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Southern Tier Pumking Clone??

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brewski09

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Cheap cinnamon tastes like bark sometimes to me. Who knows what they put in some of those spice mixes. I've heard the pampered chef pumkin pie spice is awesome in pumpkin beers from a few people (maybe even this thread) and there is a clone recipe out there for it so you don't have to buy it.


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jtp137

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I put the spice in the bottling bucket instead of secondary wonder if that did it


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SpeedYellow

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Just for the heck of it, I'm giving the graham cracker extract another chance since it smells so similar to Pumking. GC extract tastes nasty when added to finished beer, but it's feasible that the off flavors might get fermented out if added earlier. So with this year's pumpkin beer, I'm fermenting 0.5 gal separately, and I added 15 drops of graham cracker extract. I'll report back in a couple weeks.
 

jamsomito

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Had one of these:


Saw this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/southern-tier-pumking-clone-191381/index5.html#post3412084

Now this is happening:


I only have a boil kettle, so I'm going to have to do this BIAB. I have 2 big muslin bags though, in case I need them. Still contemplating doing everything in the mash, or splitting up the pumpkin from the grains and doing 2 mashes, keeping the results of the first one in a fermentation bucket until the 2nd is done, then combining them.

Either way, I think I'm going to rig up some kind of pulley system underneath our outdoor stairs to let the bags drain. My last big grain bill was about 16lbs of grain, and holding that thing up full of water was a bear. Include the pumpkin to plug it up and keep it from draining well and I might fall into the kettle with the grains when my arms give out.

Pretty stoked for this.
 

MrNic

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Had one of these:


Saw this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/southern-tier-pumking-clone-191381/index5.html#post3412084

Now this is happening:


I only have a boil kettle, so I'm going to have to do this BIAB. I have 2 big muslin bags though, in case I need them. Still contemplating doing everything in the mash, or splitting up the pumpkin from the grains and doing 2 mashes, keeping the results of the first one in a fermentation bucket until the 2nd is done, then combining them.

Either way, I think I'm going to rig up some kind of pulley system underneath our outdoor stairs to let the bags drain. My last big grain bill was about 16lbs of grain, and holding that thing up full of water was a bear. Include the pumpkin to plug it up and keep it from draining well and I might fall into the kettle with the grains when my arms give out.

Pretty stoked for this.
That's the recipe I did last year and it's not anything like Pumking.
 

jamsomito

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So what did you find was different?

Although it would be cool to make an exact clone, my process is far from perfect and even if the recipe was spot on, my brewing would not be. I'm aware it'll be different, so I'm just hoping for a great beer. Would you say it fits that definition?
 

MrNic

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So what did you find was different?

Although it would be cool to make an exact clone, my process is far from perfect and even if the recipe was spot on, my brewing would not be. I'm aware it'll be different, so I'm just hoping for a great beer. Would you say it fits that definition?
Too many spices and not enough pie crust character.
 

Swiller

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That's the recipe I did last year and it's not anything like Pumking.
I was going to say that recipe was debunked. There is no actual clone.

I read all the posts. The garham cracker flavoring has been disproved and stated it causes a metallic flavor.

I had pumpking before, and I thought it was awful. But I LOVE schlafly pumpkin. I ended up getting some schlafly pumpkin already this year, and wow.... Was it ever bad (only because it's still very young and needs to age) it was super hot and alcoholic tasting, so I put it in the cellar with plans to open another at thanksgiving.

Is it possible I drank the pumpking too young? It was purchased pretty much the day it released. Maybe I should give it another shot and let it age.
 

Roundhouse

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I just tried this beer. Actually I'm drinking it as I type this. It is by a large margin the most horrible pumpkin beer I've ever had. I honestly don't understand the taste appeal. I definitely get the graham cracker but really nothing else. I'm not sure how to describe this beer. I guess I'd say golden to light amber in color. Clear with no head retention. Low carbonation. Medium bodied (if I'm being generous). An initial hint of bitterness that doesn't linger with zero hop aroma or flavor. Aroma of burnt graham cracker with a flavor of burnt graham cracker. No perceptible pumpkin or traditional pumpkin pie spices. Would not know this is a pumpkin beer without the label. Overall impression is one of soggy graham crackers. Cloning this beer should focus entirely on recreating liquid graham cracker.

