Sour brewing NooB question

[Calder]

In choosing what fermentor to use I am still uncertain. How much trub/yeast cake is will there be, and how vigorous is the initial fermentation? Will I need a lot of head space or a blow off tube? If yes to any of these, I would opt for using a bucket initially and then racking into a glass carboy. Also, when should I add the currants? Seems like there is no need for ANY racking? Leave it in the same vessel the entire time? How will I rack into a bottling bucket or take gravity sample without disturbing the pellicle, which I have heard is undesirable?

I generally rack to a fresh fermenter as fermentation starts to slow down and I see a definite layer in the bottom of the fermenter.

That way, I leave the 'trub' behind, but carry over everything in suspension, which includes a substantial amount of yeast, brett and bugs.

After that, it stays in the same vessel for the whole time.

If you want to add currants, you are looking at somewhere around the 8 to 12 month time frame. You want to wait until the sacc is dead, so the currants will be worked on by the bugs rather than the sacc yeast.

I know you will want to, but try and not take a gravity sample. Often nothing will have happened to the gravity, but I can assure you the brett is changing the beer profile.

If you have to, don't worry about breaking any pellicle, the bugs (probably Brett) will repair it, with no damage to the beer. Read up .... you will have time ..... some people think the occasional check of the beer and allowing some O2 helps the beer. I just leave mine alone and they do just fine.

 

[TravisT]

my only advice is to keep making sour beers, my oldest beer is only 6 months old and still aging, I brew a new sour every 2 months(give or take). I have 20gl in my closet at different stages. In a year or more i plan to have 8-9 sours and always have a sour on tap. I will have a nice pipeline going. It does get old buying a bunch of 5gl carboys all the time. I would hate to make a great beer then have to wait a year for another one. good luck.

 

[TrickyDick]

Alright,

I think I've been bit by the sour bug. Went to the local liquor store independently owned with best selection. I found some sour beer! Not anything fantastic and yes, I drank it already...

Rodenbach - really, this is supposed to be sour? OK it a teensy but sour...

Saint Somewhere (HAH! a Local FL brewery! I'm going to make a pilgrimage soon!)
- Lectio Divina. Not very sour and a slight funk to it. A good beer. Have another by this brewery,
- Saison Athene, not yet opened. They also brew a dubbel but couldn't find.

The best find (And too bad I only got 1 bottle)
Duchesse De Bourgogne - by Kasteel Gaasbeek???? Who can interpret these crazy belgian labels!
Now we're talking! This is a brown/amber brew with plenty of satisfying pucker power!
Best of the bunch.

Found a DFH 61 Syrah must IPA. Not really a sour at all. Also found a collaboration Saison by Victory, Stone and DFH.

Question - how do I save the dregs from the sour beers? Re-cap?

I feel like I did back when I first fell in love with hoppy beer, now its sour beer, only the wasteland of options is more desolate!

Can I back sour previous brewed beers?

Time for bed I think.. I'm getting visions. Did I mention the first two beers were in 750ml bottles?

TD

 

[Weezy]

Alright,

I think I've been bit by the sour bug. Went to the local liquor store independently owned with best selection. I found some sour beer! Not anything fantastic and yes, I drank it already...

Rodenbach - really, this is supposed to be sour? OK it a teensy but sour...

Saint Somewhere (HAH! a Local FL brewery! I'm going to make a pilgrimage soon!)
- Lectio Divina. Not very sour and a slight funk to it. A good beer. Have another by this brewery,
- Saison Athene, not yet opened. They also brew a dubbel but couldn't find.

The best find (And too bad I only got 1 bottle)
Duchesse De Bourgogne - by Kasteel Gaasbeek???? Who can interpret these crazy belgian labels!
Now we're talking! This is a brown/amber brew with plenty of satisfying pucker power!
Best of the bunch.

Found a DFH 61 Syrah must IPA. Not really a sour at all. Also found a collaboration Saison by Victory, Stone and DFH.

Glad you found some stuff. Looking at pubquest, it looks like Hourlass Brewery in Longwood is going to be starting some sour projects soon. I'd go chit-chat with those guys.

Question - how do I save the dregs from the sour beers? Re-cap?

Make like 8 ozs worth of some 1.030 wort from DME and add it right to he bottle. Then step that up with further starters, until you have enough yeast slurry to save.

