Southern Tier Pumking Clone??

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

insanim8er

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
1,652
Reaction score
351
Location
Oregon City
Imho this beer is cloned, pumpkin pie extract is their secret. Tasted it side by side. Good job bulldogbrewer!
I highly doubt it. I doubt they use any type of flavoring extract, or it would show on the label.

The flavor profile is buttered rum. They're probably using Ringwood to get diacetyl, filtering the yeat then getting rum flavors from rum addition, using rum to extract their spices, and/or they're using a lot of brown sugar to get that rum flavor. And it's super heavy in nutmeg.

Look at rouge hazelnut brown nectar. Look at the shocktop honeycrisp apple wheat. They absolutely use flavor additives, and its on the label.
 

BUCKNUTS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
4,058
Reaction score
1,290
Location
Delta
insanim8er said:
I highly doubt it. I doubt they use any type of flavoring extract, or it would show on the label. The flavor profile is buttered rum. They're probably using Ringwood to get diacetyl, filtering the yeat then getting rum flavors from rum addition, using rum to extract their spices, and/or they're using a lot of brown sugar to get that rum flavor. And it's super heavy in nutmeg. Look at rouge hazelnut brown nectar. Look at the shocktop honeycrisp apple wheat. They absolutely use flavor additives, and its on the label.
There is an artificial flavor to pumpking I have always thought it contained an extract
 

elixir

Active Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
39
Reaction score
3
I highly doubt it. I doubt they use any type of flavoring extract, or it would show on the label.

The flavor profile is buttered rum. They're probably using Ringwood to get diacetyl, filtering the yeat then getting rum flavors from rum addition, using rum to extract their spices, and/or they're using a lot of brown sugar to get that rum flavor. And it's super heavy in nutmeg.

Look at rouge hazelnut brown nectar. Look at the shocktop honeycrisp apple wheat. They absolutely use flavor additives, and its on the label.
There is pumpkin pie extract in pumpking, dont believe me. I am using it in gdlaws recipe with great results and my local brewery is now using it. If you knew their exact grain bill/ mash schedule/ hop amounts/ yeast you could make an exact clone
 

elixir

Active Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
39
Reaction score
3
I find that the pumpkin pie extract flavor is so domimant in the flavor profile that even if you werent spot on with st's malt bill it would still taste like pumking
 

insanim8er

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
1,652
Reaction score
351
Location
Oregon City
Well if they're using extract, they're breaking the labeling laws. I'm pretty positive it's not in there.

I'm glad you're getting good results, but I read through this entire thread and I've seena few people who swore they had a clone as well using graham cracker or butter nut extracts. Plus I've seen recipes using more than two grains. It's all on the label.

I think the artificial flavoring being detected is their spice profile extracted with rum. The dominate flavor being nutmeg.

I'm not a huge pumking fan. I just had another one last night and it tastes like a cold butter rum beer.

Now schlafly, they have a damn good pumpkin ale. The nutmeg is also strong in it. I feel it's similar to pumking, but its way better. It's smoother,less bitter and a little heavier in vanilla and spice. It truly is what I think of when I thinks of pumpkin ale.
 

sfrisby

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
1,954
Reaction score
320
Location
Atlanta
insanim8er said:
Well if they're using extract, they're breaking the labeling laws.

I think the artificial flavoring being detected is their spice profile extracted with rum. The dominate flavor being nutmeg.
.
By your argument, wouldn't rum then be on the label?
 

insanim8er

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
1,652
Reaction score
351
Location
Oregon City
By your argument, wouldn't rum then be on the label?
I knew someone would say that. It's not made in a laboratory through natural or artificial means. It's also known that they use alcohol to extract their spices. This has come from southern tier.

Also from what I read, the Plato numbers are contradictory. Means it's logical to asume alcohol is being added.

