrahdale pumpkin to hopefully get a little more pumpkin flavor. I'll be adding it to the mash after I roast the hell out of it (I'm thinking at least an hour at 350 with the skin side up, and covering the inside with either honey or brown sugar), and then skinning and cutting it into 1 - 1.5" cubes before adding it to the mash.

What kinds of ranges did you guys shoot for with your water chemistry?

I'm currently planning on these levels:

Calcium 114 ppm
Mag 24 ppm
Sod 38 ppm
Clor 156 ppm
Sulfate 195 ppm

Chloride/Sulfate Ratio: .8

I'm hoping for more of a well rounded flavor with this water profile, but I'm new to water adjustment... any thoughts?

 

[suprchunk]

I finally had a chance to sample a fresh Pumpking this weekend.

HOLY DIACETYL! This beer has diacetyl in spades. You can smell and taste it distinctly. In a way it really works with this beer, adding that hint of baked in goodness to the graham cracker crust and pumpkin spice.

A good clone of this will have to have some diacetyl.

-Scott

You are the second person to mention diacetyl, and I just don't get it. At all.

 

[foltster]

You are the second person to mention diacetyl, and I just don't get it. At all.

Have you tasted it in other beers before? Some people can't taste that particular (intentional in this case) off-flavor.

see: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/can-i-not-taste-diacetyl-250304/

I have not had pumking on draft before, it is possible that it is not present on draft.

 

[ThomEHof]

I brewed this almost exactly per the recipe, and it is almost dead on! Perfect flavor and very creamy. Needs maybe one more week in the bottle. I'll post exact recipe soon.

For this years' pumpkin ale I decided to try to clone ST Pumking. I did a side-by-side last and it is very difficult to tell it from the genuine article. The intense aroma, unique graham cracker/raw pumpkin flavour, and spicing are all there. Recipe is based on label/ST website, various forums and my own speculation and tweaking when racking to secondary. I think the keys are the lactose and the ginger/vanilla. I really wasn't expecting that I would closely replicate the unique flavour profile of pumking, so I am both surprised and very pleased with the outcome.

Vol: 5.5 gal
Kettle Vol: 7 gal
OG: 1.090
IBU: appx. 34
SRM: appx. 11

Fermentables:
14 lbs. 2-Row Pale malt
1 lb. Victory
12 oz. Crystal 80°L
1 large Pumpkin (skinned, cubed and roasted with honey then added to mash)
1 lb. Demerara sugar (added after hot break)

Hops:
3/4 oz. Magnum @ 60 min.
1/4 oz. Saaz @ 15 min.

Additives:
8 oz. Lactose @ 15 min.
1/2 tsp. Yeast nutrient @ 10 min.
1 Whirlfloc tab @ 10 min.
2 tbsp. chopped Candied Ginger @ 5 min.
2 Cinnamon sticks @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Cloves @ 5 min.
1.2 tsp. grated Nutmeg @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Allspice @ 5 min.
1 Vanilla Bean (added to secondary)
1/2 tsp. ground Cinnamon (added to secondary)

Yeast:
2 packs Safale US-05

Mashed @ 152°F for 90 min.

Boiled for 60 min.

Fermented @ 66°F RT for 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary. Force carbonated in keg.

Notes: The lactose could possibly be increased from 8 oz. to 10 oz., but definitely no more than that. Excluding the allspice and nutmeg might nudge it even closer to an exact clone, but it is not critical. I think that they key elements are the victory malt, lactose, vanilla and ginger.

 

[gwdlaw]

Ok gang, I've been holding off on posting this until I transferred into secondary to see how it tasted. Thursday night, I put a sample of Pumking side by side with my beer for a taste test. My three taste testers couldn't tell the difference.