Here's some real good info on keeping the cultures:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2011/03/maintaining-brett-and-lacto-cultures.html

I feel like I did back when I first fell in love with hoppy beer, now its sour beer, only the wasteland of options is more desolate!

Can I back sour previous brewed beers?

If the beer is still in bulk form (carboy or keg; not bottled) you can add Brett or Lacto or Pedio right to it. Store it in a cool place (if you can! You are in Florida!) and be patient (i.e. months).

Time for bed I think.. I'm getting visions. Did I mention the first two beers were in 750ml bottles?

TD

Bomber bottles are common for this type of beer. People don't seem to mind spending a premium for them.

 

[allenH]

The 2 Saint Somewhere beers you picked up are open fermented saisons with WL565 and bottle carbed with Brett B. if you find a Pays Du Soleil from them, that should get you some Brett L. They make some great funky saisons, but no sours (lacto/pedio) that I know of. The Saison Athene is my favorite. Duchesse and Rodenbach are the only sours I ever see here on a regular basis.

 

[PJoyce85]

Whatever sours you pick up, make sure to Google them and make sure they aren't pasteurized. Some sours (like your Rodenbach) are pasteurized and bottled with an ale strain so that would be a waste of time.

 

[TrickyDick]

Whatever sours you pick up, make sure to Google them and make sure they aren't pasteurized. Some sours (like your Rodenbach) are pasteurized and bottled with an ale strain so that would be a waste of time.

Good to know! I combined all the dregs into one and am going to prep some DME for it. Seems like Duchess is the only one that's got the Pedio/Lacto most likely.

I'm seriously thinking about just pitching these into a keg of IPA I brewed several months ago, and seeing what happens....

Hourglass. I've never been there. Its not too far of a drive. Need to plan a visit once they've got their sour program going. Thanks for the info!

TD

 

[allenH]

Good to know! I combined all the dregs into one and am going to prep some DME for it. Seems like Duchess is the only one that's got the Pedio/Lacto most likely.

I'm seriously thinking about just pitching these into a keg of IPA I brewed several months ago, and seeing what happens....

Hourglass. I've never been there. Its not too far of a drive. Need to plan a visit once they've got their sour program going. Thanks for the info!

TD

Hourglass is a tiny place (10 seats in the bar), the brewer is a pretty cool guy too. They do have bottles of Jolly Pumpkin, Cascade and a wide variety of other beers that might help your dreg collection for this project.

 

[TrickyDick]

By the way.


Wyeast Brett cultures have 75 BILLION viable cells

White labs have 2.5-4.0 BILLION cells.

That's per pack.

Wyeast has clearly much more cells

Info is direct from each lab.

 

[TrickyDick]

Ok so what I did was brew and chill then each half into 5 gal bucket. Pitched WLP 530 to one and roeselare blend to the other.
Gonna rack the WLP version this weekend to a better bottle, about 12 days after brewing. Been busy. It'll get Brett, two packs different strains I think I got Brett b & c. That I'll let go a month and then add the roeselare blend. Figure probably ok to rack the other half with the roeselare too. Never used before. Anything special to do?

Thanks..

Think ill use my stainless racking arm and then put into oven afterward to sanitize...

TD

 

[Weezy]

That's a lot of bugs to mix. You could consider spitting the beer into 1 gallon carboys, pitch different bugs in each? It'd a good learning experience to, as far as taste and speed to work for each type. Then blend to taste after you're satisfied with each.

You'll want to taste as you go, obviously. Go on ebay and search for 'pipettes'. they make great little thieves for carboys.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks for the tips.

I racked my split batch into two Better Bottles on Tuesday. Pitched Wyeast Brett B. and Wyeast Brett L. packs 1 ea. into the 5 gallons that had the WLP530 in it. The other bucket I just racked (primary ferm with Roeselare Blend). The Roeselare Blend smelled nice and sour! The WLP of course, not. I added 2.5 pounds of Zante "currants" to each and put an airlock on.

How long before I should switch to a solid bung? I'm thinking of letting the Brett work for a month and then pitch the Roeselare Blend into the WLP half.

Also, I have another question, about another batch of beer I'm thinking about doing another sour with. I'm planning to brew it the week of Christmas. I was thinking about brewing this beer (see below) and then running some more sparge water through to collect maybe 2 gallons of wort, then boiling down, possibly even the following day, and pitching into the bucket which had previously contained the half batch of the previous beer fermented with the Roeselare blend.

