Secondary In Plastic Conical

[schmahly]

Hello all!

So I am planning on embarking the plastic conical route because well I don't have almost a grand and why not? right?

Everything seems a go for me; however, has anyone at all that owns one of those plastic conicals, like to roto mold (MDPE), did a secondary in them?

I understand they are porous and eventually will cause oxidation but for a two week seconday?

Any experience on this matter?

 

[kh54s10]

The purpose of a conical is that you don't really do a secondary. Instead you dump the trub after fermentation ends. I personally think the permeability of plastic containers is way overblown. I have done wines and beers that stayed in plastic carboys for about 3-4 months without issue. They were PET though. A couple of weeks would not be a problem. Thousands or more routinely ferment in HDPE buckets with leaky lids without problem.

 

[IslandLizard]

What's your purpose of doing a secondary? For long term aging or just to get the beer off the yeast after a few weeks?

Excessive headspace, and non-tight fitting lid closures are probably the main issues with using those plastic roto-mould vessels.
How big are your batches?

 

[schmahly]

The purpose of a conical is that you don't really do a secondary. Instead you dump the trub after fermentation ends. I personally think the permeability of plastic containers is way overblown. I have done wines and beers that stayed in plastic carboys for about 3-4 months without issue. They were PET though. A couple of weeks would not be a problem. Thousands or more routinely ferment in HDPE buckets with leaky lids without problem.

Thank you! Now, just need to figure out how to seal that lid so I can transfer with co2.

 

[schmahly]

What's your purpose of doing a secondary? For long term aging or just to get the beer off the yeast after a few weeks?

Excessive headspace, and non-tight fitting lid closures are probably the main issues with using those plastic roto-mould vessels.
How big are your batches?

My batches are typically 10 gallon. Sometimes 15. I want to use it to dry hop after primary fermentation has completed. However, with proper cooling abilities I would like to be able to lager in it.

 

[IslandLizard]

My batches are typically 10 gallon. Sometimes 15. I want to use it to dry hop after primary fermentation has completed. However, with proper cooling abilities I would like to be able to lager in it.

The ones from NZ, you referred to in your other thread, are basically plastic conicals with a 60° cone. You can drop the trub and yeast from those, while filling the headspace with CO2.

I don't use secondaries for dry hopping, they go loose into the bucket, under a (gentle) counterflow of CO2 or I flush the headspace afterward. For most beers I don't see a need for secondaries, it's in the primary vessel all the way then into the keg.
If I need to age or lager, I do it in kegs. Mostly 5 and occasional 10 gallon batches here.

 

[schmahly]

The ones from NZ, you referred to in your other thread, are basically plastic conicals with a 60° cone. You can drop the trub and yeast from those, while filling the headspace with CO2.

I don't use secondaries for dry hopping, they go loose into the bucket, under a (gentle) counterflow of CO2 or I flush the headspace afterward. For most beers I don't see a need for secondaries, it's in the primary vessel all the way then into the keg.
If I need to age or lager, I do it in kegs. Mostly 5 and occasional 10 gallon batches here.

Thanks for your input! Definitely answers my question. Happy new year!

 

[Tagobolts]

In the past I have always done a secondary fermentation cause, that’s how I was taught. Been a while and getting back in. Looking to get a brew bucket. How soon should you get it to a secondary or is it ok to leave primary and secondary in this for 2 weeks?

 

[IslandLizard]

In the past I have always done a secondary fermentation cause, that’s how I was taught. Been a while and getting back in. Looking to get a brew bucket. How soon should you get it to a secondary or is it ok to leave primary and secondary in this for 2 weeks?

Secondaries are old hat, they can cause more problems than they solve, infections, oxidation, etc.

If you're not doing a secondary fermentation what's the need for a secondary? Yeast will not autolyze in the 2-3 weeks in the primary vessel, it can actually remain in there for 8 weeks without problems. If it needs to be bulk aged/conditioned for more than 8-12 weeks, yup, use a secondary. Even when adding fruit or dry hops, a secondary is not needed.

 

[schmahly]

Secondaries are old hat, they can cause more problems than they solve, infections, oxidation, etc.

If you're not doing a secondary fermentation what's the need for a secondary? Yeast will not autolyze in the 2-3 weeks in the primary vessel, it can actually remain in there for 8 weeks without problems. If it needs to be bulk aged/conditioned for more than 8-12 weeks, yup, use a secondary. Even when adding fruit or dry hops, a secondary is not needed.

I do agree. Secondary fermentations is an old hat. Sometimes I think the word fermentation needs to drop. Not trying to veer of the track of the post but secondary is more for obtaining the flavors of other sugars without the yeast fermenting it. Does it make a difference? Who the hell knows. But there may be some truth for fruit in secondary without so much yeast present.

Besides that, oxidation is the main culprit here with a plastic conical. Let's say I'd like to keep my beer longer than 3 weeks in the plastic conical that you can buy at these websites, like smart spray or roto mold. Will the beer come out like a Corona? Oxidized and skunked?

Maybe this would be a good experiment for anyone that already has a few of these conicals to do a side by side.

 

[IslandLizard]

Besides that, oxidation is the main culprit here with a plastic conical.

I'm not so sure about that, HDPE or even LDPE plastic are not that O2 permeable that a 3-6 weeks aging/condition will oxidize the beer. As long as there's an airlock on it and the lid seals well so the headspace remains filled with CO2. Apparently, PET is among the most O2 tight plastics out there, so that would be an alternative.

Again, kegs make great fermenters and secondaries and aging vessels.

 

[kh54s10]

I can attest that 9+ months on the trub in a PET fermenter will not cause enough autolysis or oxidation to ruin a beer. (life getting in the way of brewing) At the end I did a dry hop because all the hop flavor and aroma had disappeared. That beer was not great, but it was not bad either.

 

[mashpaddled]

The problem with the conical vessels you suggest is not that it is plastic but that they are not designed to be air tight. The lids are usually a point of air ingress around the seal. FWIW even the plastic conicals designed and sold for homebrewing (at least the ones I've seen) do not have great seals at the lid. They might be fine for primary fermentation because offgassing of CO2 displaces incoming air but I would not personally trust them for much aging after that.

 

[Tagobolts]

The problem with the conical vessels you suggest is not that it is plastic but that they are not designed to be air tight. The lids are usually a point of air ingress around the seal. FWIW even the plastic conicals designed and sold for homebrewing (at least the ones I've seen) do not have great seals at the lid. They might be fine for primary fermentation because offgassing of CO2 displaces incoming air but I would not personally trust them for much aging after that.

What about SS vessels? At first was looking at a comical but now leaning toward the brew bucket if I can go in it for 2 weeks then to keg

 

[RM-MN]

The intended point to secondary is mostly to let more trub settle so you get clearer beer. It usually doesn't work out that way but that is the intention. The point to using a conical is that the trub will settle into the bottom collection vessel so it can be dumped, also with the intent of getting clearer beer. That often doesn't work any better than leaving the beer on the trub. There should be no reason to transfer your beer from the conical until bottling/kegging time.