Souring [the good type] during secondary fermentation?

[deeve007]

Probably an obvious newbie question is there any way to add sour characteristics during secondary fermentation, to create even a "semi" sour beer?

I ask as my previous beer I secondary fermented with dark & red fruits came out with a lovely subtle fruit flavour, very decent, but as I was drinking it thought how amazing this flavour would be if it had a sour aspect to it.

So possible, or not really...?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Yes, you need to add a strain of Pediococcus (for souring) along with Brettanomyces (to cleanup diacetyl and exopolysaccharides - aka ropiness - from the Pedio). It takes a long time - at least a year. Lactobacillus won't work assuming you have a reasonable amount of hops in your beer - it's quite intolerant to hops.

Alternatively, you could just try adding lactic acid directly to the finished beer. Try adding a few drops to a glass of beer to see what it's like and scale up from there if it's good.

 

[deeve007]

Yeah, can't wait a year, so might source some lactic acid and do some experimenting with that

 

[Gnomebrewer]

For future batches you could also look at souring before the main fermentation (kettle souring) or alongside the primary ferment (co-pitching saccharomyces yeast with lactobacillus). My preference is a co-pitch but there are advantages and disadvantages to each. Don't use hops if you go with this method. And I agree that 'sour' works really nicely with fruit - it's because most fruits have a pH in the range of sour beers so the flavours are more what we're used to, compared with non-sour beer.

 

[deeve007]

I definitely will be, it is my favourite style, but wanted to get a few probably slightly easier styles under my belt first. It was more that this particular beer (after secondary fermenting with red fruits) just lent itself to the style so much.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

A simple co-pitch sour is no more difficult than any other beer style and doesn't need any special sanitation or extra cleaning. If it's your favourite style, then go for it! Sours only get more challenging when you get into long-term mixed culture ferments.

 

[deeve007]

The difficulty I have is not being able to hold the required temperature for one or two days that sours appear to require, and can't buy the equipment needed to do that until I'm back home next year.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Elevated temperatures aren't needed for co-pitching. They're only needed if you kettle sour, to get the souring happening quickly before other nasties take hold. When you co-pitch Lactobacillus plantarum with an ale yeast, normal ale fermentation temperatures are all that's needed.

 

[deeve007]

Elevated temperatures aren't needed for co-pitching. They're only needed if you kettle sour, to get the souring happening quickly before other nasties take hold. When you co-pitch Lactobacillus plantarum with an ale yeast, normal ale fermentation temperatures are all that's needed.

Ahhhh.... wasn't aware of this.

Any links to some more info on this? I tried googling "co-pitching" and some beer terms and didn't find much (will obviously try some more now...)

Or do I literally just add Lactobacillus plantarum along with yeast to a beer style of my choosing, and it's that simple?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

There is some info here (called MTF Reverse Kettle Sour....a term I really don't like).
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Alternative_Bacteria_Sources#MTF_.22Reverse_Kettle_Sour.22
Thers's a lot about it in this thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/making-a-sour.665525/
@RPh_Guy is also a fan of co-pitching rather than kettle souring.

You can't just use Lactobacillus plantarum in any beer style - it's extremely hop intolerant so don't use any hops.
Basically, I use 50% pils malt and 50% wheat malt to reach about 1.040, boil for 15 minutes, chill as normal then pitch yeast and lactobacillus at the same time, leave for a couple of weeks, bottle. FWIW, I use Lallemand sourpitch for my lacto.

 

[deeve007]

Excellent, thanks for that info!! And yeah, knew about the hops thing, but other stuff will check out, and maybe my next beer!

Thanks again!!

 

[deeve007]

Basically, I use 50% pils malt and 50% wheat malt to reach about 1.040, boil for 15 minutes, chill as normal then pitch yeast and lactobacillus at the same time, leave for a couple of weeks, bottle.

