she said "it takes too long".........

[SmokeyMcBong]

things are done a certain way for a reason. once you understand what youre doing and why you do it that way, its great to cut corners and figure out a better way to do something. as long as those corners and efficiencies don't harm the final product.

I didn't tell you to punch a clock, but if you bring the girl to show her a fast way to brew all grain. you are doing her a disservice if you don't tell her that you spent an hour yesterday prepping for todays brewday. If you do it in 2.5 hours on the brew day but spent an hour the night before, she will think it takes 2.5 hours flat. Not the 3.5 hours it actually takes.

There is a difference between "it takes too many hours" and "it takes too many consecutive hours"

I don't understand where the hostility is coming from? I didn't say it was bad to brew fast or to prep ahead. All I said was to not lie to yourself and think that only the brew day time matters.

 

[MattyIce]

It does not sound like she likes to brew.

Tuesday, I staggered 2 all-grain five gallon batches. From firing the burner to end of cleanup was about 7 hours. It could have been 12, and I would have been happy. I enjoy the process as much as the consumption.

 

[augiedoggy]

A clerk at a LBHS when asked the other day if she was a home brewer replied "it takes too long" ............................. I know she loves home brew, but I also know that the people around her are brewing on complex systems....... 3 tuns, pumps, etc. She's been to a few brew days where guys haul out their equipment. Shiny stainless steel vessels connected to pumps and plumbing with fancy triclamp fittings, and enough valves to confuse even a firefighter!........ a 5-6 hour process including cleanup. She's also been involved in the BIAB process.... a bit faster at 4.5 hours including clean up. She doesn't have 5 hours to commit to brewing......... she has a LIFE!!

I explained that I had refined the process down to 2.5 hours start to finish (grain pre-crushed), and she couldn't believe it.........

I explained how I do an "inline mash", doughing in with hot tap water (130F), and rapidly raising the temp to 145, then very slowly to 155 over 20 minutes. How I can raise to boil from 155 in just 8 minutes using my kitchen stove and my floating 2500 watt heater (home built). How I boil for just 45 minutes at a hard boil instead of an hour or 90 minutes, and how I crash it to pitch temp in just 7 minutes using an immersion heater, a cold water bath, and ice filled tubes floating in the brew.............

She obviously didn't believe me, though she's tried my brews...... and her friends who brew told her I was full of s__t........ or so I assume. The result is that I have to "prove it"..... I refuse to have more than one other person in the kitchen while I brew... there just isn't the space, and I don't need 5 people underfoot. I'm not a "social brewer" like many folks here......... I'm really not a social anything.

Sometime in January I will have a brewing "partner" for one brew session..... She chooses the brew she wants to make and brings the ingredients......... she takes the fermenter home, and from that point on it's "her baby"..... She's too far away, I won't accept any "child support" responsibilities. A friend of hers will rack it into bottles and do the sugar thing. It isn't a date......... she's easily young enough to be my daughter (30 years difference).... so don't get the wrong idea. It may be the start of something beautiful...... someone's exploration into brewing.

Most folks don't brew the way I do........... I hope to communicate some of that idea to her as well......... I don't begin with a recipe, only with ingredients, and a sense of how they can be put together to make something interesting. I sit down in front of the computer and use Brewer's Friend to craft something from the grains and hops I have on hand. I may use two row or pilsner, any of a number of crystal malts, biscuit malts, roast barley, or chocolate malt. I may use some corn sugar or honey, wheat malt, rye malt, flaked corn, cooked rice, torrified wheat, etc. I have about 20 different hops in my freezer..... I'm gradually learning what works and what doesn't, what I like, and what I don't............... Hopefully I'll "show her a good time", launching her into the world of home brewing, and recruiting someone to "spread the word" that brewing can be inexpensive, easy, fun and NOT eat up all your spare time. It really can!!

H.W.

I used to brew on the stovetop with a cooler mashtun.... and now that I have this "complicated" electric system with all the valves and such it takes about 1 1/2hrs LESS to brew and cleanup... I could do the things you do with my system and brew a bit quicker I suppose since I find that with recirculating my conversion is usually done long before the 60 minutes I mash for and the plate chiller only takes 3 minutes to bring 5 gallons to pitching temps but for me the cool thing about my setup is I dont need to rush it... I can set any step with an alarm and when its time to boil I can set my temp controller to bring the boil kettle to 206 degrees and stop, setting off an alarm to tell me its ready for me to bring it the last couple degrees while watching to prevent the boilover...
I guess my point is for some the fancy setup not only makes the brewing process more enjoyable but allows us to do whatever we want around the house without babysitting so it doesnt really matter how long it takes...
I, like most people with "fancy setups" have a dedicated space for my setup and leave it setup and ready to go permanently so pulling things out and putting them away is also not an issue...