Take it for what it's worth. My 2¢
 

Wheatmeister

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Messages
146
Reaction score
7
Location
Columbus
There is pumpkin pie extract in pumpking, dont believe me. I am using it in gdlaws recipe with great results and my local brewery is now using it. If you knew their exact grain bill/ mash schedule/ hop amounts/ yeast you could make an exact clone
Ok. I don't believe you. They don't use extract.
 

Nike_Eayrs

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
143
Reaction score
4
Location
green bay
I'm making a second attempt brewing this up this weekend. Crashed and burned on the first one. Stuck sparge with the pumpkin in the mash. I'm throwing it in the boil late this time.

In regards to those hwo have used the extract. Can you provide the amount used in something other than drops? Are we talking a teaspoon, tablespoon....for a 5 gallon batch? I'm trying to limit the adding and mixing as it will make the beer cloudy once in the keg. Thanks for all the help!
 

ErieShores

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2009
Messages
519
Reaction score
30
Location
Buffalo, NY USA
I'd really like some further confirmation that this extract is legit. Also, insanim8er, I'd like to know more about these "labeling laws" you speak of. I'm pretty certain many breweries use extracts (especially in fruit beers) and I've never seen a label mention "contains extract" or anything along those lines.
 

insanim8er

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
1,652
Reaction score
351
Location
Oregon City
I'm making a second attempt brewing this up this weekend. Crashed and burned on the first one. Stuck sparge with the pumpkin in the mash. I'm throwing it in the boil late this time.

In regards to those hwo have used the extract. Can you provide the amount used in something other than drops? Are we talking a teaspoon, tablespoon....for a 5 gallon batch? I'm trying to limit the adding and mixing as it will make the beer cloudy once in the keg. Thanks for all the help!
FWIW

I just got done corresponding with a brew master who creates a world class pumpkin.

He told me they add the Libby's into the fermenter 4-5 days after pitching the yeast.
 

insanim8er

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
1,652
Reaction score
351
Location
Oregon City
Southern Tier adds it to the mash. Confirmed.
True, i like doing it in the mash too because you lose a lot less beer. But he's having issues with it in the mash, so he needs options. I guessing he doesn't have a false bottoms and uses SS hose.

Other option is more rice hulls.
 

Chug

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
101
Reaction score
9
Location
Rural
For those of you that used the pumpkin pie extract, are you using any dry spices at all...in the boil or secondary?
 

elixir

Active Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
39
Reaction score
3
For those of you that used the pumpkin pie extract, are you using any dry spices at all...in the boil or secondary?
I followed gdlaws recipe (spices in the boil) and i added pumpkin pie extract at bottling to taste. The extract is potent (obviously) I used the natural extract. I made another low gravity ale a couple days ago, im not going to use any spices at all, just the extract at kegging. I'm interested to see how it will come out
 

formula2fast

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
261
Reaction score
21
Location
Yorkville
Southern Tier uses flavoring extracts in few of their beers. Pumpking and Creme Bruele are two off the top of my head that I know they do. In terms of labeling laws, I do not beleive alcohol has to follow the same standards as food. In fact, very few beers give the ingredients and I don't know many that give all of them. I am no expert in the field, but just going off of what I see on many alcoholic products. I thought that I heard fairly recently that alcohol products were going to have "nutritional information" labels that gave things like calories and such. I would suspect if that did happen, shortly after would be ingredient listings just like our food products have..
 

Chug

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
101
Reaction score
9
Location
Rural
I followed gdlaws recipe (spices in the boil) and i added pumpkin pie extract at bottling to taste. The extract is potent (obviously) I used the natural extract. I made another low gravity ale a couple days ago, im not going to use any spices at all, just the extract at kegging. I'm interested to see how it will come out
Thanks, keep us up to date on the extract only ale :mug:
 

BUCKNUTS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
4,058
Reaction score
1,290
Location
Delta
formula2fast said:
In terms of labeling laws, I do not beleive alcohol has to follow the same standards as food. In fact, very few beers give the ingredients and I don't know many that give all of them..
This. Most beers I have consumed do not list the ingredients anywhere on their label or packaging. I would be willing to bet money Pumpking has extract(s) in it
 

insanim8er

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
1,652
Reaction score
351
Location
Oregon City
This. Most beers I have consumed do not list the ingredients anywhere on their label or packaging. I would be willing to bet money Pumpking has extract(s) in it
I'd be willing to take your money.

