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Southern Tier Pumking Clone??

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BUCKNUTS

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insanim8er said:
And many people claimed the world was flat. Doesn't make it true.
Lol starting to think you work there. Like I said i've had the beer many times and while good there IS an artificial taste there.
 

insanim8er

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Lol starting to think you work there. Like I said i've had the beer many times and while good there IS an artificial taste there.
That's the best thing about America, you're free to think what you want no matter how wrong you may be. :D
 

BUCKNUTS

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insanim8er said:
That's the best thing about America, you're free to think what you want no matter how wrong you may be. :D
You have your opinion i have mine.
 

insanim8er

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I totally agree with you on how great Pumking is. It's good, but there is better. It's more of the mystery of how they do it to us homebrewers. Wish I could get the Schlafly, but can't here in MN.

I'm currently drinking a Stevens Point Whole Hog pumpkin ale and it's better than Pumking, probably the best I've had. Perfectly balanced pumpkin ale, sweet but very balanced on the spices. Almost tastes like carrot cake with frosting. I'd suggest checking it out.
Well I'll have to try to get some through another beer trade. It's not distributed here.

I also recently had a pumpkin smasher from big muddy in a beer trade. It too was better than pumking. And last night my GF brought home a Night Owl Pumpkin Ale from Elysian.

I thought that one was better than pumking too. But so far my favorites are schlafly's pumpkin ale and good gourd from cigar city.
 

BUCKNUTS

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insanim8er said:
Well I'll have to try to get some through another beer trade. It's not distributed here. I also recently had a pumpkin smasher from big muddy in a beer trade. It too was better than pumking. And last night my GF brought home a Night Owl Pumpkin Ale from Elysian. I thought that one was better than pumking too. But so far my favorites are schlafly's pumpkin ale and good gourd from cigar city.
Or just stick with the other pumpkin beers that don't have those artificial flavorings in them.
 

insanim8er

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Check this out....



I just saw this today and thought I'd add it, so people can stop wasting their time using extracts that aren't in the pumking.

Here's a southern tier beer that DOES use some sort of flavoring aid:

Notice how it says, "and natural flavors"

Lable laws at work... Enough said...
 

BUCKNUTS

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Ive had warlock it tastes like pumking colored with debittered black malts. It has the artificial tastes
 

BUCKNUTS

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BUCKNUTS said:
Ive had warlock it tastes like pumking colored with debittered black malts. It has the artificial tastes
I should say thst artificial flavoring isnt neccesarily a bad thing, i like Pumpking but it has flavors i've never tssted in nature. There sre those who dont believe extracts have any place in beer but I'm not one of those people. I have used extracts in beer seceral times times with mixed results
 

cwdrake

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As this Warlock is a stout version of Pumking, it almost PROVES that there is some sort of 'natural flavor' added to Pumking as well.
 

BUCKNUTS

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cwdrake said:
As this Warlock is a stout version of Pumking, it almost PROVES that there is some sort of 'natural flavor' added to Pumking as well.
Right. I've had Warlock and it is a darkened version of Pumpking. A buddy of mine had them side by side, i should have done the same, and he agreed with me that the flavor of the 2 is extremely close.
 

SpeedYellow

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This whole question of whether they use extracts versus spices is really tiresome. Who f****ing cares?! We'll never know exactly what they use, so whatever it takes to get a reasonable approximation is a success.
 

cwdrake

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Because they didn't put it on one of them. I'm not convinced that they are required to.
 

BUCKNUTS

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cwdrake said:
Because they didn't put it on one of them. I'm not convinced that they are required to.
I concur. As to the issue of extracts being "tiresome" this is a Pumking clone recipe thread if as many of us suspect Southern Tier uses extracts in this beer cloning it will not be possible without the same flavorings
 

insanim8er

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Because they didn't put it on one of them. I'm not convinced that they are required to.
Great logic..."Hey let's tell people we artificially/naturally flavor this beer, but let's keep THIS one a secret."

Don't you think they would keep it a secret on all their beers? There is a stronger chance they use pixie dust and unicorn horns than artificial flavors. Otherwise they would be breaking the labeling laws regardless if you are convinced or not.

The flavors produced are butter from diacetyl and spices—especially heavy on nutmeg. I also think they use rum to extract their spices, so this could be the artificial flavor you're picking up on. Or the combination of it all appears artificial.