Is there a particular yeast you would recommend? Or a reliable common one, in case not huge amount of options where I am?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

US05 works fine. I prefer WLP644 (it has a lot more character) but it's harder to get. US05 gives a very neutral sour that should work well with fruit.

 

[deeve007]

Thanks mate! Yep, that's easy to get, but will keep an eye out for the other one too

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks for the mention.

To sum up, this is the basic co-sour process:

• Make wort and chill as normal. Zero hops.
• Pitch yeast and L. plantarum together.
• Ferment at 65°F (18°C) or higher.
• Optional: after reaching the desired sourness, add hops via dry hops or hop tea.
• Package as normal.

If you want greater yeast expression, delay pitching the Lacto for about 1-2 days after pitching the yeast (AKA post-souring).

These methods are simple, safe, and effective.

 

[Jag75]

@ deeve007- I highly suggest the co pitch method. I've had so many people ask for me to make this beer for them . With RPH guys help this was a homerun. Multiple people have said it's the best sour they've had .

 

[deeve007]

Yep, gonna give it a go, ingredients on their way!

 

[deeve007]

Basically, I use 50% pils malt and 50% wheat malt to reach about 1.040, boil for 15 minutes, chill as normal then pitch yeast and lactobacillus at the same time, leave for a couple of weeks, bottle. FWIW, I use Lallemand sourpitch for my lacto.

Gonna try out your recipe this week, can I ask why you boil for just 15 minutes rather than longer as per most recipes?

 

[RPh_Guy]

You can skip the boil entirely if you want.

Boiling is mainly to extract hop bitterness, which is unneeded in this case.

 

[deeve007]

Ahhh... interesting, something else learned today...

 

[deeve007]

@RPh_Guy so to make a gose style using the above base recipe, it's as simple as adding coriander seeds and salt in the boil, is that correct?

Any experience of the amount to add of each, and when?

Considering a lime (zest) and jalapeno gose...

 

[RPh_Guy]

My gose-inspired ale is 60% American white wheat malt and 40% Belgian pilsner malt mashed at 150°F for 60 min. I aim close to 1.050 (10lbs grain for 5.5 gal wort).

7.25 gal RO strike water @ 156°F with 3.9g gypsum, 5.1g CaCl2 (anhydrous), and 14g NaCl
=
100 ppm calcium
201 ppm sodium
427 ppm chloride
80 ppm sulfate

I boil mine for 60 minutes. I'm currently trying to dial in my low-oxygen brewing process and part of it is that the boil causes break formation, which I attempt to remove. People using a normal brewing process can skip the boil without consequence.

I copitch US-05 and the RenewLife Lacto blend and ferment at 66-67°F. It finishes in about 5 days and then I bottle.

I don't use coriander, but rather I add an Amarillo hop tea at packaging: 0.75oz boiled for 5 minutes in about 300-400mL RO water and rapidly chilled.
I call it "American Gose".

I've never used coriander, lime, or jalapeño, so I can't help much with the quantities.
For adjuncts like those I generally recommend making a tincture or hot tea and adding it to taste using a bench trial when packaging. It's more work but it guarantees the right amounts for your taste. You can also add more salt at packaging, if desired.

Hope this helps.

 

[Miraculix]

My gose-inspired ale is 60% American white wheat malt and 40% Belgian pilsner malt mashed at 150°F for 60 min. I aim close to 1.050 (10lbs grain for 5.5 gal wort).

7.25 gal RO strike water @ 156°F with 3.9g gypsum, 5.1g CaCl2 (anhydrous), and 14g NaCl
=
100 ppm calcium
201 ppm sodium
427 ppm chloride
80 ppm sulfate

I boil mine for 60 minutes. I'm currently trying to dial in my low-oxygen brewing process and part of it is that the boil causes break formation, which I attempt to remove. People using a normal brewing process can skip the boil without consequence.

I copitch US-05 and the RenewLife Lacto blend and ferment at 66-67°F. It finishes in about 5 days and then I bottle.