There's a list of "legal" additives beer companies can use in their beer and not list on their labels.

If flavor aids are added through artificial or natural means, it HAS to be on the label. They don't have to list their recipe, but they do have to inform the consumer of whats in their beverage. Labeling laws are convoluted, but all consumable products have to follow the same laws. Even consumable products manufactured over seas and sold to the US have to follow our labeling laws (this does goes for more than just consumable products).

Go look at all the labels of beers 100% proven to use flavor aids. Like I said, rouge hazelnut brown nectar or shocktop apple wheat. Look up wild blue blueberry lager. All the labels state the use of natural or artificial flavors.







Its flavors made from a laboratory, such as your pumpkin pie, graham cracker or butter nut extracts that has to be on the label.

If I were to make almond extract from a peach pitch, then it would have to be on the label as natural flavor

If I were to make almond extract from banana and vinegar (to get the same compound found in the peach pit) then it would have to be added to the label as artificial flavor.

Here's a link to the FDA

It says, "(c) a declaration of added flavor, such as any spices, natural flavors, or artificial flavors, as specified in 21 CFR 101.22(h);"

Decleration means announcement FYI

You're barking up the wrong tree trying to clone this beer. That's why it's been unsuccessful for several years.
 

insanim8er

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
1,652
Reaction score
351
Location
Oregon City
Southern Tier uses flavoring extracts in few of their beers. Pumpking and Creme Bruele are two off the top of my head that I know they do..
What do they use in creme brûlée other than vanilla bean? And how do you KNOW they use extract? Do you have the recipe from them?

They can extract their spices with grain alcohol (and this is what they do since the brew master said it himself) and not put natural or artificial on the label. But according to label laws, they have to list the spices used.

Coke doesn't have to put their recipe on their label because it protects them, but they still have to show "natural flavors" on the ingredients.
 

BUCKNUTS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
4,058
Reaction score
1,290
Location
Delta
I'd be willing to take your money.

There's a list of "legal" additives beer companies can use in their beer and not list on their labels.

If flavor aids are added through artificial or natural means, it HAS to be on the label. They don't have to list their recipe, but they do have to inform the consumer of whats in their beverage. Labeling laws are convoluted, but all consumable products have to follow the same laws. Even consumable products manufactured over seas and sold to the US have to follow our labeling laws (this does goes for more than just consumable products).

Go look at all the labels of beers 100% proven to use flavor aids. Like I said, rouge hazelnut brown nectar or shocktop apple wheat. Look up wild blue blueberry lager. All the labels state the use of natural or artificial flavors.


Its flavors made from a laboratory, such as your pumpkin pie, graham cracker or butter nut extracts that has to be on the label.

If I were to make almond extract from a peach pitch, then it would have to be on the label as natural flavor

If I were to make almond extract from banana and vinegar (to get the same compound found in the peach pit) then it would have to be added to the label as artificial flavor.