Not sure if I should wash, or just scoop up a cup or so of the yeast cake. It'll have been a good 14 days since I racked the beer off the yeast cake, but the bucket has remained sealed and unrinsed. There was a good .75-.9 gallons of beer/trub left in the bucket that I had no where to put.

Since I'd be using the second runnings from another batch of beer, Its a nothing ventured nothing gained situation. I don't want to over-sparge the grain, but heck, I'm only sparging about 5.6 gallons through 35 pounds of grain. that doesn't seem like much of a sparge to me...

I was also thinking about a bourbon soaked wood chip treatment for this other beer.

So what do you think?

here is the recipe...

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 12.37 gal
Post Boil Volume: 11.18 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 10.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 10.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.094 SG
Estimated Color: 47.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 79.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 81.9 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
27 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 77.1 %
3 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.6 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Chocolate (Dingemans) (340.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.3 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.3 %
1 lbs Caramel Malt - 120L (Briess) (120.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.9 %
1 lbs De-Bittered Black Malt (Dingemans) (550. Grain 6 2.9 %
3.00 oz Nugget [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 51.6 IBUs
4.00 oz Willamette [5.00 %] - Boil 25.0 min Hop 8 18.4 IBUs
1.31 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 9 -
5.50 oz Chocolate (Boil 15.0 mins) Flavor 10 -
3.25 oz cacao nibs (Boil 15.0 mins) Flavor 11 -
1.25 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 mins) Other 12 -
4.00 oz Willamette [5.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 13 9.6 IBUs
4.00 oz Coffee sumatran (Boil 0.0 mins) Other 14 -
4.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 15 -
0.53 oz Oak Chips (Secondary 16.0 weeks) Flavor 16 -
15.27 oz Jameson Irish Whiskey (Secondary 0.0 min Other 17 -
4.00 oz Coffee - kona (Secondary 0.0 mins) Other 18 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 35 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 44.51 qt of water at 169.0 F 155.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 2 min 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 5.63 gal water at 168.0 F

TD

 

[Weezy]

Thanks for the tips.

I racked my split batch into two Better Bottles on Tuesday. Pitched Wyeast Brett B. and Wyeast Brett L. packs 1 ea. into the 5 gallons that had the WLP530 in it. The other bucket I just racked (primary ferm with Roeselare Blend). The Roeselare Blend smelled nice and sour! The WLP of course, not. I added 2.5 pounds of Zante "currants" to each and put an airlock on.

How long before I should switch to a solid bung? I'm thinking of letting the Brett work for a month and then pitch the Roeselare Blend into the WLP half.

That's tough to say since you added new sugar (fruit) for the Brett. Personally, i just keep the airlocks on and add some starsan solution once every month or two.

Also, I have another question, about another batch of beer I'm thinking about doing another sour with. I'm planning to brew it the week of Christmas. I was thinking about brewing this beer (see below) and then running some more sparge water through to collect maybe 2 gallons of wort, then boiling down, possibly even the following day, and pitching into the bucket which had previously contained the half batch of the previous beer fermented with the Roeselare blend.

Not sure if I should wash, or just scoop up a cup or so of the yeast cake. It'll have been a good 14 days since I racked the beer off the yeast cake, but the bucket has remained sealed and unrinsed. There was a good .75-.9 gallons of beer/trub left in the bucket that I had no where to put.

I'd grab a generous scoop, wash it, and make a starter from the cleanest washed yeast. Sniffing the new starter will let you know if the yeast is happy & healthy.

So what do you think?

The base recipe looks like a well balanced recipe to me. Personally I wouldn't do the whiskey& chocolate & coffee; overly complex if you ask me. I imagine sitting down with a shot of Jameson, a Hershey bar, and a coffee chaser. meh.

Why so much whiskey??

 

[TrickyDick]

That's tough to say since you added new sugar (fruit) for the Brett. Personally, i just keep the airlocks on and add some starsan solution once every month or two.



I'd grab a generous scoop, wash it, and make a starter from the cleanest washed yeast. Sniffing the new starter will let you know if the yeast is happy & healthy.