OG: 1.080
FG (when added to secondary): 1.018
Approx: 8.3 % abv

I have to credit "Cannondale" for the original recipe that I copied. Here are the ingredients:

Fermentables:
14 lbs 2-Row American Pale Malt
1 lb Victory
12 oz Crystal 80L
2 lbs pumpkin (small Cinderella pumpkin, skinned, cubed and baked for 45 minutes at 350 degrees, mashed (little water added) and coated with honey, then cooked another 45 minutes at 350 - then cooled to 154 degrees to be added to mash)

3/4 lb Demerara Sugar (added to boil after hot break)
1/4 lb Light Brown Sugar (added to boil after hot break)

Hops:
3/4 oz Magnum Hops @ 60 min
1/4 oz Sterling @ 15 min

Additives:
8 oz Lactose @ 15 min
1/2 tsp Yeast Nutrient @ 10 min
1 Whirlfloc Tab @ 10 min
2 tbsp fine chopped candied ginger @ 5 min
3 Ceylon cinnamon sticks (real cinnamon sticks ordered online)
1/2 tsp whole cloves @ 5 min
1/2 tsp nutmeg @ 5 min
1/2 tsp Allspice @ 5 min

Added to Secondary:
2 Madagascar Vanilla Beans (2 fresh beans split down middle, scraped and soaked in 4 oz vodka for 2 weeks - Vodka added to secondary)
1 tsp. Pumpkin Pie Spice
1 tsp. Capella water soluble Graham Cracker Extract (purchased online and added to secondary)

Yeast:
2 packs Safeale US-05

Mashed at 154 degrees for 90 minutes (no sparge using 10 gallon Home Depot water cooler)

Boiled for 60 minutes.

Fermented at 66 degrees for 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary.

Granted, the beer is still in secondary, and may taste a little different when it comes out, is conditioned and bottled, but if everything stays remotely the same . . . I'd call it an exact clone.

I've read the posts about replicating the "graham cracker" taste of Pumking. In my opinion, the secret is the Capella Graham Cracker Extract. Before it was added, the beer was very good, but missing something. After the addition, it was SPOT ON!!!

In fact, to make sure I have an adequate supply, I am planning on brewing a second batch to last through the holidays.

Thanks to Cannondale and all the other members of Homebrewtalk.com. This was my first attempt at home brewing and it turned out exceptional!! Couldn’t have done it without the advice of everyone on this forum.

Cheers!!!!!!

 

[HYGBrewin]

great post GWD. the 4.5 gallons that i ended up w/ 2 weeks ago is already gone after all our friends wanted to get some after having a taste... definitely like the idea of splitting the sugar into demerara and brown. also will have to definitely try the grahm cracker extract. many thanks for the tweaked recipe and feedback!

 

[suprchunk]

Have you tasted it in other beers before? Some people can't taste that particular (intentional in this case) off-flavor.

Uh, yeah. And that is why I said you are only the second person, ever, that I have seen/heard say that they can detect diacetyl. I get that you think you taste it, but I don't taste it. I would think that they would have that showing up in some of their other beers, because it would be something in their process. I haven't seen anybody say that about any of their other lineup, so I'm going out on a limb with people thinking they know what they are tasting, but really don't.

 

[BrewThruYou]

Brewing this today. Going to use Libby's canned pumpkin with rice hulls. Should I use one 29oz can or two? I think it doesn't matter since most of the flavor is coming from spices/extracts, but I thought I should ask.

Ordered some of the Graham Cracker Extract, but I won't need that until secondary.

 

[BudzAndSudz]

Use real pumpkin and throw it in the boil for the last 20 minutes. Canned pumpkin is a gnarly mess to deal with and it absorbs way more than it's fair share of wort.

 

[LakewoodHomeBrew]

I just did a pumpkin ale - threw the (real) pumpkin in the boil for the full 90 min. Pumpkin soaked up quite a bit of wort and, as a result, dropped my OG several points. However, the pumpkin was now deliciously sweet and quickly found its way into a pie.

 

[BrewThruYou]

Use real pumpkin and throw it in the boil for the last 20 minutes. Canned pumpkin is a gnarly mess to deal with and it absorbs way more than it's fair share of wort.