He'll they could very well use a whole different spice no one is thinking of outside of the standard, "pumpkin pie" spice set.
 

BUCKNUTS

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Great logic..."Hey let's tell people we artificially/naturally flavor this beer, but let's keep THIS one a secret."

Don't you think they would keep it a secret on all their beers? There is a stronger chance they use pixie dust and unicorn horns than artificial flavors. Otherwise they would be breaking the labeling laws regardless if you are convinced or not.

The flavors produced are butter from diacetyl and spices—especially heavy on nutmeg. I also think they use rum to extract their spices, so this could be the artificial flavor you're picking up on. Or the combination of it all appears artificial.

He'll they could very well use a whole different spice no one is thinking of outside of the standard, "pumpkin pie" spice set.
Why so hostile bro? Are we not all free to have an opinion? Even in Obama's America? I read your link to the FDA website and the language is ambiguous and vague. I was left with the impression they were recommendations as it stated that repeatedly and also stated it was not binding. You apparently have more faith in corporate America than I do to follow these suggestions. I have had beers with diacetyl in them both intentional and unintentional I don't think that's the flavor in Pumpking. Again that's my opinion :mug::tank:
 

insanim8er

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Why so hostile bro? Are we not all free to have an opinion? Even in Obama's America? I read your link to the FDA website and the language is ambiguous and vague. I was left with the impression they were recommendations as it stated that repeatedly and also stated it was not binding. You apparently have more faith in corporate America than I do to follow these suggestions. I have had beers with diacetyl in them both intentional and unintentional I don't think that's the flavor in Pumpking. Again that's my opinion :mug::tank:
There's no hostility. I'm just amazed at the logic some people use. :mug:
 

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Why can't the natural flavoring be the silver cloud natural pumpkin pie extract? They have both the imitation and the natural extract. I used the natural extract.
 

cwdrake

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Why can't the natural flavoring be the silver cloud natural pumpkin pie extract? They have both the imitation and the natural extract. I used the natural extract.
I agree. But whether they use the silver cloud extract our create their own, this sounds like the closest a homebrewer may be able to get. What is the consensus on the base recipe at this point?
 

BUCKNUTS

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jaywhy said:
+1. I think this proves definitively that they do not use any extracts in Pumking. Simple logic.
It does? It proves it definitively? Lol i enjoy this thread
 

insanim8er

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It does? It proves it definitively? Lol i enjoy this thread
Maybe not with 100% certainty, but it would hold more validity in court than simply saying, "I taste, there for I know." Or, "they can say what they want on the label, so they're tricking us by putting it on one and not the other. Those darn Wonka beer makers!" Hell, maybe they're really messing with us. Maybe they put flavor aids in pumking, but they actually DON'T in warlock.

Damn those tricky southern tier bastards! They sure know how to play mind games.
 

BUCKNUTS

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insanim8er said:
Maybe not with 100% certainty, but it would hold more validity in court than simply saying, "I taste, there for I know." Or, "they can say what they want on the label, so they're tricking us by putting it on one and not the other. Those darn Wonka beer makers!" Hell, maybe they're really messing with us. Maybe they put flavor aids in pumking, but they actually DON'T in warlock. Damn those tricky southern tier bastards! They sure know how to play mind games.
Lol. Well i have the "natural" pumkin pie extract and will be adding it at bottling next weekend i'll post my thoughts when its carbed up. I put natursl in parenthesis because it just doesnt taste that natural to me.
 

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Lol. Well i have the "natural" pumkin pie extract and will be adding it at bottling next weekend i'll post my thoughts when its carbed up. I put natursl in parenthesis because it just doesnt taste that natural to me.
Does it have that Pumking aroma?
 

BUCKNUTS

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ErieShores said:
Does it have that Pumking aroma?
I put a couple drops of it in water and i thought it smelled and tasted like it very curious to try it in my pumpkin ale
 

jaywhy

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BUCKNUTS said:
It does? It proves it definitively? Lol i enjoy this thread
It makes zero sense that they would use extracts in both but only write it on one label. Hence, if they write it on one but not the other, logic dictates that there are no extracts in it.
Forget labeling laws and supposed artificial tastes, this is the closest thing anyone here has to proof that there are no extracts in Pumking.
Unless they are all playing mind games and laughing at us:)
 

brewski09

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jaywhy said:
Unless they are all playing mind games and laughing at us:)
I kinda hope they are. Back to a previous point someone already made though, who cares I they use it? Do WE need to use it to get the right flavor? A clone recipe isn't always a direct scaling of a recipe from a brewery.