Here's a link to the FDA

It says, "(c) a declaration of added flavor, such as any spices, natural flavors, or artificial flavors, as specified in 21 CFR 101.22(h);"

Decleration means announcement FYI

You're barking up the wrong tree trying to clone this beer. That's why it's been unsuccessful for several years.
Guidance for Industry: Labeling of Certain Beers Subject to the Labeling Jurisdiction of the Food and Drug Administration; Draft Guidance
Contains Nonbinding Recommendations
August 2009

Draft Guidance
Additional copies are available from:
Office of Nutrition, Labeling and Dietary Supplements
Food Labeling and Standards Staff
Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition
Food and Drug Administration
5100 Paint Branch Parkway
College Park, MD 20740
(Tel) 301-436-2371 (Updated phone: 240-402-2371)
http://www.fda.gov/FoodGuidances
You may submit written or electronic comments regarding this guidance at any time. Submit written comments on the guidance to the Division of Dockets Management (HFA-305), Food and Drug Administration, 5630 Fishers Lane, rm. 1061, Rockville, MD 20852. Submit electronic comments to http://www.regulations.gov. All comments should be identified with the docket number listed in the notice of availability that publishes in the Federal Register.

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
Food and Drug Administration
Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition
August 2009

Contains Nonbinding Recommendations

Draft — Not for Implementation

Table of Contents
Introduction
Background
Discussion
References
Contains Nonbinding Recommendations

Draft — Not for Implementation

Guidance for Industry1
Labeling of Certain Beers Subject to the Labeling Jurisdiction of the Food and Drug Administration
This guidance represents the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA's) current thinking on this topic. It does not create or confer any rights for or on any person and does not operate to bind FDA or the public. You can use an alternative approach if the approach satisfies the requirements of the applicable statutes and regulations. If you want to discuss an alternative approach, contact the FDA staff responsible for implementing this guidance. If you cannot identify the appropriate FDA staff, call the telephone number listed on the title page of this guidance.


Sounds less than legally binding to me. I've had Pumpking many many times as well as many many many other pumpkin beers and I believe it has artificial flavors present in it.
 

Chug

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
101
Reaction score
9
Location
Rural
Dammit. I ordered the extract from silver cloud, but just realized it was the imitation, not the natural. It still says in the description it can be used in beer so hoping I'm alright. :eek:
 

elixir

Active Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
39
Reaction score
3
Chug said:
Dammit. I ordered the extract from silver cloud, but just realized it was the imitation, not the natural. It still says in the description it can be used in beer so hoping I'm alright. :eek:
I've tasted both, they're both very similar.
 

jnr1005

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
128
Reaction score
11
Okay...so we brewed this 3 weeks ago. Yeasterday we opened it up to check on it, add the spices, ect... and the gravity was 1.035. (Started at around 1.85). The taste on brew day was nice and sweet, but yeasterday it was slightly alcohol and bitter...

1. Shouldn't it have hit FG by now (after 3 weeks)? We did a starter but no stir plate so maybe it didn't help as much.

2. Should I do another starter since we have a stir plate now and toss in some fresh yeasties?

3. Should I be concerned about the bitter taste? There was no sign of an infection or anything, but it was deffinitly not as sweet as our christmas ale we brewed the same week and it started off sweeter...

I'm just cratching my head because its not down where it should be (was still bubbling last week and let off a lot of CO2 when we opened it) but I thought the majority of fementation was supposed to happen by now...

Temps are kept around 65 degrees, pitched yeast at 68 or so, and I had it attached to a blow off for a long time but switched to bubbler this last week.
 

SpeedYellow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
1,519
Reaction score
206
Location
Chicago
If you've only hit 58% attenuation after 3 weeks, then yeah I'd say you didn't pitch enough happy healthy yeast. Long ferment times has been the main difference I've seen from pitch rates. Nothing you can do about it now, because the "damage is done." But I'm not saying the beer will be any worse off -- heck, maybe underpitching might even help here, who knows.

P.s. the Fermentation and Yeast forum would get you better answers to questions like that.
 

waldzinator

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2013
Messages
146
Reaction score
11
Location
Waxhaw
Finally got around to bottling the beer I made here. Some notes. I left it in the secondary for about 5 weeks. I got really busy coaching football, home repairs, etc. AKA, HOMEbrewer problems.