Well, I've used canned pumpkin before and had no such problems. Same thing last night - two 29oz cans, 8oz of rice hulls. No sparge problems, no mess, no absorbing wort (I don't know why it would - it's not dry like grain. It has plenty of moisture content).

Sent from my iPhone 4S using HB Talk

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

I wouldn't put the pumpkin in the boil. I've put it in the mash, and that's what Southern Tier does too. It's purée pumpkin, says so right in the bottle. Plus when I took the tour of their brewery a few weeks back,the guide said it goes in the mash.

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

Ps- I can't find candied Ginger. I looked in the spice isle at the grocery store, and no luck

 

[runningweird]

Ps- I can't find candied Ginger. I looked in the spice isle at the grocery store, and no luck

i got mine from a local coffee/tea store - they had it in bags.

 

[BrewThruYou]

I got the Demerara sugar, light brown sugar and candied ginger from Whole Foods. They called the candied ginger "crystallized ginger." It was all in the same aisle and real close to one another. FYI, organic light brown sugar is $5.99/lb and Domino light brown sugar is $1.49/lb. :/

 

[Jakemo]

Also,2 Tbsp of chopped candied/crystallized ginger fades substantially in 5 gal.

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

Great! Thanks for the info!

 

[runningweird]

gwdlaw I just put 5.5 gallons of this in primary, thanks

 

[bbbblaine]

It's great to hear that somebody had success in cloning this! I tried Pumking and it was by far the best pumpkin pie beer I have ever had. I will be brewing this here soon so that I can have some available for family/friends around Christmas time.

 

[gwdlaw]

Well mine went into bottles about a week ago and the graham cracker flavor had faded a bit in secondary. So i decided to add an extra 1/2 tsp to the bottling bucket just to get it right. I couldn't wait three weeks to see how they turned out, so last night (after being bottled for a week) I cracked a bottle. Graham cracker flavor was there and the pumkin came through well. The bottle hadn't carbonated yet and was a bit flat, but there was CO2 suspended in the liquid. I still have 2 bottles of Pumking on hand for a side-by-side in two weeks. I'll post the tasting results.

In fact, this recipe was so good that I wanted to make sure I had a supply to make it thought the holidays. So I brewed another batch last week. It is bubbling away in primary right now.

 

[ErieShores]

I still have 2 bottles of Pumking on hand for a side-by-side in two weeks. I'll post the tasting results.

It's been two weeks. So?...

 

[richbrew99]

my version got an infection. I saw it all the way through, it tastes like pumkin cider. if I get past the cider taste I can tell it would have been awesome. The pumkin pie flavor is there in the background. Once I dump it out I'll have to try it again.

 

[BrewThruYou]

I racked mine to secondary about 6 days ago. I followed gwdlaw's recipe in Post 191. Hit my FG right on and it tastes great. I also did the Capella graham cracker extract, pumpkin pie spice and vanilla bean soaked vodka in secondary.

I'll probably do a short secondary (I did a longer primary) and keg it. The vanilla infused vodka and liquid extract is mixing with the beer, so I don't think there's any value for the beer to have to "sit" on that stuff.

I thought the hydrometer sample was awesome...almost spot-on for residual sweetness and mouthfeel. Can't wait for the finished product. I'll definitely brew this again...I love Pumking, but it's just so expensive. I paid $9 for a bomber at a bottle shop and $16 for a bomber at a bar.

 

[runningweird]

update on the new recipe, although there is a caveat here.

I kegged it a little while ago and decided to try to cold crash it and have it for thanksgiving - well that went badly. I froze the carboy almost solid.

stupid I know, but i just pulled the third pint of this stuff and its getting pretty good. I don't have a sample of the real stuff to compare to but if I remember right this is close. The extract graham cracker really helps.

The freezing didn't impact head retention, this has a nice head on it - but the hops are a bit forward for the beer - almost overpowering the sweetness and spices. I think some age will help this beer. It's also cloudier than I would like, but that might be a side effect of the freezing problem.

my brewing buddy made the same recipe but bottled it and didn't freeze it, well see how his is in comparison to mine.