Scotch Ale Brewing Question

[BGHSmt7]

Unfortunately that stuff about fermenting at 50º F is total bollocks. The lowest pitching temperature I've seen was 54º F, but that quickly rose to well over 60º F. Most of the fermentation for Scottish beers took place between 65º F and 70º F.

It's best to ignore pretty much everything ever written about Scottish beer. Almost none of it is true: long slow fermentations, mininal hopping, roast barley for colour - all complete crap.

Thank you for this. If you don't mind, I'd like a couple citations/sources from where you get your information so that I can improve my brewing process for a style of beer that I love and is familial (I'm Scottish).

 

[patto1ro]

Thank you for this. If you don't mind, I'd like a couple citations/sources from where you get your information so that I can improve my brewing process for a style of beer that I love and is familial (I'm Scottish).

My information comes mostly from the brewing records held at the Scottish Brewing Archive in Glasgow. They've an amazing collection of them. As most Scottish brewers noted down full fermentation records, it's easy to see what temperature they fermented at.

This is a page from William Younger's 1847 brewing book. You can see that the beers were pitched at 56-58º F, rising to 71-72º F at the end of primary.

 

[patto1ro]

Thank you for this. If you don't mind, I'd like a couple citations/sources from where you get your information so that I can improve my brewing process for a style of beer that I love and is familial (I'm Scottish).

I see you're based in Chicago. I should be giving a talk about Scottish beer somewhere in the suburbs Monday 1st May.

 

[BGHSmt7]

I see you're based in Chicago. I should be giving a talk about Scottish beer somewhere in the suburbs Monday 1st May.

Too bad I'm working 9-7 that day. I'd love to be there.

I've seen similar pagees in Noonan's book. Which is why I pitched my Wee Heavy around 50-54 and let it rise, but caught it before it went completely outta control. Thanks!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You can buy it here:

https://www.hopandgrape.co.uk/brupaks-brewers-caramel.html

Thank you! I'll need to look around and see if I can find this in the US. Would caramel malt be a viable alternative?

 

[patto1ro]

Thank you! I'll need to look around and see if I can find this in the US. Would caramel malt be a viable alternative?

Not really. You'd have to use quite a lot of it and it would change the flavour.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Not really. You'd have to use quite a lot of it and it would change the flavour.

I'm shooting blanks with my web search effort. Would any of these fall into the same ballpark?

http://www.candisyrup.com/

 

[patto1ro]

I'm shooting blanks with my web search effort. Would any of these fall into the same ballpark?

http://www.candisyrup.com/

The darkest one might get you some where close, but you'll need to use a lot more than you would with caramel.

 

[brewcat]

Unfortunately that stuff about fermenting at 50º F is total bollocks. The lowest pitching temperature I've seen was 54º F, but that quickly rose to well over 60º F. Most of the fermentation for Scottish beers took place between 65º F and 70º F.

It's best to ignore pretty much everything ever written about Scottish beer. Almost none of it is true: long slow fermentations, mininal hopping, roast barley for colour - all complete crap.

In Noonan's Scotch Ale it is mentioned that pitching temps seemed to be around 50 in the early 1800s. But even then it goes on to say pitching temps had risen by the mid 1800s to 55. And fermentations would climb to 62-65. 62 for anything higher than OG 1.090 Which he gathered from the Scottish Brewing Archives.

It is kind of baffling some of the misinformation when the information has been out there.

 

[premington]

To the OP: While not "optimal" I've brewed a lot of batches with a single smack pack and no starter. If it were me I'd go with that and not mix yeasts. It's difficult to reproduce the character of a beer using two yeasts up front. The relative energy level of each is unpredictable from a smack pack. If you had two strong starters and wanted to experiment, that would be more controllable. That single smack pack will do just fine in a well-aerated/oxygenated wort. Keep it simple (and reproducible).

As far as caramelization goes: The Scotts may not do it, but a Scotch Ale is heavy on malt character and to reproduce this with extract, this may not be a bad way to go. It will definitely help impart a maltier flavor profile.

You can get yourself all wrapped up in right, wrong, and experimentation. Pick a line and drive it. Taste it when you are done and see what you like about it and what you do not. Optionally, enter it into a local competition to get some more feedback from (hopefully) experienced judges. Lather, rinse, tweak, repeat.

Good luck and welcome to the club!

Thanks for this post, Lee.

I think I'll take your advice and stick with the 1728 I have now. I'll head to the brewing store in a little bit and see if they have more. If they don't, then I'll but what I need to get a starter going and spin what I can between now and late tomorrow afternoon. It'll only have about 20 hours, but I assume what I'll get will be more than what I'd yield from a conventional smack pack. I'll pitch it and we'll see what happens.

If they have more 1728, is there harm in pitching three smack packs, or should I just do two (two more would give me three total for a 5 gallon batch)? Any opinions? I'm not sure if there's any disadvantage to over yeasting a wort.

-Paul

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The darkest one might get you some where close, but you'll need to use a lot more than you would with caramel.