Try a Saint Arnold Pumpkinator instead.
 

MrNic

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I just tried this beer. Actually I'm drinking it as I type this. It is by a large margin the most horrible pumpkin beer I've ever had. I honestly don't understand the taste appeal. I definitely get the graham cracker but really nothing else. I'm not sure how to describe this beer. I guess I'd say golden to light amber in color. Clear with no head retention. Low carbonation. Medium bodied (if I'm being generous). An initial hint of bitterness that doesn't linger with zero hop aroma or flavor. Aroma of burnt graham cracker with a flavor of burnt graham cracker. No perceptible pumpkin or traditional pumpkin pie spices. Would not know this is a pumpkin beer without the label. Overall impression is one of soggy graham crackers. Cloning this beer should focus entirely on recreating liquid graham cracker.

Try a Saint Arnold Pumpkinator instead.
...and this helps us clone the beer how?
 

Swiller

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It is by a large margin the most horrible pumpkin beer I've ever had.
This is how I feel about it too! I literally posted above how I thought it was terrible. I wonder if it's because it's REALLY young? It is sept 1st. I'm thinking about getting a bottle and aging it for awhile to see if it becomes better.

I would describe it as a butter rum beer. I was not a fan what-so-ever, but I'll get some and age it and see,
 

Roundhouse

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...and this helps us clone the beer how?
Easy. I gave you the color. Give it no body and little carbonation. I guess mostly American 2 Row with a dash of 20° Crystal for a grain bill. Mash at 153° for an hour. Then just make it taste like soggy graham crackers. You'll absolutely nail it. Done.
 

Swiller

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Easy. I gave you the color. Give it no body and little carbonation. I guess mostly American 2 Row with a dash of 20° Crystal for a grain bill. Mash at 153° for an hour. Then just make it taste like soggy graham crackers. You'll absolutely nail it. Done.
Problem is I like soggy garham crackers. I don't like this beer. I think buttered rum not pumpkin. Try a schlafly pumpkin.
 

Roundhouse

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Problem is I like soggy garham crackers. I don't like this beer. I think buttered rum not pumpkin. Try a schlafly pumpkin.
Fortunately this tastes like burnt graham crackers. Roast them at 400° for an hour. Pour the whole box in the boil at 45 minutes.
 

Roundhouse

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On a more serious note, if I were going to attempt to clone this here's where I'd start.

Mash eff: 75%

12.5 lbs American 2 Row
2 lbs Crystal 20°
.625 oz Magnum @ 60 min
.5 oz Sterling @ 30 min
California Ale Yeast

Mash at 152° for 60 minutes
32 oz of Pumpkin puree in mash.

I don't get any discernible spices so I'm at a loss on where to go from here since it's all about the pie crust aroma and flavor. I'd be tempted to take a graham cracker pie crust and cook it for 400° for one hour and then just add it straight to the mash with a heavy amount of rice hulls but definitely cook it first.
 

Hello

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On a more serious note, if I were going to attempt to clone this here's where I'd start.

Mash eff: 75%

12.5 lbs American 2 Row
2 lbs Crystal 20°
.625 oz Magnum @ 60 min
.5 oz Sterling @ 30 min
California Ale Yeast

Mash at 152° for 60 minutes
32 oz of Pumpkin puree in mash.

I don't get any discernible spices so I'm at a loss on where to go from here since it's all about the pie crust aroma and flavor. I'd be tempted to take a graham cracker pie crust and cook it for 400° for one hour and then just add it straight to the mash with a heavy amount of rice hulls but definitely cook it first.
I'd use Crystal 60L at least. Also, I would use the recipe in post #76...
 

Roundhouse

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It's way too light in color and flavor for 60L unless you keep the quantity down. Perhaps 13.5# American 2 row and 1/2 lb crystal 60 but no more. I was figuring a higher amount of lighter crystal for the body. Pumking only has two malts so keep it simple. We know one will be the base. That pretty much leaves crystal.
 

Hello

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It's way too light in color and flavor for 60L unless you keep the quantity down. Perhaps 13.5# American 2 row and 1/2 lb crystal 60 but no more. I was figuring a higher amount of lighter crystal for the body. Pumking only has two malts so keep it simple. We know one will be the base. That pretty much leaves crystal.