The base recipe looks like a well balanced recipe to me. Personally I wouldn't do the whiskey& chocolate & coffee; overly complex if you ask me. I imagine sitting down with a shot of Jameson, a Hershey bar, and a coffee chaser. meh.

Why so much whiskey??

The recipe is a clone attempt at a commercial style that's 11.2% ABV, hence the Whisky. I think I may try and do some titration taste testing to see how much I should add. I ended up putting the whisky and oak chips into a mason jar. There is much more whisky in it than oak, and I have never brewed this type of beer before, so I figured that I'd prep enough oak so I could experiment when the time comes. Also that is a 10 gallon recipe.

Anyways, thanks for the encouragement.

I was thinking that I'd run some more sparge water through the mash and collect the "second runnings" and do a boil without any chocolate or coffee, or if so, maybe just a small amount, and then add that to the Roeselare slurry. Probably shoot for 8 -12 IBU of Styrian Goldings or maybe NOrthern Brewer hops. I'm on the fence about doing a washing and starter not out of laziness but out of concern of equipment contamination by the bugs in the Roeselare Blend.

For sure I'm looking forward to tasting the Sour brews of the Consecration ale clones. The Roeselare fermented half smells great. Next year's Christmas present should be all set!

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Related to this topic, I was cleaning out the primary buckets today. I am nervous about the bucket with the roeselare blend in it. It is sealed still and I didn't clean it out.

I think that I will possibly rinse it out in along the hedges by my driveway, away from where I brew, then disassemble everything from the stopcock (Yeah, I know, its really a combo bottling bucket/primary and I hate the stopcocks - leaky and impossible to sanitize). Then I am thinking about running it in my main dishwasher on sanitize mode.

What I am really concerned about cleaning in the basement brewery area, is accidentally splashing up some bugs into the environment and ending up with a problem on the non-sour beers.

I was going to mark the bucket and all other parts with red marker to identify it as being sour/funk contaminated.

Just curious what the rest of you are doing.

TD

 

[Calder]

Related to this topic, I was cleaning out the primary buckets today. I am nervous about the bucket with the roeselare blend in it. It is sealed still and I didn't clean it out.

I think that I will possibly rinse it out in along the hedges by my driveway, away from where I brew, then disassemble everything from the stopcock (Yeah, I know, its really a combo bottling bucket/primary and I hate the stopcocks - leaky and impossible to sanitize). Then I am thinking about running it in my main dishwasher on sanitize mode.

What I am really concerned about cleaning in the basement brewery area, is accidentally splashing up some bugs into the environment and ending up with a problem on the non-sour beers.

I was going to mark the bucket and all other parts with red marker to identify it as being sour/funk contaminated

You should be able to sanitize the equipment and it should be OK for use with other beers. However, I would use a permanent marker to identify which fermenter you use, just in-case. I have one I use for Brett primaries before moving to glass secondary and have marked that. I've not had a problem, but if I ever did, I would be able to identify the problem.

All hoses should be separate. I don't believe you can adequately sanitize then to eliminate 'bugs'

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks.

Brewed a KBS clone brew last weekend and split half the wort into a conventional fermentation and the other Half I pitched roeselare. Took a while to take off,but I unsuspecting my ferm freezer is overshooting the temp, well actually under shooting...

I have the bucket all marked up, stopper, airlocks, etc. so far I've only used one crappy piece of hardened vinyl for transfer that I just threw out, can the silicone tubing be sanitized adequately?? I might just get one piece of it dedicated for bugs.

Haven't made much progress on the wild brews book so far.

Friend of mine scored a couple sours for me while visiting family in Atlanta. Seems like they get a lot of stuff not available in FL (lost abbey for one, boulevard, and some others I researched. ).

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Fast - forward.

I think most of the beers I brewed since I started this post have been sour beers!

I bottled the first set of sours Weekend before this last. I got a 1BBL pitch ECY01 and brewed with a simple grist plus some flaked wheat added after mash out. Used half the pitch on a 14 gallon batch, then after primary split into three big mouth plastic fermenters, each with fifteen pound of different fruit. I used guava, blueberries, and rhubarb. Brewed this in May and was fully attenuated, nicely soured, and with some funk as well. Saved a half gallon of the base beer for later.

Have two carboys ready to bottle that i made a Flanders red and used the de Bomb seasonal yeast.

Two more carboys from the oud bruin seasonal yeast.

