Seeking advise on high % Rye malt mash

[brewboy73]

HI All
Does anyone have experience brewing with extremely high amounts of rye, whether malted or flaked? I also distill and am looking to do a 90% rye with 10% Barley mash to produce a rye wash for whiskey. My concern is not being able to properly "cook" the rye malt as you would in a cereal cooker to get decent gelatinization. I know that i can do a beta glucan rest and move up to a protein rest before the sacch rest, but not sure is this will keep me from having the first runnings be as thick as motor oil. I just got in Visco Bustser from White Labs which is used to help with the beta glucans, but dont have any previous experience with it. They told me to triple the recommended dosage at the levels of rye that i want to use. Thoughts?

Sean

 

[dmtaylor]

I've brewed many beers of 40-70% rye malt. It is more thick and gooey than you can possibly imagine. The best thing to do is to add 1-2 pounds of rice hulls per 5 gallons. And even then you can still get a stuck runoff.

 

[BigEd]

HI All
Does anyone have experience brewing with extremely high amounts of rye, whether malted or flaked? I also distill and am looking to do a 90% rye with 10% Barley mash to produce a rye wash for whiskey. My concern is not being able to properly "cook" the rye malt as you would in a cereal cooker to get decent gelatinization. I know that i can do a beta glucan rest and move up to a protein rest before the sacch rest, but not sure is this will keep me from having the first runnings be as thick as motor oil. I just got in Visco Bustser from White Labs which is used to help with the beta glucans, but dont have any previous experience with it. They told me to triple the recommended dosage at the levels of rye that i want to use. Thoughts?

Sean

Malted grain does not need to be gelatinized. Only flaked or raw grain would require that process. 90% rye, why? Legally, for a commercial product, rye whiskey only needs to be 51% rye or above. Most rye, commercial or not, does have more than 51% rye content but nothing in the 90% range. I like about 60% in mine with the rest split between corn and malted barley. If you're doing this as a science experiment or just want to push the envelope then have at it but I would follow Dave's advice of using plenty of rice hulls in the mash.

Sorry can't help on the Visco Buster as I have no experience with that product. Understand that rye has a bold character and even at a level well below 90% it will lend a great deal of flavor and input.

 

[brewboy73]

Malted grain does not need to be gelatinized. Only flaked or raw grain would require that process. 90% rye, why? Legally, for a commercial product, rye whiskey only needs to be 51% rye or above. Most rye, commercial or not, does have more than 51% rye content but nothing in the 90% range. I like about 60% in mine with the rest split between corn and malted barley. If you're doing this as a science experiment or just want to push the envelope then have at it but I would follow Dave's advice of using plenty of rice hulls in the mash.

Sorry can't help on the Visco Buster as I have no experience with that product. Understand that rye has a bold character and even at a level well below 90% it will lend a great deal of flavor and input.

I'm definitely looking for a very strong rye character in this wash. Due to viscosity issue with rye at high percentages, I'm also worried about boiler puke going into the column. I'll probably test mash a lb of rye first and see how the Visco Buster works. I wish I had a jacketed boiler. Then I could ferment and distill right on the grain. Thanks for the info

 

[DBhomebrew]

MGP (read: quite a few major labels) is well known for their 95% rye whiskey.

 

[hottpeper13]

I have done the 104* to 122* to 143* to 158* step mash with a 36% rye grist in a BIAB and it would't drain ,even when squeezing.
You mentioned not wanting to do a cereal mash but that is my next procedure, as this helps with my 50% wheat beers.

 

[Steveruch]

I've brewed many beers of 40-70% rye malt. It is more thick and gooey than you can possibly imagine. The best thing to do is to add 1-2 pounds of rice hulls per 5 gallons. And even then you can still get a stuck runoff.

Would BIAB be an alternative?

 

[dmtaylor]

Would BIAB be an alternative?

Well, I brew in a bag (BIAB) and I still use rice hulls or else it's just a gooey mess. It won't squeeze out properly.

 

[Beerstein]

God, grant me the serenity to accept the mash bill I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know when to use enzymes.


I like enzymes. Use enzymes!

 

[MaxStout]

I did one Roggenbier BIAB, about 60% rye. It was sticky, but manageable. If you have the volume available to use a higher water/grain ratio, that helps, maybe 2 qts/lb or so.