:mug:
 

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I kinda hope they are. Back to a previous point someone already made though, who cares I they use it? Do WE need to use it to get the right flavor? A clone recipe isn't always a direct scaling of a recipe from a brewery.

:mug:
I hope they are, too. The guys I met from ST admittedly like to have some fun with the homebrew community. They follow threads on websites such as this. They know what we are chatting about. Maybe they have extracts, maybe they don't. I don't know what the labeling law is nor do I have the (masochistic) desire to read it, but as somebody who works closely with financial regulators, I can tell you that there is often wiggle room in how you interpret the law. Others have expounded on this. Part of the fun of trying to clone this is testing different ingredients and "figuring it out." It would be rather boring and an exercise in recipe reading if they gave away the farm on their label.
 

BUCKNUTS

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jaywhy said:
It makes zero sense that they would use extracts in both but only write it on one label. Hence, if they write it on one but not the other, logic dictates that there are no extracts in it. Forget labeling laws and supposed artificial tastes, this is the closest thing anyone here has to proof that there are no extracts in Pumking. Unless they are all playing mind games and laughing at us:)
I might be able to agree with you that it would make sense but i would not agree that it "definitively" proves anything. Pumpking is a huge $ maker for ST and I put nothing past any company that is trying to protect their bottom line. You may poo poo the anecdotal evidence of my tasting artificial flavorings in the beer but anecdotal evidence is not useless especially in a situation like this where we are sttempting to mimic the flavor of the beer.
 

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Back to the recipe cloning... What's the verdict of the pumpkin pie extract posted a few pages back? I'm thinking of ordering it as long as it is producing favorable results. I'm getting ready to keg my batch. It tastes pretty good, but no way a clone yet.
 

rcs226

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Also, was it the natural, or imitation? And what is the amount/gallon that has had good results?
 

homebrewed505

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so I have read most of the thread. can someone post a final all grain recipe.

Graham cracker extract or not?

butter flavor extract or not?

graham crackers in the mash?

please post a final recipe!!
 

ErieShores

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so I have read most of the thread. can someone post a final all grain recipe.

Graham cracker extract or not?

butter flavor extract or not?

graham crackers in the mash?

please post a final recipe!!
Disclaimer: I don't have any concrete evidence.
-No graham cracker extract! No! No! No!
-Butter flavor is still a possibility.
-I highly doubt they mash graham crackers.
grain bill is a guess but try a simple amber with 2row C-40 and libbys pumpkin.
OG- 1.078
FG-1.013
Bitter with magnum and saaz at 15 target like 35 IBUs
Make a tincture of spices in 151 rum
 

homebrewed505

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here is what i have made of all the chatter. graham cracker in mash. no extract! I used 1lb crystal 60L instead of 12oz crystal 80L. i made my tincture with 4oz absolute vodka instead of rum.

i have not made this yet i plan on brewing friday. does my recipe look ok? butter extract?

p.s.
sorry for spelling and capitalization i have a newborn in my arms typing with one hand :)

My attempt @ “ST Pumking”
OG: 1.080?
FG: 1.018?
Approx.: 8.3% ABV?

Mash:
Mash water 161 step to 154 for 90 min (no sparge)
14lbs 2-Row
1lb Victory
1lb Crystal 60L
1 Box of Graham Crackers crushed
60oz (4 small cans ) pureed pumpkin coated in honey and baked 45 min @350. Cool to 154
1lb Rice Hulls

Boil:
3/4oz. Magnum hops @60 min
1/4oz. Sterling @ 15 min

3/4lb Demerara sugar (added after hot break)
1/4lb light brown sugar (added after hot break)

8oz. Lactose @ 15 min
1/2tsp. Yeast nutrient @ 10 min
1tsp Irish [email protected] 10 min
2Tbsp fine chopped candied [email protected] 5 min
3 cinnamon [email protected] 5 min
1/2tsp whole [email protected] 5 min
1/2tsp nutmeg @ 5 min
1/2tsp [email protected] 5 min

Yeast:
2 packs Safeale US-05

Ferment:
66 degrees for 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary

Secondary:
2 Madagascar Vanilla Beans (split and scrapped and soaked in 4oz of vodka for 2 weeks)
1tsp pumpkin pie spice
 

insanim8er

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here is what i have made of all the chatter. graham cracker in mash. no extract! I used 1lb crystal 60L instead of 12oz crystal 80L. i made my tincture with 4oz absolute vodka instead of rum.

i have not made this yet i plan on brewing friday. does my recipe look ok? butter extract?

p.s.
sorry for spelling and capitalization i have a newborn in my arms typing with one hand :)

My attempt @ “ST Pumking”
OG: 1.080?
FG: 1.018?
Approx.: 8.3% ABV?