Two more from the consecration style clone that I was talking about in this thread. Interestingly, the one carboy I pitched the Roeselare from that start has better flavor than the one I follow the RR path for. Plus, the currants haven't dropped fully on that one. I ended up adding jolly pumpkin dregs to it a couple months ago.

I have anothe ten gallons of sour beer that I racked onto th spent fruit, which I combined into one beer.

I have also bottled a case worth of sour beer from a KBS clone I brewed. I decided to sour about half, but there was a crap-ton of sludge in the primary when I racked, maybe two gallons worth even. Might have been some of the chocolate solids?? Not sure.

Also have about 10 gallons each of a triple and a saison that I added Brett to. Both turned out really nice. I am impressed by how just tincture of time increased the Brett funk.

By my reckoning, I have several years worth of sour beer in my cellar now. I still need to bottle most of it though. I do despise bottling.

Once I get them all bottled, I think I may take a picture of all this sour goodness.

Thanks for the helpful tips.

TD

 

[MileHighBrewer]

That's a lot of bottling coming up! Congrats on all the success so far.

 

[TrickyDick]

Cracked open a sour beer I did in May with fruit (guava) tonight.

This is the very first sour beer I've tasted that I have brewed, but isn't the first one I've brewed.

It is still very young, and that is very much apparent to me. Cloudy. At bottling was much clearer. Flavors have changed dramatically since bottling. Previously was intensely guava aromatics and flavor to a lesser extent. The acidity and fruit flavors have diminished. Now it looks and tastes very much like a carbonated fresh squeezed grapefruit juice, but with a floral and slightly spicy guava-like aroma. It isn't fully carbonated for sure, though there is some carbonation developing. I used 1 oz corn sugar per gallon. I think I should've done more.
Also interestingly, the color has changed from a pinkish to a pale opaque yellowish color.

I gave a small taste to my father-in-law who doesn't generally like beer, but does enjoy wine and bourbon (like I do too). He actually liked his sample. He said it was interesting and drank the full 2oz pour I gave him.

I think I'll try another bottle after Many Many more months. Definitely needs time to clear, and mature, but I am liking what I am tasting so far. It is interesting how the flavor changes dramatically over time.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Tried the soured KBS clone about a month after bottling and was dead flat it seemed. Tried another a month later - last night, and was carbed up nicely! Awesome flavors going on in that one.

THe second carboy of the Consecration clone I did, I accidentally left the stopper off for a day and half after the tasting - two weeks later the remaining currant finally dropped! Coincidence? Going downstairs to taste it. I've been scrounging bottles everywhere I can and looking at 6 carboy nearing bottling time plus a ten gallon batch of another sour waiting to be racked into a cleaned out carboy. Bottling is a chore...... The Flanders Red I did with the De Bombe yeast strain out this summer started off like gangbusters, but seems it isn't as complex as the others yet. Its been 3-4 weeks since I last tasted it. Time for another sample of that one too.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Well,

just wanted to post a couple other questions/observations.

After my first year and a half of brewing sour beers, I've finally had a chance to taste a few results. I made about 70 gallons of intentional sour beer in the last 18 months, and another 11 gallons of unintentional sour beer. Respect the Brett folks!

I initially started to judiciously labels all stuff infected with funk, but over time I grew somewhat non-chalant. The latest infection I noticed as I was preparing some bottled for NHC. I had a nice decoction Dopplebock. Went from 1.101 to 1.025. I kegged it and drank some until I grew tired of a 10.1% beer on tap, and many inadvertent uncomfortable mornings ( I'll just have have a short pull of this before bed.... ) I bottled the rest from keg to bottle. I was planning to use for NHC as it is an impressive beer. Well, of the 18 remaining bottles, only 5 showed no pellicle in the bottle. I am tasting one of the infected ones tonight, and its still pretty tasty. I can tell that I need to get the bottles into a fridge soon to avoid bombs. Sort of an old ale meets DoppleBock with whispers and hints at some Brett action. The soft malt velvety-smoothness however is gone with a greater than style degree of carbonation now present.

Next up is the sour whisky infused oak aged imperial stout with oatmeal, chocolate and coffee (The KBS clone recipe) It is also an impressive beer that I want to enter into NHC, but which category? 23 seems the only choice. any suggestions?

TD