To each his own since we do not value the same things equally and have diffent priorities but I am very pleased with the system that I enjoyed building and using.

That said Its cool your trying to share your knowledge with others and it sounds like you may make a homebrewer out of someone who shares your view of getting it over with as quickly as possible.

 

[JohnSand]

I think this thread has become a little reactionary. I hope that everyone would agree that Owly is doing a good thing by trying to show someone how to brew. And how to brew in a way that fits her schedule. "She doesn't have five hours to brew". I don't think he was trying to criticize those who enjoy a longer brew day or use more equipment. He is probably justifiably proud of helping a new brewer, and having tailored his methods to meet his needs. I thought about the reaction here and realized that if someone were telling me to have a shorter sailing day, or a quicker visit with my brothers, I'd say they were nuts. But there are many approaches to brewing. I love to brew, but try to streamline my methods too. I wouldn't make instant beer, but I wouldn't do it if it took 8 hours. I'm glad when I can get it under 5, it would be cool for me to do it in 3. If I really wanted it faster, I'd use extract. Instead I enjoy using grain. And to those for whom brewing is your sailing, relish every minute.
Relax, don't argue, have a homebrew.

 

[Owly055]

things are done a certain way for a reason. once you understand what youre doing and why you do it that way, its great to cut corners and figure out a better way to do something. as long as those corners and efficiencies don't harm the final product.

I didn't tell you to punch a clock, but if you bring the girl to show her a fast way to brew all grain. you are doing her a disservice if you don't tell her that you spent an hour yesterday prepping for todays brewday. If you do it in 2.5 hours on the brew day but spent an hour the night before, she will think it takes 2.5 hours flat. Not the 3.5 hours it actually takes.

There is a difference between "it takes too many hours" and "it takes too many consecutive hours"

I don't understand where the hostility is coming from? I didn't say it was bad to brew fast or to prep ahead. All I said was to not lie to yourself and think that only the brew day time matters.

I have no idea where you come up with the absurd idea that I spend an hour prepping the day before........ The ONLY prep is crushing grains which takes about 10 minutes. Suddenly this 10 minutes seems to have grown to an hour in your mind??? That would make the brew day 2 hours and 40 minutes if I did it at the beginning. The reality is that if she does all grain brewing, she will have her grains crushed at the LHBS, so this is beyond nit picky!

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

I used to brew on the stovetop with a cooler mashtun.... and now that I have this "complicated" electric system with all the valves and such it takes about 1 1/2hrs LESS to brew and cleanup... I could do the things you do with my system and brew a bit quicker I suppose since I find that with recirculating my conversion is usually done long before the 60 minutes I mash for and the plate chiller only takes 3 minutes to bring 5 gallons to pitching temps but for me the cool thing about my setup is I dont need to rush it... I can set any step with an alarm and when its time to boil I can set my temp controller to bring the boil kettle to 206 degrees and stop, setting off an alarm to tell me its ready for me to bring it the last couple degrees while watching to prevent the boilover...
I guess my point is for some the fancy setup not only makes the brewing process more enjoyable but allows us to do whatever we want around the house without babysitting so it doesnt really matter how long it takes...
I, like most people with "fancy setups" have a dedicated space for my setup and leave it setup and ready to go permanently so pulling things out and putting them away is also not an issue...

To each his own since we do not value the same things equally and have diffent priorities but I am very pleased with the system that I enjoyed building and using.

That said Its cool your trying to share your knowledge with others and it sounds like you may make a homebrewer out of someone who shares your view of getting it over with as quickly as possible.

Thanks for that..............
I am working toward a more efficient system myself. My current project is designing and building an in-bag circulation system which will move my system toward a semi automated system where I can set things up on a timer before bed, much like people do with coffee pots. It will kick on at a specified time, and heat and circulate by itself so I wake up on brew day with only draining the bag and doing the boil ahead of me. At that point, I won't care if the mash takes 20 minutes or 2 hours.

I am by no means opposed to fancy automated recirculating systems....... I'm obviously headed that way. For new brewers simple is best, and reducing the time, investment, and complexity are key to getting them involved and interested. The simple fact is that if she can't find the time, or justify the investment, or deal with the complexity, she'll never get started. With the guys she works with who do 3 Tun systems and talk about decoction mashing and fly sparging, in all probability she would never get started. I do 2.5 gallon brews.......which is perfect for her. It doesn't take big equipment and heavy lifting, and can be done right in the kitchen with equipment she mostly already has.