 

[Protos]

I believe, with BIAB one can make a 100% rye beer with no hulls or enzymes needed. It depends of the bag's mesh size and mashing regimen, I think.
I did 75% BIAB rye Roggenbocks having no problems at all. Mashed in at 35C in a bag I made of a larger sized mesh (like 1.5mm) specifically for largely-non-barley grists, slowly heated to 55C in the course of an hour, then standard maltose and saccharification rests, and voila: totally (albeit slower) spargable bag and a nice beer, heavy and slick, if you like it.

And yes, higher water to grain ratio too.

 

[AlexKay]

Just (as in just now) mashed BIAB for a 56% rye roggenbock. Single infusion, squeezed the bag, no problem. 0.1 gallons of water per 1 pound of grain, pretty much same as always.

 

[brewboy73]

I have done the 104* to 122* to 143* to 158* step mash with a 36% rye grist in a BIAB and it would't drain ,even when squeezing.
You mentioned not wanting to do a cereal mash but that is my next procedure, as this helps with my 50% wheat beers.

So even doing the beta glucan rest, your mash schedule still did not help with the thick viscosity? Did you happen to use any enzymes?

 

[brewboy73]

God, grant me the serenity to accept the mash bill I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know when to use enzymes.


I like enzymes. Use enzymes!

Which enzymes are you using?

 

[hottpeper13]

Haven't tried enzymes yet,going to do a cereal mash first.

 

[madscientist451]

\ I also distill and am looking to do a 90% rye with 10% Barley mash to produce a rye wash for whiskey. My concern is not being able to properly "cook" the rye malt as you would in a cereal cooker to get decent gelatinization.

Sean

Using Malted or un-malted rye?
I've never distilled anything, but I have made a 100% rye beer using BIAB and malted rye. Yeah its a sticky mess and you don't get all the water from the grain bag.

 

[Drewch]

Haven't tried enzymes yet,going to do a cereal mash first.

Wouldn't a cereal mash just denature the enzymes in the rye malt and prevent it from converting?

 

[z-bob]

I did a rather strong beer (7.2%) using 52% rye malt. No rice hulls. I did a protein rest first (122°F), then stepped it up to 150° for an hour. It was a sticky mess but it did drain. I had to squeeze the bag more than usual. I did not do a beta-glucan rest because I read somewhere that rye malt does not have glucanase.

 

[hottpeper13]

A cereal mash gets the sacrification rests at 143* for 30 min then 158* for 30 min then boiled. If the grain you're using has a gelatinazation temp above this(rice 185*) you have to cool it down before adding the barley malt.

 

[brewboy73]

I did a test mash with just 3/4 lb of malted rye this weekend. Upped the water to 1.25 quarts. Went in at 110f for 15 minutes and went to 122f for 20 minutes. I then added the Visco Buster and brought to 155f for 45 minutes then added amylase. Visco Buster worked very well. Mash was still a little thick but much easier to handle then without it.

Sean

 

[JAReeves]

I am drinking a Rye IPA now, which was basically Maris Otter and Raw Rye whole grains a neighbor (he's a baker) gave me (5-10% Raw Rye in malt bill). I didn't gelatinize the rye, just ground it into the rest of the malt. It has a fantastic flavor, but is cloudy-hazy in ways that would put haze-crazers to shame. I am actually thinking of adding gelatin to fine out some of the haze, but I really like the spicy rye flavor.

I am doing a Red Rye this weekend, so this time, I took 1# of the raw rye, brought it up to a boil, and then simmered it the way that I make rice. Except that I simmered it for two hours to break as much of it down as possible. I then let it cool overnight to absorb the remaining water, and then froze it. I am hoping that when this is added to the mash, it adds the flavor without adding as much of the haze. It's over 10% of the malt bill in the Red Rye.

 

[brewboy73]

Hi All
Over the weekend, I received a new stainless steel mash tun that I took for a test drive. I make another rye wash for whiskey and used 70% rye. I used a blend of rye malt and flaked rye and then 30% pale ale malt. Did a beta gluc rest, protein rest and sacch rest while using the Visco Buster. I didnt have to use any rice hulls. Lautered very well and wasnt extremely thick. I highly recommend the visco buster if you're doing high % of rye. I got it directly from White Labs.