I can get Lyle's Black Treacle. A few days back in this thread someone nixed it for the style, Do you have an opinion of it for this use?

 

[BGHSmt7]

Pitching more won't cause issues on a typical homebrew batch. Just don't pitch like 8 packs lol

 

[patto1ro]

I can get Lyle's Black Treacle. A few days back in this thread someone nixed it for the style, Do you have an opinion of it for this use?

Er, not really the same as caramel, but it is a dark invert sugar.

 

[kev211]

pitching more won't cause issues on a typical homebrew batch. Just don't pitch like 8 packs lol

all the yeasties!!!! :d

 

[premington]

Pitching more won't cause issues on a typical homebrew batch. Just don't pitch like 8 packs lol

Excellent... Then I hope I'll be okay.

Just came from the brew store. The lady there said she matched up my Wyeast 1728 with what they sell, which is White Labs WLP028. She *said* it's the same yeast made by a different manufacturer. It's labeled "Edinburgh Scottish Ale Yeast". I hope what I bought is correct.

So I have one pack of 1728 and two packs of WLP028. She said the WLP028 isn't a smack pack. "Just let it get to room temp, then pitch it as is. You'll see the pack start to bulge when it sits at room temp."

Does this sound correct to all of you? Is it okay to use both of these together?

-Paul

 

[kev211]

Excellent... Then I hope I'll be okay.

Just came from the brew store. The lady there said she matched up my Wyeast 1728 with what they sell, which is White Labs WLP028. She *said* it's the same yeast made by a different manufacturer. It's labeled "Edinburgh Scottish Ale Yeast". I hope what I bought is correct.

So I have one pack of 1728 and two packs of WLP028. She said the WLP028 isn't a smack pack. "Just let it get to room temp, then pitch it as is. You'll see the pack start to bulge when it sits at room temp."

Does this sound correct to all of you? Is it okay to use both of these together?

-Paul

Shes correct about it not being a smack pack. The new packs have a semi-permiable membrane that allows Co2 out, but not in. So I let mine come up to room temp, shake the bejeezus out of them, cut and pitch.

I dont know about pitching them together. I doubt theyre the same yeast. But Im sure someone else can chime in and set you straight on that

 

[BGHSmt7]

It may not be the EXACT same strain, but it's like saying that 1056, WLP001, and US-05 aren't the same. It's close enough. Prolly collected from the same breweries.

The non-smack pack is fine. I use Omega yeast and it's not a smack either.

 

[bleme]

Shes correct about it not being a smack pack. The new packs have a semi-permiable membrane that allows Co2 out, but not in.

So you don't have to smack the new packs? I've only bought 1 smack pack and when I hit it, the bottom of the pack blew open and sprayed yeast on my leg. I haven't bought Wyeast since.

 

[kev211]

So you don't have to smack the new packs? I've only bought 1 smack pack and when I hit it, the bottom of the pack blew open and sprayed yeast on my leg. I haven't bought Wyeast since.

No, Im talking about the white labs packs. I dont use Wyeast. Just a preference/brand loyalty thing. Ive used WL since day one and love their product (and it doesnt hurt that they are 15 miles away from me). Wyeast you do have to smack as far as I know. But from what Ive read, its less of a smack and more of a squeeze.

 

[BGHSmt7]

Wyeast still sells smack packs, but white labs and omega don't.

I don't smack it (Wyeast), only find the nutrient pack inside and squeeze it against the counter until it pops inside.

 

[BGHSmt7]

You don't even have to smack it. It's just a nutrient pack. If you're making a starter, just pitch like the rest. It's a nice indicator if the yeast are kinda viable though.

 

[premington]

Wyeast still sells smack packs, but white labs and omega don't.

I don't smack it (Wyeast), only find the nutrient pack inside and squeeze it against the counter until it pops inside.

Glad to read this! The last thing I want is a lap full of yeast because I burst the bag! Will be activating it this evening in preparation for tomorrow's wort. :rockin:

-Paul

 

[Gerry_P]

Thanks Gerry,

I really don't care for overly hoppy beers. That bitter bite does nothing for me. Scotch ales and some super rich stouts are my favorite types of beer. I prefer them bold, rich, meaty, and malty!

This batch I'll boil this weekend will use Wyeast 1728. Do you have any recommendations on how to prep it? Should I create a starter, or just punch the pouch and let it sit for the morning, then pitch that?

Also, do you recommend any specific temp when pitching, or should I just follow the recipe, which recommends a temp between 70f and 78f?

Will check the recipe you linked now. Thanks for sharing it.

-Paul

Back in high school I became a beer snob because of Guinness, Bass, and McEwans, so I know where you're coming from. (I was grandfathered in DC, so when I turned 18 I could buy beer there legally. Not that I had a problem buying it in Maryland in 1986, but I digress.)

My not-the-most-scientific method: I make a 2 liter starter and pitch around 65. I pop the smack pack, let that expand, then pitch the entire contents. You probably don't need to pop the nutrient bubble, or whatever it's called, but I figure the extra nutrients couldn't hurt. I wouldn't pitch at any higher temp than 68 or maybe 70 tops for a Scotch ale.