I wonder how many people are simply scared off from brewing after seeing complex expensive systems and processes, never realizing how easy it really is??


H.W.

 

[Calder]

I was under the assumption you were doing a 5 gallon batch. I suspect many others were under the same impression. I think this is the first time you have mentioned batch size in this thread.

Now the 2.5 hours makes sense.

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

I was under the assumption you were doing a 5 gallon batch. I suspect many others were under the same impression. I think this is the first time you have mentioned batch size in this thread.

Now the 2.5 hours makes sense.

yup, half the beer in half the time lol.

I just don't condone teaching someone short cuts who doesn't know what the task properly involves. You just shouldn't teach improper techniques (drinking hot water tank water, short boil, short mash, etc).

The problem is that YOU know what short cut you are taking and why you are taking it and what it effects in the brew day. When you look at your short mash and see it clear out, you know its converting. If it doesn't clear out, I assume you'd leave it longer till it did. This is because you know your short mash is short, she will think that this is the length of time to mash and not know to go longer if something is not right.

If you end up with a beer that tastes like creamed corn because of your short boil, again YOU will know why it tastes like corn and know you may not have boiled long enough. She will not know why and assume that you did something that you didn't show her, or she did something wrong (which technically she did).

I don't even wanna start on what I think about drinking water from a hot water tank.

We should teach best practices to people who want to learn. This sets up for success. We should not teach sketchy practices to people who do not want to learn or do not have interest.

And as for the hour the day before, I was being general about the people who brag about their speed brewing but don't count the day before. You may not be one of them but you also might be but just don't wanna say it here. I'm gonna go ahead and stand by the comments I've made.

 

[augiedoggy]

I dont really want my comments to seem negative so I'm just trying to keep it to the facts as I know them. I understand why the OP posted this thread and I get where hes coming from.
I have replaced a few hot water tanks.... as others are implying the water is full of heavy metals such as iron and theres actually a lot of silt and sand in there with the rust which builds up over time....
I have switched to a tankless system myself with prefilters but even that has a warning that the water from it is not potable... lead solder or some other reasons I'm not aware of perhaps?

In any case I agree its not a good idea for drinking let alone making beer...Water quality i something I recently realised has a larger effect on my beer than I originally believed.
I just purchased a couple $8 water meters.... one is a ph meter and the other is a TDS (total disolved solids) and I learned a few things... first off the water that come out of my RO water system really does have hardly any dissolved minerals and other solids in it (I dont usually use this for brewing since my reef tank takes 3 gallons from the tank every day) and my ph is very high out of my bathroom faucet... I now fill my hlt the night before brewing and let the chemicals dissipate ... I find my ph and TDS readings seem to drop a bit too... I use the 5.2 ph buffer but even using that as recommended only brings my fresh tap water down to about 6.2 vs 5.2 when actually measured...

 

[z-bob]

Have you measured the TDS of the water from a water heater tank and compared it to the cold water? I'm not arguing with you, I'm genuinely curious about this and you have a meter.

It is intuitively obvious from all the junk in the bottom of the tank that the hot water has more dissolved crap, but I suspect it actually has less -- all that stuff precipitated out because it is less soluble in hot water. Kind of like boiling water to decarbonate it. I would be a little concerned about higher magnesium from the sacrificial anode.

 

[harry_the_face]

yup, half the beer in half the time lol.

I just don't condone teaching someone short cuts who doesn't know what the task properly involves. You just shouldn't teach improper techniques (drinking hot water tank water, short boil, short mash, etc).

The problem is that YOU know what short cut you are taking and why you are taking it and what it effects in the brew day. When you look at your short mash and see it clear out, you know its converting. If it doesn't clear out, I assume you'd leave it longer till it did. This is because you know your short mash is short, she will think that this is the length of time to mash and not know to go longer if something is not right.

If you end up with a beer that tastes like creamed corn because of your short boil, again YOU will know why it tastes like corn and know you may not have boiled long enough. She will not know why and assume that you did something that you didn't show her, or she did something wrong (which technically she did).

I don't even wanna start on what I think about drinking water from a hot water tank.

We should teach best practices to people who want to learn. This sets up for success. We should not teach sketchy practices to people who do not want to learn or do not have interest.

And as for the hour the day before, I was being general about the people who brag about their speed brewing but don't count the day before. You may not be one of them but you also might be but just don't wanna say it here. I'm gonna go ahead and stand by the comments I've made.