Starting was around 1.080, finishing around 1.020. Color was WAY darker than Pumking. Not like Porter vs Budweiser darker, but noticeably darker. I also did not add v-beans to secondary...HOMEbrewer problems. So, I rode the wave of my graham crackers in mash and spices. The flavor is good. It's not Pumking, but it's damn closer than anything I've done so far. It has a nice warming alcohol sensation on the way down. The hop level and spiciness are dead on. It's thin, though. This is due to my mash mishap where I mashed at 146.

I refuse to brew it again this year, simply because I don't have all day to sit and watch my lauter run slowly and stick every few minutes. If I do it again, definitely heavier on the graham cracker, better temperature control during mash (by factoring the pumpkin), and a little lighter on the speciality malts. Overall, a good drinking pumpkin beer that I will enjoy this fall. I'll probably age a few out for a year just to see...
 

mallob9

Active Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
34
Reaction score
0
Location
Ouray
I just racked my attempt at this into the secondary. The nose if FANTASTIC it smells exactly the way i want it to taste. The taste however is rather alcoholey and honestly not that great. I'm hoping it settles down in the secondary and and during the aging.
 

waldzinator

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2013
Messages
146
Reaction score
11
Location
Waxhaw
I just racked my attempt at this into the secondary. The nose if FANTASTIC it smells exactly the way i want it to taste. The taste however is rather alcoholey and honestly not that great. I'm hoping it settles down in the secondary and and during the aging.
I caught a couple of big fusel alcohol-like tastes in mine though. I always pour myself a flat, warm glass at bottling. A couple of sips had the taste, a couple didn't. I imagine it will ease with time.
 

insanim8er

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
1,652
Reaction score
351
Location
Oregon City
Well I emailed southern tier about pumking. Their brewmaster finally emailed me back.

I asked if they add anything artificial into the beer that isn't stated on the label. The answer was:

We add a special mix of spices that are not listed on the label. We add this as well as pumpkin to Pumking.

Now I don't consider "spices" as being an extract; however I know this answer is pretty ambiguous, so I emailed back restating my original question about artificial flavors.

He replied back right away with: It is a natural mix of spices.

I also emailed the FDA to get an answer about the label laws to get a definitive answer. I haven't heard back and every time I call they're closed.

But I'm 100% satisfied that pumpkin does NOT contain any artificial flavor aids such as pumpkin pie extract.
 

ErieShores

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2009
Messages
519
Reaction score
30
Location
Buffalo, NY USA
Southern Tier is like the Willy Wonka of brewing. Everyone wants to know what goes on inside. I still maintain that there is something added in addition to spices.
 

sfrisby

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
1,954
Reaction score
320
Location
Atlanta
insanim8er said:
I also emailed the FDA to get an answer about the label laws to get a definitive answer. I haven't heard back and every time I call they're closed.
try calling when the government isn't shut down. ;)
 

BUCKNUTS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
4,058
Reaction score
1,290
Location
Delta
ErieShores said:
Southern Tier is like the Willy Wonka of brewing. Everyone wants to know what goes on inside. I still maintain that there is something added in addition to spices.
I agree 100% with this post. There are many breweries who are very forthcoming about ingredients and openly share recipes with us hombrewers but Southern Tier isnt one of them. Regardless of what they claim in an email I taste things that arent natural in Pumking.
 

insanim8er

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
1,652
Reaction score
351
Location
Oregon City
I agree 100% with this post. There are many breweries who are very forthcoming about ingredients and openly share recipes with us hombrewers but Southern Tier isnt one of them. Regardless of what they claim in an email I taste things that arent natural in Pumking.
And many people claimed the world was flat. Doesn't make it true.
 