I don't use coriander, but rather I add an Amarillo hop tea at packaging: 0.75oz boiled for 5 minutes in about 300-400mL RO water and rapidly chilled.
I call it "American Gose".

I've never used coriander, lime, or jalapeño, so I can't help much with the quantities.
For adjuncts like those I generally recommend making a tincture or hot tea and adding it to taste using a bench trial when packaging. It's more work but it guarantees the right amounts for your taste. You can also add more salt at packaging, if desired.

Hope this helps.

Do you get a decent head on your sours?

 

[RPh_Guy]

My single infusion beers have never had good head retention.

I just upgraded to a RIMS and the one beer I step mashed so far has dramatically increased retention and lacing (on par with good commercial beer).
I haven't yet made a step-mashed sour, so I don't know whether my souring process has any effect on head.

 

[Miraculix]

My single infusion beers have never had good head retention.

I just upgraded to a RIMS and the one beer I step mashed so far has dramatically increased retention and lacing (on par with good commercial beer).
I haven't yet made a step-mashed sour, so I don't know whether my souring process has any affect on head.

From my experience, it is a rest at 72c or higher, best a 20min mashout step at 77c that really increases the head. Glycoproteins are formed at this temperature and they are the reason for the increased head.

I biab but always do the mashout step for this very reason only.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

so to make a gose style using the above base recipe, it's as simple as adding coriander seeds and salt in the boil, is that correct?

Any experience of the amount to add of each, and when?

My Gose is about 1.040OG. I use about 12g of salt and 16g of coriander seed for 20L, which gives a noticeable but not overpowering effect. I simmer mine for a few minutes in a little bit of water then add it to the fermenter (because I forgot to add it to the wort boil the first time, and it worked well, so I keep doing it). The quality and freshness of the coriander will make a BIG difference though. In comparison, MTF Gose uses less salt (about 9g) and more coriander (about 18g).

 

[deeve007]

My Gose is about 1.040OG. I use about 12g of salt and 16g of coriander seed for 20L, which gives a noticeable but not overpowering effect. I simmer mine for a few minutes in a little bit of water then add it to the fermenter (because I forgot to add it to the wort boil the first time, and it worked well, so I keep doing it). The quality and freshness of the coriander will make a BIG difference though. In comparison, MTF Gose uses less salt (about 9g) and more coriander (about 18g).

I might try adding for last 5 minutes of boil, to see if that works well too (and saves me the extra step).

Gonna stick to 10L batches for a while now, so I can try more recipes (and more techniques like this), and use the equipment I have without needing to do split batches (which worked great 3 times, but something went funky the 4th - so remove that easily addressed step until other parts mastered).

 

[RPh_Guy]

Just trying to help you out. I've had more than one batch ruined by adding too much spice -- using quantities people suggest, and even quantities I've used successfully before but different level of freshness.

 

[deeve007]

There is some info here (called MTF Reverse Kettle Sour....a term I really don't like).
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Alternative_Bacteria_Sources#MTF_.22Reverse_Kettle_Sour.22
Thers's a lot about it in this thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/making-a-sour.665525/
@RPh_Guy is also a fan of co-pitching rather than kettle souring.

You can't just use Lactobacillus plantarum in any beer style - it's extremely hop intolerant so don't use any hops.
Basically, I use 50% pils malt and 50% wheat malt to reach about 1.040, boil for 15 minutes, chill as normal then pitch yeast and lactobacillus at the same time, leave for a couple of weeks, bottle. FWIW, I use Lallemand sourpitch for my lacto.

50% pils malt and 50% wheat malt, has worked great for the two sours I've done so far! Do you have any variations you've tried on that grai bill that also worked, maybe added something different to the final result?

 

[Jag75]

50% pils malt and 50% wheat malt, has worked great for the two sours I've done so far! Do you have any variations you've tried on that grai bill that also worked, maybe added something different to the final result?

I've been brewing 70% 2 row and 30% white wheat