I totally disagree! There is no reason that a new brewery needs to be a brewing geek right out the gate. I started brewing 3 years ago by watching a guy once and a week later brewing my first all grain batch with no one by my side. I made 5-7 good batches before I had a bad one. I have learned the importance of different parts of the process and how it effects my beer since then and I continue to dive deeper as my understanding and knowledge grow. I still do no adjust my water, and have always used "water heater" water with great success.
I understand that you want to know every aspect of brewing but know that there are many (I would guess most) brewers out there that just follow a simple recipe/process and enjoy the results.
Smokey if I had learned brewing from you I think I would have given up thinking it was much to complicate.

 

[harry_the_face]

Smaller batches would greatly reduce the brew day because it takes much less time to heat/boil smaller volumes. I am interested to hear what kind of burner you are using and if you know the BTU.
Are you planning to have the grain already in the water for your "auto start" system?

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

Smokey if I had learned brewing from you I think I would have given up thinking it was much to complicate.

maybe you would have been better off. Anything worth doing should be worth doing right, no matter how hard it is to do....

 

[Owly055]

Smaller batches would greatly reduce the brew day because it takes much less time to heat/boil smaller volumes. I am interested to hear what kind of burner you are using and if you know the BTU.
Are you planning to have the grain already in the water for your "auto start" system?

It takes 8 minutes to heat a 2.5 gallon brew from 160 to 212 or whatever boiling is here. It takes 7 minutes to chill to pitch temp from boiling. Thus if I were to double batch size, it would double those times. It would also double the time from dough in to 145. Those times if added up might increase total brew time by half an hour.......... That's still a huge improvement over conventional methods.

Clearly it is more efficient to brew 5 gallon brews......... twice as much beer for 30% more time. Higher BTU equipment will of course reduce that time, as would a more efficient chiller..... back down to the original 2.5 hours or so.

For me and for many others out there, 5 gallons is too much to handle, and represents a large jump in equipment investment, as well as the necessity of designating a specific brewing space. No doubt there are those who brew 5 gallons on the kitchen stove..... something that I personally regard as impractical. A 2.5 gallon brew is easy to handle, and can utilize containers we often already have. My first brews for example used a blue enamel hot water bath canner I had already, and I still use a colander I already had. You can begin by chilling your brew in the bathtub......... I started with a snowbank. I have no ported containers, and my current brew vessel is a large stainless steel stockpot with a laminated base ($60 from Walmart). I previously used a smaller one $11, that would not quite handle all my grain and strike water, so I had to sparge. The bag of course was cheap. My fermenters are an acrylic 3 gallon ice tea container from Walmart, modified to accept a fermentation lock. I fill my expensive flip top bottles using a piece of plastic tubing and a funnel, filling directly from the spigot, and I do it right in the kitchen sink. A perfect fill each time.

I personally have no interest in "upgrading" to 5 gallons........ I LIKE brewing once a week. A perfect fit for me....... I like to experiment and vary my recipes, and rarely make the exact same thing twice. Enough for me to drink and to share with a few friends from time to time.


My burner is the gas burner on my ancient kitchen stove (propane), and I've cranked it up to about double it's intended output...... it has an adjustable orifice. I also use a 2500 watt floating heater I designed which I wrote a few posts about, and took some photos of and links to the element. It runs on 220 / 240 vac and works very well..... almost too well. I've had a number of situations where the wort boiled over into the pan that acts as the float because I wasn't paying attention...... it takes me from mashout to boil so fast you can't take your eye off it for very long.

The auto start system I am designing will begin with the grain in the water.......no reason I can see not to let it soak over night. The circulator will pull water (and grain) from near the surface, and push it down to the bottom of the kettle........ all inside the bag using an impeller inside a 3" diameter tube. I plan on using 3" stainless steel exhaust pipe. The motor will be above the pot, and will be a variable speed motor. I'm debating about using a cheap electric mixer head for the motor, as opposed to a motor designed for in Inland flat lap (a lapidary machine). The idea is that the downward flow in the center of the kettle will push the mash down in the center, creating an outward and upward circulation like the flux lines of a magnet. The mount for thermocouple that is used to provide information for the STC1000 will be on the tube. The works will sit inside the brew bag.

H.W.

 

[The_Bishop]

Be careful with that exhaust pipe. Most stainless steel exhaust pipe isn't the grade you'd want in contact with food/beverages.

 

[Owly055]

maybe you would have been better off. Anything worth doing should be worth doing right, no matter how hard it is to do....