Chug

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
101
Reaction score
9
Location
Rural
I agree 100% with this post. There are many breweries who are very forthcoming about ingredients and openly share recipes with us hombrewers but Southern Tier isnt one of them. Regardless of what they claim in an email I taste things that arent natural in Pumking.
I feel the same way. There's no way we're tasting just malt, yeast, and spices while drinking Pumking. They're using an extract, probably proprietary. As far as label laws go, you can't tell me with a straight face they're not using artificial flavoring in creme brûlée as well.
 

insanim8er

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
1,652
Reaction score
351
Location
Oregon City
I feel the same way. There's no way we're tasting just malt, yeast, and spices while drinking Pumking. They're using an extract, probably proprietary. As far as label laws go, you can't tell me with a straight face they're not using artificial flavoring in creme brûlée as well.
Well I would say it's brewed with vanilla bean as the lable indicates since it doesn't say made with natural vanilla flavor. But you can only beat a dead cat for so long. I've given plenty of proof to back my side. All I get in reply is, "I taste." Well good luck on several more years of cloning attempts with extracts.
 

Chug

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
101
Reaction score
9
Location
Rural
Well I would say it's brewed with vanilla bean as the lable indicates since it doesn't say made with natural vanilla flavor. But you can only beat a dead cat for so long. I've given plenty of proof to back my side. All I get in reply is, "I taste." Well good luck on several more years of cloning attempts with extracts.
And many good years to your "cloning" attempts with natural ingredients...By the way, I got the silver estates pumpkin pie extract in the mail the other day. I currently have the imperial pumpkin pie ale recipe here from HBT on tap with some slight adjustments (It came in at 9.4% ABV and I used Maris otter and added some flaked oats). Excellent pumpkin beer. So I decided to pull a pint and add a couple drops of extract to it. Not much going on. Couple more drops, more aroma from the extract but no dice. It is not Pumking.

Maybe it'd be better to add it to a base pumpkin beer without spices added but as of right now it doesn't remind of anything close to Pumking. But I still don't believe they don't use an extract of some sort to achieve that Pumking flavor. Just my opinion man, thanks for your contribution.
 

insanim8er

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
1,652
Reaction score
351
Location
Oregon City
And many good years to your "cloning" attempts with natural ingredients...By the way, I got the silver estates pumpkin pie extract in the mail the other day. I currently have the imperial pumpkin pie ale recipe here from HBT on tap with some slight adjustments (It came in at 9.4% ABV and I used Maris otter and added some flaked oats). Excellent pumpkin beer. So I decided to pull a pint and add a couple drops of extract to it. Not much going on. Couple more drops, more aroma from the extract but no dice. It is not Pumking.

Maybe it'd be better to add it to a base pumpkin beer without spices added but as of right now it doesn't remind of anything close to Pumking. But I still don't believe they don't use a proprietary extract of some sort to achieve that Pumking flavor. Just my opinion man, thanks for your contribution.
I don't even think pumking is all that great. I think creating a better pumpkin ale is possible with 100% certainty of no extracts used. That's what I'm putting my time into.

If you haven't had schlafly, try it. I got it in a beer trade, and it's awesome. Also the good gourd from cigar city. Those are the pumpkins I want to emulate. I just wanted to add some insight on this clone because I honestly think extract is the wrong approach. But to each their own.
 

Chug

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
101
Reaction score
9
Location
Rural
I don't even think pumking is all that great. I think creating a better pumpkin ale is possible with 100% certainty of no extracts used. That's what I'm putting my time into.

If you haven't had schlafly, try it. I got it in a beer trade, and it's awesome. Also the good gourd from cigar city. Those are the pumpkins I want to emulate. I just wanted to add some insight on this clone because I honestly think extract is the wrong approach. But to each their own.
I totally agree with you on how great Pumking is. It's good, but there is better. It's more of the mystery of how they do it to us homebrewers. Wish I could get the Schlafly, but can't here in MN.

I'm currently drinking a Stevens Point Whole Hog pumpkin ale and it's better than Pumking, probably the best I've had. Perfectly balanced pumpkin ale, sweet but very balanced on the spices. Almost tastes like carrot cake with frosting. I'd suggest checking it out.
 
Top