I didn't actually mean it. Like I said, post 76. Not that you even like the beer which is what your entire point really seemed to be. ;)
 

Roundhouse

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I don't like it but cloning anything requires an accurate assessment of the taste and aroma. Using what information that is known is a good place to start. They use two different malts and two different hops. It says so right on the bottle. It's a lighter colored beer with little body. A simple grain bill is going to be the key. That means base malt and probably a lighter crystal or a darker crystal in very small amounts. Since there isn't much flavor from the malts, it's probably not going to be a darker crystal.
 

Sepanik1986

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I actually made a semi clone of this and just used maris otter as the base. I prefer it to "specialty" beers like this one. I usually get better flavors notes from the spices. With my own twist I used less cloves and added a touch more nutmeg than the recipe stated. Just bottled it this weekend and am going to let it sit for 2 weeks in the basement then another two weeks in the fridge before popping one open. When I do open it I'll comment on how close mine is to the real deal
 

MrSnacks

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So I had never had actual Pumpking 'til last night.

I don't think we're ever going to be able to recreate it using normal brewing methods. I looked at the label and the label says it includes "natural flavors."
As natural flavors can mean nearly anything under the sun, I am thinking we are dealing with some sort of industrial food flavoring product that gives it its signature taste.

The FDA defines natural flavor as:

(3) The term natural flavor or natural flavoring means the essential oil, oleoresin, essence or extractive, protein hydrolysate, distillate, or any product of roasting, heating or enzymolysis, which contains the flavoring constituents derived from a spice, fruit or fruit juice, vegetable or vegetable juice, edible yeast, herb, bark, bud, root, leaf or similar plant material, meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, dairy products, or fermentation products thereof, whose significant function in food is flavoring rather than nutritional. Natural flavors, include the natural essence or extractives obtained from plants listed in subpart A of part 582 of this chapter, and the substances listed in 172.510 of this chapter.

The thing to keep in mind is spices are not natural flavors. They're a separate category under the law. Southern Tier is using some sort of processed flavoring in this beer.
 

MrSnacks

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Wouldn't vanilla extract be a natural flavoring?
It depends. It could be labeled as a natural flavor or a spice, or on its own as vanilla extract.

Do you have to parenthetically declare all of the ingredients in flavors that conform to a standard of identity?

Answer: If the flavor is declared by the standardized name (eg. vanilla extract), each ingredient must also be declared parenthetically following the standardized name. However, the standardized flavor may simply be declared as flavoring, natural flavoring, artificial flavoring, as appropriate. 21 CFR 101.22(i) and 21 CFR 169

http://www.fda.gov/food/guidancereg...ryinformation/labelingnutrition/ucm064880.htm


"Natural flavor" just means it at one point derived from a natural source. Unless we figure out which industrial natural flavor compound Southern Tier is using, you'll never get close.

Read this for perspective:

Behind nearly every mango-strawberry juice drink and chipotle-chili corn chip is a flavor company that assembles molecules into flavorings and sells the ingredients to food marketers. Here is how it works:

The Product
If you have ever eaten anything with the word "natural flavor" or "artificial flavor" on the label, you have consumed some of the flavorings made by Givaudan SA GIVN.VX +0.46% and its competitors. Packaged-food companies turn to flavor companies to put the barbecue flavor in potato chips, the lemon-lime twist in a soda and the teriyaki-chicken flavor in a cup of noodles.

Natural flavor indicates that the molecules in the flavoring came from ingredients found in plants or animals, though they don't necessarily come from the same food as the target flavor; some mushroom flavorings, for example, contains molecules isolated from tree bark. Artificial flavor means the molecules were created in a laboratory.

The Process
The first step for a flavoring company is for scientists to analyze which molecules give a specific food its unique taste and smell. Then, a flavorist, whose job is similar to a perfumers', assembles a flavoring from molecules in the company's library.

The flavoring will often contain a set of molecules very similar to the molecules in the original food, but flavorists are also artists to a certain degree, carefully shaping and crafting flavors with various molecules to achieve the desired flavor.

From there, applications experts work the flavorings into specific foods, from ice creams to meats to crackers.