The Mr. Malty calculator is great, but I just do 2 liter starters for 5.5 gallon batches and they've worked fine without worrying about specific cell counts. This is assuming your yeast is fairly fresh. Having said that, not too long ago I used a Wyeast pack that, due to age, was supposed to have 0 viable cells. I did a 2 step starter and it performed very well, although it was a brett blend (Wyeast Old Ale) and idk if that makes a difference in terms of viability. Maybe someone else can chime in on this....?

If you don't do a starter, you should probably pitch more than one packet. In that case I'd use Mr. Malty's recommendations to figure out how many you'll need.

Back in my noob days I'd just smack the pack and dump it in. My beer is a lot better now.

 

[BGHSmt7]

I agree. Using the one smack pack will technically work, but pitching more viable yeast cells will do nothing but help the beer along.

 

[BGHSmt7]

How's your brewday going?

 

[premington]

How's your brewday going?

Well, we've chatted in private mail, but having received this here, I thought I'd re-report it for others to read.

It went well, I think. Kept a close eye on sanitation with only two potential flubs. This is my first beer, so I hope they're not show stoppers.

When I put the boiled wort in the SS primary, the foam (from aeration) blocked me from seeing the level indicators (gallons). Not thinking, I used my fingers to scoop the foam away, but didn't touch the primary or the wort. Realizing the danger of my actions, I used a SS spoon to scoop the surrounding foam out and toss it. The other error was pushing the airlock too hard on the stopper. The stopper dropped into the beer. (I'm SURE I'm not the first to do that! Rookie mistake.) But, it had been soaking in a StarSan solution for an hour, so I'm hoping that won't cause any problems. I fished it out with the sanitized SS spoon.

Other than that, the SG was lower than the recipe (1.068 as opposed to 1.075-1.079). Caramelization went well, but took twice as long as the recipe reported (30 minutes compared to 15 minutes). Total boil time was 1-1/2 hours, not the 1 hour reported.

Beer is in the primary in a ~50f-something environment. Internal temp (I have a thermal probe in the fermenter) is 72.5f. I'm just waiting for the yeast to kick into gear.

Flavor was nice! A strong hoppy tang with a spicy body. Carmel notes were noticeably present. It's young, so I'm curious to taste how things change post fermentation and with aging.

Thanks to everyone here who provided advice. Being my first beer, I'm eager to learn and grow through the results I get from this batch.

-Paul

 

[Gerry_P]

Glad to read this! The last thing I want is a lap full of yeast because I burst the bag! Will be activating it this evening in preparation for tomorrow's wort. :rockin:

-Paul

I always put mine on the counter and smash it with the heel of my hand, like I'm trying to kill a gigantic bug. It's much more rewarding that way. No yeast pack explosions...yet...

 

[premington]

I always put mine on the counter and smash it with the heel of my hand, like I'm trying to kill a gigantic bug. It's much more rewarding that way. No yeast pack explosions...yet...

You know... I can see how someone might blow out the bottom of the pouch. I found the nutrient pack a bit difficult to burst. Giving it a hard whack left me concerned I'd burst the pack. I felt for the pouch inside and then leaned my entire body weight against it to get it to burst.

Doesn't seem like the greatest design, but I suppose they're trying to avoid the pack bursting in transit and with general handling.

 

[seatazzz]

I'm going to weigh in on the caramelization issue. I've done a Scotch ale twice; all grain, not extract, but the principle is the same. I took 1.5 gallons of the first runnings (1.075) and cooked it down on my induction plate. Got it to 1.2, added it with 10 minutes left in the boil. Not only did it up my SG to 1.080, it contributed a huge maltiness that was wonderfully dark and brown tasting. Tested it against a couple of commercial wee heavies and it was spot on. Should note also that it was a 90 minute boil to get the volume correct.

 

[premington]

I'm going to weigh in on the caramelization issue. I've done a Scotch ale twice; all grain, not extract, but the principle is the same. I took 1.5 gallons of the first runnings (1.075) and cooked it down on my induction plate. Got it to 1.2, added it with 10 minutes left in the boil. Not only did it up my SG to 1.080, it contributed a huge maltiness that was wonderfully dark and brown tasting. Tested it against a couple of commercial wee heavies and it was spot on. Should note also that it was a 90 minute boil to get the volume correct.

You caramelized a lot more than I did. My recipe called for 24 oz., which I caramelized down to raw syrup, reconstituted with hot water back up to the original quantity, then tossed it back into the main wort.

When you caramelized, how do you treat the reduction? I tried to use a thermometer to see what the hottest temp I was able to hit was. I wanted to get upwards of 350f, having read that conversion occurs in caramelization at around 350f. I think I need a candy thermometer... mine weren't able to report that high. So I brought it to a good boil. The rich syrup developed very fine bubbles, then I took it off, fearing I'd burn it. It didn't appear or smell burned.

Just curious how you approach caramelizing and how you know when you've hit your target in terms of knowing when to pull it off the heat.