Mash:
Mash water 161 step to 154 for 90 min (no sparge)
14lbs 2-Row
1lb Victory
1lb Crystal 60L
1 Box of Graham Crackers crushed
60oz (4 small cans ) pureed pumpkin coated in honey and baked 45 min @350. Cool to 154
1lb Rice Hulls

Boil:
3/4oz. Magnum hops @60 min
1/4oz. Sterling @ 15 min

3/4lb Demerara sugar (added after hot break)
1/4lb light brown sugar (added after hot break)

8oz. Lactose @ 15 min
1/2tsp. Yeast nutrient @ 10 min
1tsp [email protected] 10 min
2Tbsp fine chopped candied [email protected] 5 min
3 cinnamon [email protected] 5 min
1/2tsp whole [email protected] 5 min
1/2tsp nutmeg @ 5 min
1/2tsp [email protected] 5 min

Yeast:
2 packs Safeale US-05

Ferment:
66 degrees for 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary

Secondary:
2 Madagascar Vanilla Beans (split and scrapped and soaked in 4oz of vodka for 2 weeks)
1tsp pumpkin pie spice
First off they use 2 grains. My guess is 2 row and crystal, so I would nix the victory.

I would also nix the graham cracker in the mash. It won't carry though, so it's a waste.

I can tell you with 100% certainty your recipe is WAY too heavily spiced. I think you're better off not adding the spices during the boil (we know they don't) and only adding your tinctctures at bottling. I'd pull a measured amount and add measured amounts of spices until you're happy with the results then scale up.

I don't think there is ginger in there, but then again they add a spice blend not described on the label, so IDK... I do think it's nutmeg heavy though.

I don't think they use lactose. And there's no reason to add yeast nutrients.

I also THINK they go heavy on the brown sugar because it tends to add a rum flavor to the beer.

I also think they use a yeast strain like Ringwood (1187) to produce diacetyl then filter the beer before the yeast removes it. That's how they get that buttery flavor.
 

homebrewed505

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First off they use 2 grains. My guess is 2 row and crystal, so I would nix the victory.

I would also nix the graham cracker in the mash. It won't carry though, so it's a waste.

I can tell you with 100% certainty your recipe is WAY too heavily spiced. I think you're better off not adding the spices during the boil (we know they don't) and only adding your tinctctures at bottling. I'd pull a measured amount and add measured amounts of spices until you're happy with the results then scale up.

I don't think there is ginger in there, but then again they add a spice blend not described on the label, so IDK... I do think it's nutmeg heavy though.

I don't think they use lactose. And there's no reason to add yeast nutrients.

I also THINK they go heavy on the brown sugar because it tends to add a rum flavor to the beer.

I also think they use a yeast strain like Ringwood (1187) to produce diacetyl then filter the beer before the yeast removes it. That's how they get that buttery flavor.
im just going off the recipe from way early on in the thread. I can nix the spices in the boil but others have had success. I have never made a spice tea. Others have said the graham cracker to the mash has had good results?? I add yeast nutrient to all my brews never hurt anything?

I am just confused. I am ready to brew and I like PUMKING so I just want to get close.
 

insanim8er

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im just going off the recipe from way early on in the thread. I can nix the spices in the boil but others have had success. I have never made a spice tea. Others have said the graham cracker to the mash has had good results?? I add yeast nutrient to all my brews never hurt anything?

I am just confused. I am ready to brew and I like PUMKING so I just want to get close.
And it wasn't a clone.

Don't let me detour you. Experiment and do what you think is right. I've mashed with graham and it was definitely in the wort, but never made it to the final product. It gets blown out during fermentation. Plus, I highly doubt they actually use graham in the mash.

You can add nutrients, but it's pointless. All grain has all the nutrients the yeast need. If you're doing an all extract brew, then yes add it.

This thread has been going for several years and it hasn't been cloned. People claim they have it and it's debunked by others, so I don't think you're going to get a Pumking this first attempt.
 
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