Givaudan continually looks for natural ingredients that can provide better or cheaper molecules to create flavorings already in production, and for new flavors, either from unique natural ingredients (say, a little-known tropical fruit) or based on dishes popular in various parts of the world.

Global blockbusters generally don't exist in this industry, said equity analyst Sebastian Satz of HSBC. Instead, flavors are adjusted for each region.

"An ice cream might be popular in Europe, and the brand will be the same, but the flavor might be slightly different in Germany, France, and Spain," Mr. Satz said.

The Market
The industry makes money by striking contracts for its flavorings with food marketers. Customers include large food makers such as Unilever UL -2.11% PLC, Kraft Foods Inc. and Nestlé SA, NSRGY -1.34% which is also one of Givaudan's major shareholders, said Christoph Wirtz, equity analyst for CA Cheuvreux.

Analysts estimate about 80% of Givaudan's contracts come from companies that put out calls for bids to add flavoring to a specific product. To get these contracts, Givaudan must compete against rivals' bids. Givaudan's "win" rate for these contracts is "over 25%," estimated Alicia Forry, consumer analyst for Canaccord Genuity. Givaudan doesn't disclose the figure.

The remaining contracts come from flavors Givaudan has come up with and convinced a food company to use, said Ms. Forry. The company benefits from these contracts because it is able to charge a premium for a unique product. With emerging markets making up 42% of sales and growing fast, Givaudan is focusing on creating new flavorings for Asia, Latin America and Eastern Europe.


http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303822204577466742058958790
 

tehnick

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I don't have a spot on clone, but I have a recipe that I have been tweaking the past 4 years to get the results that I like and have made some other minor tweaks this year for #5. I may stop at #6 and compare the last three of the series and see which one I like the most. I do have some differences in my process from how ST says they make their beer. My malt profile is different for a few reasons that I'll explain in a bit. I know this is a clone thread and that what I have doesn't match what they do, but it's all about the flavor, right?

I do not use pumpkin puree in the mash, anymore. I have used rice hulls in the mash with pureed pumpkin before and it is a nightmare. The puree can get through some of the false bottom if it is stirred enough to allow it to seep through and it can get in the BK and cause a major pain in the ass when it comes time to bottle and you realize there are super tiny pumpkin bits floating around because way too much puree seeped through and even using a strainer was ineffective and PAINFULLY SLOW. The pumpkin flavor was great though mixed up with the spices, and that gave me an idea of how to incorporate the pumpkin differently and get the same results.

For the malt, I use mainly MO for the base around 65%. I use crystal 80, victory, flaked wheat, and honey malt to round out the rest of the profile. Graham flour is mainly wheat flour that is ground in a specific way with the parts of the grain separated from one another and blended. The malt profile of this beer ends up a bit bready with the honey malt and the crystal giving it the sweetness that you would find in a graham cracker. The MO, wheat, and victory give it that almost cracker-like taste that fits well with the sweeter malts and teams up with the spices/vanilla. I think that extract flavoring is a copout unless you make yourself, and I prefer to use natural ingredients to get the same results as the real ingredients used to make the crackers. See where I am going with this? I'm also planning to toss a couple boxes of graham crackers in the mash in a secondary experimental brew just to see what I get out of it with just MO and Crystal 80 for the malt. I may not do this one right away, but it will be in the near future because people are already starting to bother me with questions about when I'll have my pumpkin ale ready. :\

I use a small to medium sized sugar pumpkin and roast it. The pumpkin is then smashed up pretty well, but not enough to break it into tiny pieces. It is then placed in a medium fine mesh bag and thrown on top of the grain bed after the mash has started and the mash has been properly doughed in so I can convert the starches in the pumpkin to sugars from the malt enzymes. Once the mash is done, I pull the bag, toss it in the HLT to rinse off any grain matter, and set the bag aside. Once I have sparged into the kettle, the pumpkin is introduced into the last 20 minutes of the boil to pull extra pumpkin flavor out and any other sugars that may have gotten absorbed during the mash. Once the boil is done I press out as much wort as I can without imparting too many bits of pumpkin into the wort. If some manages to get in, you can usually get it to drop to the bottom trub.