Your exclusive mindset is not productive...... "my way or the highway". Anybody who isn't doing a conventional mash and sparge operation with 5 gallons or more isn't a real brewer is the message you are communicating. I'm hearing that a 45 minute mash will produce crappy beer........... I'm here to tell you that this isn't true.

Compared to your presumably hundreds of batches, I've only brewed 43, and will be on 44 in a couple of days. I'm obviously a newbie compared to you. I've mashed from 10 minutes to 90 minutes...... what time ranges have you tried? I've also boiled from 30 minutes to 90 minutes........... Presumably you also have experimented to all the extremes, so your comments are based on direct personal experience rather than "he said / she said / they say"...............

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'm assuming the above to be true........ is it? If so, they why do I get good results by NOT doing it your way? The friends I share with are not unsophisticated rednecks, they are people who buy microbrews, NOT BMC, nor do they turn down my brews politely.

I also do not share your concern about hot tap water....... I have read about this elsewhere since the issue came up, and my BS filter has discovered numerous repetitions of the same statements not backed up by anything other than repeated statements. I'm not sure how many times a truism must be repeated for it to become enshrined as truth. Perhaps the earth truly is flat, and perhaps Gabriel will soon be standing on the mountain tops blowing his golden trumpet........ I reserve the right to decide for myself.

You've had your say........... and I appreciate your input. I have no intention of telling you how you should brew, but from you, I'm getting the exact opposite.... My way obviously is not your way, but that doesn't make either way wrong....... the proof is in the pudding. In my short brewing career of only 43 brews, I've pushed the limits, and experimented more than most folks ever will. I've tried things that didn't work well, and things that did. I even built a mash tun from a cooler, but abandoned it for my faster simpler methodology because the results were good.....that after all is what we are looking for.

H.W.

 

[The_Bishop]

While it's always great to see someone try new things and push the envelope, there *are* reasons that some things are done certain ways.

You might like your beer with a short mash and boil, but have you ever had it analyzed by a certified judge? You may not notice anything off, but a different palate might discern things that you aren't noticing.

You might also get away with your regimen on a smaller brew. It may not work as well on a larger volume of mash and wort. For you to stand on a soapbox and proclaim that '60 minute mashes are bull****!' comes across as telling people how they should brew, which is something you claim you have no intention of doing. I also question the wisdom of teaching someone a 'shortcut' way to brew; when the shortcuts fail and they become discouraged a potential homebrewer is lost.

There's a reason mashes take time. It has to do with gelatinization of the starches so the enzymes can work on them, and the time each enzyme needs to work on it's particular sugar chain. You can get around *some* of the gelatinization time by milling very fine, but not everyone does BIAB and the possibility of stuck sparges becomes an issue. Enzymes still need time to do their thing, as well. Once you start adding in adjuncts like flaked corn, rice or barley more time is needed to convert and extract.

I started out BIAB. I later changed to a two vessel system with a conventional mash. Biggest reason? It's easier to control water chemistry and mash PH. The trub in BIAB is something else I didn't care for, and I was using a voile bag.

I didn't go chasing efficiency, I went chasing after better beer. I'm not out here proclaiming that my 2 vessel system is the ultimate brew system; it works for me. Other people have different systems that work for them. The destination is the beer; how you get there is up to each brewer. Your short mash/boil thing may work for you, and you're happy with your beer so drink up. But don't make the mistake of thinking you've invented a new wheel; there *is* a reason brewing has taken the form it has... Because it works and the science of brewing supports it. If everyone could do a 15 minute mash and get terrific beer out of it I'm sure people would have been doing it by now.

Also, it just seems that every post you make is about how awesome your 15 minute mashes are. Gets old, you know?

 

[z-bob]

maybe you would have been better off. Anything worth doing should be worth doing right, no matter how hard it is to do....

Worth doing well. "Doing right" leaves no room for innovation.

BTW, I think both sides are making valid points here. (so now you can all throw tomatoes at me)

 

[Devin]

Mine does. Let's not kid ourselves, they really don't like it that much.

Nope - the secret is just don't last too long.

"Just hang on darlin'. This will only take a sec.....you won't feel a thing."

 

[Natdavis777]

I decided to do an impromtu brew today. I was on my way to the gym, and the LHBS is next to it, so I dropped in and picked up some grains for a 5gal. Had to go to the store for some champagne, so I picked up my water whilst there. Started @ 2:30 and 3.5hrs later Im getting ready to start the cooling the beer. Thats with a 1.5hr mash. MLT is cleaned and most of the stuff is already put away. Should be done by 6:45. I call that a pretty fast brew day.