I generally mash for at least 75 minutes in between a light and medium body to get as much of a fermentable wort as possible without the body getting too thick any malty. I do use some lactose so the beer doesn't dry out too much from the wort fermentability. I won't give away the yeast I use, but it is a high attenuating yeast and sets off the spices extremely well to where I don't need to use an awful lot, but mainly to compliment it. I haven't quite gotten the spices to where I want them, but I am close. I use light clove, moderate ginger, and mainly allspice and cinnamon with a touch of nutmeg to round it out. I boil a small amount of spices and I also do a small extract of them with vodka for finishing touches. Hop profile is basic; Magnum for 60 and some Sterling for 15 to round it off to 28 IBU, 24/4. I always lose a little bit of bitterness from aging so I go a tad higher to keep it right in the sweet spot.

Once it is all dialed in with the nit pick stuff, it will be a nice compliment to the other great pumpkin beers that are out there. But yeah, not a clone, but the flavor rivals it. One of these days I will get a wild hair up my ass and brew this as a saison, or toss some brett into secondary.
 

Boohausen

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this may come surprise to many, but there is no detectable Diacetyl in pumpking, every beer you drink has some in it, its a natural bi-product of yeast fermentation, the PPM dictates the levels that produces the flavor/feeling. There is no graham cracker used in this brew, nor lactose. the vanilla is providing all the creaminess, and smooth presentation. if any, which again is not used. Victory, and Vienna malts give crusty biscuit flavors victory more than vienna, and DME, or extracts cannot give you those desired results of crusty biscuit flavor, that flavor is from the malting and kilning of the grain, which why extract beers miss the target when it comes to flavor. This beer contains spices, and i'll assure you they didn't use fresh pumpkins, it all spiced puree's. These large breweries would not risk using fresh pumpkins, due to spoilage and unstable storage life. they can state fresh pumpkin because the can of puree, is pumpkin, and its fresh when added to the mash. not the boil, so there not lying their just not telling you the whole truth. also as to vanilla concerns, pure extract vanilla is used, again Vanilla is EXPENSIVE breweries save money by pure extracts or imitations, so don't over think this beer. Im stating from experience, most brewers love their jobs, but they wont go to the lengths home brewers do, to achieve taste. In short the simpler the use the more money they make, and more beer runs of the line. Pumpking is one of my favorites, but its only malts, spiced puree, and vanilla...period!
 

Swiller

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I don't think we're ever going to be able to recreate it using normal brewing methods. I looked at the label and the label says it includes "natural flavors."
That's so funny.... Last year the label did NOT have that on it! They do have flavor aids in this beer.

I'm guessing it's a special flavoring they had made for them to get the crust flavor.

If you look back in this thread, there was a huge debate over using natural flavors because of label laws and the lack of that very statement on the label. Warlock had it, but pumpking did not.

Maybe it's something like this one
 
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I brewed this last year w / a buddy. We did about 12 gal and it was as good, if not better, than the commercial version (MHO).
I bought this years release in anticipation of brewing it again. However, Southern Tier has gone WAY over the top w/ cinnamon this year. It's almost undrinkable! You'll definitely need your Chapstick!
Must say I cannot recommend this beer to anyone!


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Swiller

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Southern Tier [...] Must say I cannot recommend this beer to anyone!
I tried it the other year... Hated it. Then I realized it was purchased really fresh. So this year I bought 4 bottles. I'm not opening one until thanks giving. Then another around Christmas. The other two will go into storage until next hear. I want to see if it changes and improves because a lot of people love it. I thought it was disgusting.

But schlafly is the best pumpkin I've had. It's not distributed here, but I acquired some really fresh bottles this year.... I opened one up and wow was it ever bad. It needs a lot of time. This made me realize how aging some styles of beer is important.

Guess we will see now it improves...
 

milldoggy

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That's so funny.... Last year the label did NOT have that on it! They do have flavor aids in this beer.

I'm guessing it's a special flavoring they had made for them to get the crust flavor.

If you look back in this thread, there was a huge debate over using natural flavors because of label laws and the lack of that very statement on the label. Warlock had it, but pumpking did not.

Maybe it's something like this one
Natural flavors = beaver anal glands
 

trimixdiver1

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So there are modifications every year? All I know is this years is not what I remember. Almost has a American pilsner yeasty smell to it.
 
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